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OOB Rules ???? for ya


Mark1268
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Ok, so I have a newbie to OOB questions.

1. If the instructions do not show seatbelts. Can I still make seatbelts from the instruction sheet??

2. If the instruction sheet shows rigging. What can I make the rigging out of?? (Stretched sprue??) And this also goes for Antennas?

2a. So if I can stretch sprue. Can I stretch sprue to make hydro, brake and other lines. 
 

Basically, as long as I use what is in the kit, I can make whatever I need to detail my kit. As long as it comes from the kit.

Thanks for the response and clarification.

 

Mark

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I was under the impression  that Out of Box should mean exactly that! 

Was OOB set up to see how well someone could build and paint a kit as it comes and only use the decals supplied?

However, I am very aware that this can vary from a straightforward kit devoid of extras to a fully loaded kit that includes masses of detailing extras all included.

A difficult one to judge as I would imagine that OOB was originally set up to level the playing field and  just purely judging how well built a model  is regardless of any inaccuracies inherent in the kit itself.

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1). Paper or masking tape belts are fine.  What is not allowed are manufactured belts

2).  Rigging & antennas as shown on instructions or box art are allowed.  May be either stretched sprue or wire

2a).  Adding piping or brake lines to an OOB built us not allowed, whatever the material. 

Aftermarket decals/alternate markings are always allowed

Jim Clark, head AC judge, was supposed to be looking at the AC OOB rules in light of the multi-media included in many modern kits (vis Eduard Profipak vs Weekend)   Perhaps aligning them similar to Ships Single Media/High Tech

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Actually, OOB is no more difficult to judge than any other category. Because our competitions are based on craftsmanship, accuracy is not the primary consideration. Any kit, well assembled by paying heed to the judging standards explained in IPMS Competition guidelines (alignment, seams, painting, decal application, etc.) will be competitive. And, as has been pointed out many times on this Forum, the more detailed and advanced the kit, the more opportunities there are to make mistakes.

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge 

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OK gentlemen. First let me specify yes, I am talking about aircraft in this particular instance.

Noel Smith-I agree OOB means OOB. As long as I use the materials inside the kit, that should be OK regardless of what I do with them.

EFGrune-questions for you. White tape? Tape doesn’t come in the kit? I can make seat belts from the kit instructions. Why wire? Wire and tape do not come in the kit. Why can I not use the instructions to make seatbelts, and stretched sprue to make in antenna wires. Which brings me to, why am I not allowed to make brake lines and or piping inside wheel wells, cockpit and such as long as it is stretch sprue from the kit. And I get it, you’re allowed to use aftermarket decals. But why that didn’t come in the kit.

Nick Filippone-I agree. The model should be clearly judged on craftsmanship only. I.e. alignment, seams, painting, decal application. That’s the way all categories should be judged in the beginning. But with out of the box. Again why are we not allowed to use what is inside the box to make items that we feel should be made or added to the kit. As long as it comes from inside the box. OK, I’ll go with the aftermarket decals that’s not a problem. I understand some kit decals really such.

thanks for listening. And I’m really not trying to start anything. I just want to know because I like to add extra stuff. But I will make it myself with the items inside the kit if need be.

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Should figures included with the kit be judged for the quality of workmanship? A Tamiya armor kit with three figures included in the kit is entered in out of the box. How does this all interact with the diorama rules?

Dak

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3 hours ago, Rusty White said:

Download the national rules from the web site and look under III. SPECIAL CATEGORIES (pg 3).  Your questions will be answered.

I have and they are as clear as mud. Can I stretch sprue and make rigging, antennas, brake lines, hydro lines??? Why am I allowed to use tape to make seatbelts??? Sorry the rules are not that clear.

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I think this category causes more questions than any other, but in my mind it is pretty clear.  Build the parts that came in the box, according to the directions in the box.  Add any paint or decals you would like and you are okay. Try to tap dance around the rules and you are not.  If the instructions tell you how to build rigging or seatbelts, follow the instructions and your fine.  

Granted IPMS category rules have some exceptions by class but you push the boundaries  of these at your own risk.  

Last, keep it simple and show off your basic modeling skills. 

