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Mark Aldrich

Acrylic Paint Peel!!!!

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OK,

I decided to use acrylic paints to paint my camo on the Corsair! Having only used acrylics to paint touch ups and the occasional single tone tank model I had never need to mask. I laid down the light gray, masked with delicate blue tack and painted the Khaki and Blue. As I started to remove the masking, large amounts of tan peeled off the model. Some of the Khaki also peeled away. Now, if I am lucky, I can brush touch up and it will look like field applied repairs. This might work. However, if the paint doesn't cover well, I will have to re-tape and paint. Very nervous about this as I am afraid the Khaki and blue may peel off. Any tricks of the trade?

 

Badpaint.jpg

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And that is one of the many reasons I hate acrylics.

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The only way I,ve been able to mask over acrylics is to put a coat of Future on after the acrylic has dried well.

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If my Chapter member Bill Hunoway picks up on this, I'll let him describe the torture of trying to use MM Acryl Red on the lower hull of his Dragon USS Momsen DDG-92. He sanded and repainted five times because of the paint peeling problem. He finally had to use Post-IT Notes for masking. If some of you receive our May 2011 Newsletter, you can read all the gory details there in his lengthy review of the kit build. :smiley7:

 

Ed

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Rotten luck! But, that's why I've never used 'em either!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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No primer......But if I had primed, I would have used the light gray as the primer. These were Poly Scale because they were the only ones carrying IAF colors.

Edited by Mark Aldrich

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Yeah but if I used and acrylic primer I think the primer would have peeled as well. We'll see tonight. I painted the stripes last night and am going to try the touch up this evening.

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I only use acrylics for brush painting details. People have "tips" and "secrets" about how to airbrush them, but I can't be bothered. I make it a rule to NEVER mask them with anything. Even as the last top coat, they will peel off with the masking leaving a jagged edge. I know, you can ameliorate that by scribing the tape line before removing it, but can we make this whole process MORE involved?

 

However, if you must use them, make sure the plastic is squeaky clean first. Then primer with a flat NON-Acrylic primer that will "grab" the plastic. Then spray the acrylic. It will grab the dull finish of the primer better. Not great, but better. Then, if you must mask, use the lowest tack masking you can get a hold of. Then, before you pull it up, score lightly along the tape line before you pull up the tape. This breaks the bond with the tape itself.

 

You mention that Polyscale was the only one with the IDF colors. Personally, I'd rather go with an "almost match" from a non-acylic than use acrylics, but that's just me.

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Ron,

And I am sure when I get around to my Mustang and Spitfire.....That is exactly what I will do! To me it makes NO SENSE to primer with a non-acrylic just to be able to use acrylics. I am chalking this up as a learning experience (those are always good). I just hope I can execute a viable repair The black stripes on the yellow tail just look too cool to trash the whole plane.

Edited by Mark Aldrich

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There are three main problems that can result in peeling acrylic paint.

 

 

 

1. The surface is dirty. Usually the dirt is oil of some sort from skin, mold release, etc. Just wash the surface with soap and water then keep it clean and dry before painting

 

 

 

2. The surface is too glossy. Acrylic paint need some roughness or tooth on the surface to grab on to. Buffing or sanding the surface to remove any gloss takes care of this one.

 

 

 

3. The acrylic paint is over thinned.

 

 

 

Acrylic paint is made up of an acrylic polymer emulsion binder, paint pigment, a solvent (usually water, sometimes alcohol), and a small amount of conditioning chemicals (flow improver that makes the paint mixture less viscous, retarder that slows the drying, a fungicide to keep the paint from growing mold, a biocide, thickener, defoamer, etc.).

 

 

 

If too much thinner (water, alcohol) is added, the acrylic polymer becomes too dispersed on the surface; there is not enough acrylic polymer threads interweaving among themselves to properly grip the tooth of the surface. Using fabric as an example, good polymer dispersion looks like felt; poor dispersion looks like cheese cloth. Most acrylic paints should be thinned no more than 25% but usually 40-45% is still OK. I have found adhesion problems at 50%.

 

 

 

To make a thinner, more "transparent" paint mix without over thinning, stir in more pure acrylic binder by adding to the mix the paint's gloss clear (Future floor wax also is a good cheap "pure acrylic binder"). Acrylic paint gloss coat is just acrylic paint without the pigment. My current cheap airbrush paint mix is: Craft paint (like Creamcoat or Anita's), Future Floor Wax, and 70% rubbing alcohol mixed about 50:45:5. My quick mix procedure is to take 1 part paint, add 1 part Future and then add just enough rubbing alcohol to get my ideal airbrushing thickness.