Edited by PeteJ
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With the predictability of Haley’s Comet- only, mercilessly, annually, instead of a more sufferable once every 76 years- we endure, yet again, the OOB rules debate. The why’s and wherefore’s have always been and always will be grist for mill that endlessly grinds on our Forum, as we strive mightily to plumb the arcane and inscrutable raison d’etre of OOB.

But, as Pete and Rusty have said, the rules are plain and they create a level playing field. Just apply them as you build your entry and you’ll be fine. If you think they should be changed, the National Contest Committee is always willing to listen to suggestions. 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge 

Edited by Nick Filippone
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This debate has opened up the inevitable can of worms.

But as I see it, apart from paint, Out of the Box should mean exactly that including the kit decals, even if the decals suck as one poster said. If the decals are a bit naff then it should just be a part of the OOB challenge.

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Given the design of modern kits and the instruction sheet, combined with the limited time for judging, a builder can get away with all sorts of stuff that violates the letter and spirit of the rules. If someone traded out some parts from a better kit, who would notice? I would bet you could replace a kit cockpit with aftermarket resin and no one would catch it. When the model is done and painted, can you tell the parts are three or four plastic ones or one big resin one?

Personally, I think OOB is obsolescent in this day and time. It does create more categories for contestants, but we could do that anyway.

Dak

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How do kits like the ones from Eduard that come with resin, PE, and all the other goodies factor in? It’s all included in the box. Something of an unfair advantage compared to a basic all plastic kit.

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Actually, more detail parts in a kit makes it HARDER to compete in contests, because there's more things you need to get right. Judge enough and you'll see plenty of anti-gravity photoetched seatbelts, resin sidewalls pulling away from the fuselage sides, and badly-cut vacuformed canopies. Detail parts give you more ways to screw up. 

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Dak has made a point that some people might use non kit parts and possibly get away with it as it might not be spotted. Yes, I agree with what he says as judges cannot notice every subtle nuance in a model by such practices. I would like to think that no IPMS member would cheat to gain an advantage in a competition. But if it did happen and the cheat won, then it would only be a hollow victory for them and nothing to be proud of as they would have done a more honest modeller out of their rightful recognition. Unfortunately those sort of people have no conscience and are thankfully in the minority

Dak's other question about included figures. If they are in the box as part of the kit then they are OOB as far as the build should be concerned.

At IPMS UK SMW Telford the OOB entries rules state that the instruction sheets to be displayed with each model in that section. Does something similar happen with OOB in the USA Nationals?

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I believe that the assumption that someone will cheat seems a little misplaced.  Yes, there are those who cheat, but then that can happen in all categories not just OOB.  "Group" builds shown as the work of one person.  Using parts painted by another is a common complaint in auto categories.  And so on.  However, I would like to believe that the vast majority of people who enter, play by the rules.  I often think the the accusations of "he cheated" is the sour grapes of a looser in the tight contest.  The basic tenant of Nationals is that people will be honest and play by the rules.  

 

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Sorry about “opening this can of worms”. I’ve never built just OOB. So I had questions, I didn’t know there was such controversy over it. 
I also agree that in today’s day and time, with the kids that are out there, that ad for the witch and brass items. These kids have a unfair advantage over say a monogram 48 scale mustang from 1970’s.

But again, sorry for stirring up the hornets nest.

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Mark, you have not stirred up a hornets nest, just asked a few questions for which you wanted answers. Basically you were looking for clarification about the OOB category about what is allowed or not,

As Pete said that the tenet of the Nationals (and for that matter any other competition) is that people generally are honest and abide by the rules.

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On 12/20/2020 at 5:56 PM, Mark1268 said:

I have and they are as clear as mud. Can I stretch sprue and make rigging, antennas, brake lines, hydro lines??? Why am I allowed to use tape to make seatbelts??? Sorry the rules are not that clear.

I agree, and to give credit where credit is due, that is as good as the NCC can come up with considering so many variations and new kits coming to market.  I would suggest emailing the appropriate head judge or the Chief Judge (nationals or regional contest) for a more definitive answer.

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2 hours ago, Rusty White said:

I agree, and to give credit where credit is due, that is as good as the NCC can come up with considering so many variations and new kits coming to market.  I would suggest emailing the appropriate head judge or the Chief Judge (nationals or regional contest) for a more definitive answer.