 

 

 

Peeling paint could also result from over adding paint flow improver and/or retarder. These are available at art stores in the acrylic artist's paint section. I have experienced this problem myself but probably is not the issue here.

 

 

 

I have airbrushed my cheap airbrush paint mix onto the hulls of my plastic sailing ships then masked with blue painters tape and Tamiya masking tape and have not had paint peel. I have also been able to feather sand the paint edges to make repairs without peeling. I rarely prime plastic but do prime photo etch and resin.

 

 

 

Ultimately, the paint may need to be stripped because the remaining paint probably has the same issues.

 

 

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I don't understand the difficulty, so maybe I should just avoid further comment. I use almost exclusively acrylic paints and must be holding my airbrush right and modeling under the correct moon phase, because I simply don't relate to the problems being ascribed to them here. On the other hand, I find enamels intolerable due to thickness, orange peel, and refusal to dry. I love lacquers but loath mixing them. So.... I guess I can't add anything.

 

I don't, I should add, use acrylic primers. If I use primers at all, I use exclusively lacquers. I don't usually use primers though, unless the plastic is obviously going to be problematic. For instance, I don't use primers for most Hasegawa, Tamiya, or Monogram kits. I do use primers on short run kits.

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Well,

Thanks for all the input. I re-fired all the colors. Everything came out fine except I should have buffed or sanded over the previous paint peel. It is noticeable on the lower fuselage half. Oh well, live and learn. Thanks again for all the help tips and ideas. You should be able to see the latest pictures this weekend in the "Middle East Wars" Group build. Tomorrow I will cover it in Future and start the wash and decal application. The yellow and black striped tail really stands out.

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I've used Acrylic for quite awhile now. I always prime the model with oil base primer (usually MM rattle can). Never had a problem.

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About the non acrylic primers. TO me that kinda defeats the purpose of trying to go.......less hazardous chemical use. If I can't get the same results from acrylics that I can from enamels....why switch? I like the colors, like the kinda sorta easy to clean up. However, the acrylics I used required applied force to remove some. The paint seems to dry a whole lot faster than enamels do.

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About the non acrylic primers. TO me that kinda defeats the purpose of trying to go.......less hazardous chemical use. If I can't get the same results from acrylics that I can from enamels....why switch? I like the colors, like the kinda sorta easy to clean up. However, the acrylics I used required applied force to remove some. The paint seems to dry a whole lot faster than enamels do.

 

Mark,

 

You can use automotive spray can primer (krylon, duplicolor, plasticote) that doesn't take any special setup. Do the prep for a big batch of parts or even whole sub-assemblies, and then primer them all at once - working outside, in the garage with door open, etc. and still use a respirator. This stuff dries very smooth right out of the can, and if you do manage to get dust or texture in the finish it can be fixed with a little wet-sanding. Then take all your primered parts back to the bench and use your airbrush and acrylics at your leisure. I know several guys that use this basic system, and I'm moving that way myself.

 

Don

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I guess I mistyped. It isn't a health or dangerous chemicals issue that I don't like. It's the idea of not having to smell thinner fumes in the man cave. I have used acrylics in the past for touch ups and single colored paint jobs and have had no problems. I had never used them in multi-colored applications. I have a minor selection of colors (Games workshops makes some really cool ones) and should I use these Pollyscale colors to paint my Spitfires and Mustangs (when and if I do build them) I did not want a repeat performance. I guess it is like everything in model building. You clean as you go. Got some great ideas and I hpe to learn from this experience.

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I think your problem was not using a primer coat first. That gives the paint "tooth" to stick to. I use Vallejo's primer, then the color coat. I can mask almost immediately (with Tamiya tape, of course) with zero problems. Now, I'm careful to wash the model first before painting to remove finger oils, release agents, etc. Having had to use acrylics for years due to landlord issues, etc., I've grown to love the easy clean up and quicker drying times that comes with using acrylics. I've found that the Vallejo paints are the best acrylics out there. Their primer has a different formulation than their regular paints which makes it stick better to bare plastic.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dennis

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I will once again state that I must be either A: living right or 2: occupying some wrinkle in the time-space continuum where acrylics don't lift. They don't peel. They don't scratch. I use Tamiya, Testor Acryl, and what few PollyScale and Floquil Railroad Acrylics I can still find. I wipe the model down with alcohol and spray away. I don't prime unless I've done a major conversion. I've used blue painter's tape, Tamiya tape, and even frosty Scotch tape to mask. I often add Future to the mix, I don't know if that's it or not, since I was also getting great results when I used plain old distilled water with PollyScale. I use Testor's Acrylic Thinner with the Acryls and Tamiya's acrylic (not lacquer) thinner for their acrylics.

 

Ralph, acrylic paint user since 1982...

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I use Acrylics whenever I can, and like several who posted here, I've seldom experienced "peel". On those occasions when that problem manifested itself I have been able to correlate it to one of two issues. I have failed to clean off the bare plastic sufficiently or I've failed to prime the model. Of course, if one primes the model that seems to negate the first issue but properly cleaning the bare plastic is the real culprit, in my humble opinion.

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And I'll add my voice to the growing chorus of those who regularly spray acrylics with no issues. Since my return to modeling in about 2002 I've used acrylics almost exclusively. First Polly Scale or Polly S (WHATEVER the difference is/was) and now Tamiya. I tried MM Acryls and HATED them. They are the only ones I've used that peeled like (actually worse) the photo Mark originally posted. They were also much harder to clean up after. I started migrating away from Polly because of growing inconsistency from bottle to bottle. One bottle would spray fine, the next would be full of particles that needed to be strained, some would thin well with Windex, some clumped, and some weren't even compatible with their own thinner. I eventually ended up where today 95% of what I spray is Tamiya, which also means that 80% of what I spray is custom mixed colors.

 

However, I've had very few issues with peeling when I was using Polly, and that has continued through my transition to Tamiya. I almost NEVER prime, I almost always thin well past 50%, usually with 70% alcohol, and frequently mask with Tamiya tape within an hour of spraying a color, often within 15 minutes. Oh, I also don't go to much trouble cleaning the plastic first. If I think the surface of the model might be pretty grimy for some reason, I'll wipe it down with alcohol, but that's rare as well. Perhaps like a couple others have said, I'm living right, but if I am, I sure wish it would pay off in other aspects of my life! Come on Lotto!

 

My guess is that there is something with the plastic in the kit Mark, either that or something with that bottle of Polly. If you like the idea of acrylics, you might try Tamiya, but you'll be condemned to mixing colors if you find you like it.

 

Mike

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I have been using MM acrylic paints for some time and find they work great if you use a good lacquer primer such as tamiya fine grey or Mr Surfacer 1200. I used to decant the tamiya spray can primer until I read about using Mr Surfacer, I keep a 50/50 mix of MS 1200/Lacquer thinner in a small jar ready to spray. This seems to prepare plastic as well as resin very well to receive most brands of acrylic paint. I let the primed parts dry at least 24 hours! This also a good rule to follow with any paint. I also thin my acrylics with 70% alchohol. I believe this stuff is one of gods gifts to modelers! Its cheap, speeds up the drying process and can be used for cleaning parts prior to primering, thinning acrylics, general cleanup and thinning Future. A coat of Future is a good preventive against paint peel also. Again, let it dry a least 24 hrs.

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I'm not a fan of Acrylics unless I have to use it. Prefer the enamels over all the rest. I love the smell of thinner in the morning... :smiley29:

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5 words - Tamiya acrylics thinned with lacquer - though that doesnt solve your need for IAF colors.

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I use Acrylics whenever I can, and like several who posted here, I've seldom experienced "peel". On those occasions when that problem manifested itself I have been able to correlate it to one of two issues. I have failed to clean off the bare plastic sufficiently or I've failed to prime the model. Of course, if one primes the model that seems to negate the first issue but properly cleaning the bare plastic is the real culprit, in my humble opinion.

 

I agree with Dick. I use Polly Scale, Tamiya and Model Master Acryl acrylics. I don't prime but I do spend extra time cleaning the model before painting. I find the best way to prepare a model for acrylic painting is to use PollyScale Platic Prep. For masking, I use either Tamiya's masking tape or drafting tape. The low tack helps avoid paint lifting.

 

-Jesse

 

 

 

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Boy, do those pictures remind me of my USS Momsen build. As Ed Wahl stated that was a build/paint from you know where. Anyway, I have been using MM Acryl without problems since they came out. I never had a problem. I never primed, cleaned surfaces. Now on to to Momsen. I painted that lower boat hull 5 times. I could not get paint to stick to it. After the 5th time I was ready to sink her with all hands on board. It then occured to me to to try something different. I painted the upper hull first and then the boot stripe. Leaving the lower hull alone this time, I used post-it notes above. Since I wasn't taping over the red this time I was able to finally cover the ship's hull. I finally got it together and it is now docked on my shelf. After this adventure in model painting I think I might have had a bad batch of Acryl Red paint. The upper surfaces were masked off OK with no tear out. The post-it's worked perfectly without worrying too much about to much adhesion. In conclusion, you might have just had a bad batch of paint.

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