The other alternative--one I favor, and one I've discussed on this forum before--is to limit out of box models to being just that--out of the box.  Period.  No added seat belts, rigging, spark plug wires, etc., unless it comes in the kit and is shown on the instruction sheet.  Aftermarket decals should be allowed, but that's as far as it really should go.  

People then argue along the lines of "well, the model will seem to be lacking if I don't add seat belts" or "it won't be accurate if there are no railings" (that one still confuses me, since, last time I checked, accuracy was not a judging criteria).  My answer?  Entering out of box is a decision the modeler makes.  You have consciously decided to limit what you can and cannot do if you decide to enter OOB.  Don't like the limitations?  Then simply don't restrict yourself by entering OOB--enter the "Open" categories and let the chips fall where they may.  To be sure, I have seen OOB models win categories over a dozen fully detailed models because, as Chris points out, the more stuff you add, the more opportunity there is for mistakes. 

As far as multi-media "high tech" (aka ProfiPack, etc.) go, the work around is as Ed pointed out--split them into traditional (all plastic) and mixed media.

 

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People who knowingly cheat don't care if the victory is "hollow". However, I do not automatically assume anyone is cheating. I am just making the point that the complexity of modern kits makes it extremely easy to change or add detail without being noticed. Also, models today are much easier to build as "correct" or as award winning models than those from the early days of OOB forty years ago.

What is the point of OOB any longer? Originally, it was to give people a chance to compete without having to rebuild half a model just to be on even ground. Now days, that is no longer the issue. Here is an OOB Tiger except for the figures. Zimmerit, single link tracks, engine deck screens, closed sponsons, and gun breech were not available in the basic kit forty years ago, but are now standard features.

The Albatross is a WNW kit out of the box except for the machineguns which are Gaspatch. Would anyone notice if I didn't say anything?

Dak

DSC05759.JPG

OPEN SKY_6375.jpg

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I agree with Dak that the very small minority of people who cheat would not see their victory as hollow, but it does not alter the fact that it is.

Ralph's suggestion that OOB should be exactly that. I only disagree with him about aftermarket decals that in my mind would cease to make the model OOB.

OOB is NOT ABOUT ACCURACY!    Many kits are inaccurate, particularly older ones. The whole idea of OOB that seems to be missed by some is that it is purely a test in basic skills in model building a kit as it was intended to be built by the manufacturer. Judges will not be looking at all about how accurate the kit is, just how well.made and painted.

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Well let’s face it, some people are trophy or award hounds. They are competing to win at any cost. There is no such thing as a hollow victory to them, only a victory. I have heard them drone on and on about a perceived imperfection on a build that beat out their build for the win. And the winning kit was very deserving of the win and award. To not win is inconceivable to that individual. And it spoils their ability to appreciate the fine work of others. 

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14 hours ago, noelsmith said:

I agree with Dak that the very small minority of people who cheat would not see their victory as hollow, but it does not alter the fact that it is.

Ralph's suggestion that OOB should be exactly that. I only disagree with him about aftermarket decals that in my mind would cease to make the model OOB.

OOB is NOT ABOUT ACCURACY!    Many kits are inaccurate, particularly older ones. The whole idea of OOB that seems to be missed by some is that it is purely a test in basic skills in model building a kit as it was intended to be built by the manufacturer. Judges will not be looking at all about how accurate the kit is, just how well made and painted.

I would disagree that OOB is a test of basic skills, at least the way the rules are today.  Originally, I think it came about because there were a bunch of people who didn't want to do the extra detail to be competitive in the main categories. At least that what was told to me by the people behind it in the eighties.

Now days, most of my work is done 90% OOB because the things I wanted to add---like periscopes and engine deck screens (on tanks)--are now standard in the kit. I think OOB is a waste of time as it is. If you want to keep it, then make it strictly out of the box and that includes decals. If it is a test of skill, then let the competitor deal with crappy decals. Every little exception begets another.

Dak

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Yep!      Out of the Box should be strictly OOB that includes any crappy decals and therefore just a pure test of model building, painting and decal application.   So David I am 100 percent with you on that one!

Like you, many modellers build 90 percent OOB and add extra details to enhance their models. At SMW Telford that is classed as kit detailed or something very similar. I would imagine the US Nationals  has a similar class category for this.

The IPMS UK competition rules can be downloaded from their website if you want to have a look and make any comparisons out of pure interest. I would imagine they would be very similar to the USA comps rules.

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