More Resignations

[Highlander]

One of the criticisms of the NCC and its supposed entrenchment is that it is entrenched because it did not adopt the changes I want made to the way I believe things are done  Or that the NCC should stop doing things the way I think they are doing them ... even if they are not being done that way.

Much of the discussion of the supposed failings of the previous NCC are based upon a lack of knowledge about the conduct of a National Contest and the former NCC's composition, processes, and procedures.  Not to mention lack of knowledge of the rules, the categories, and guidance to entrants.

There is the observation about leading horses to water and then watching them die of thirst. An example, presented over and over and over in these last months is the assertion that the former NCC decided the National Contest rules.  And the assertion continues .... no matter how many times it has been pointed out that the EBoard approved every single rule.

 

[ghodges]

As of THIS date, AFTER the passing of the last batch of amendments last fall, the NCC (whoever that is or will be) DOES indeed WORK FOR the Eboard.

Ron is correct in that "technically" it has always been that way... BUT the Eboards of the past were SMART ENOUGH to take advantage of the NCCs experience and let them operate autonomously. 

As it stands now, IF THIS CURRENT Eboard insists on directly managing/bossing the NCC, I know I will never be a part of the judging corp again under ANY system or in ANY capacity.

As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Nats have ALL been successes and grown larger for the last 10+yrs, yet they see the need to try to "fix" it. They're wrong in their approach to both that and their relationship with the NCC as it now stands. 

I consider that a separate issue from any perceived rules changes, contest changes, NCC make-up, or IPMS image changes; as the financial health and therefore IPMS's future depends largely on the Nats.

And for those of you who are for MORE control by the Eboard as compared to in the past.... I must disagree and stand against your ideas.

Gil 

[Bert]

Here is an email I received. I'm assuming all members received it too.

From time to time, and often each year, positions on the National Contest Committee (NCC) become open.  This Committee consists of Class Head Judges who oversee judging at the IPMS/USA Convention.  The E-Board and NCC would like to solicit help from the IPMS/USA membership to establish a data base of experienced judges who can help in the future, not only as Class Head Class Judges but also as Class Judging Assistants or Check Judges to help the Chief Judge verify winners in the larger classes. 

If you are interested in volunteering and  have 5 or more years of judging experience (with 10 or more years being preferred) at IPMS/USA National Contests, please email Dick Engar, Current Head Judge/Chair of the NCC, at hemperipod@hotmail.com. Please include your name, IPMS/USA membership number, your area(s) of expertise in judging (aircraft, military vehicles, figures, etc.), as well as past experience judging at local or regional levels.  We would also be interested in knowing what type of leadership positions you have held in your local Chapter, if any. Please note, you must be planning to attend the 2024 IPMS/USA National Convention in Madison, Wisconsin (and future conventions) to be considered.

Having a database of applicants allows us to more easily vet and assign qualified candidates to help out or serve in Head Class Judging positions, etc. that we might not otherwise know are willing, able and interested.  We look forward to hearing back from you!

IPMS/USA Executive Board

National Contest Committee

It's a done deal folks. The Eboard is moving on.  I wonder though, presently, who ARE the NCC? 

 

[Highlander]

5 minutes ago, ghodges said:

,,,
As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.,,,

How about this.

If you break it, then you will be able to fix it.  You hope.

Edited January 20 by Highlander

[ghodges]

The Eboard will try to move on..... and rather than just blather here, I tossed my name into the ring to be considered.

BUT..... IN MY APPLICATION I ALSO SAID I WOULD ACCEPT NO APPOINTMENT WITHOUT A SIGNED STATEMENT FROM THE EBOARD THAT THEY WOULD NOT "BOSS" THE NCC, AND LET IT REVERT TO WHERE THEY WORKED THROUGH THE CHIEF JUDGE, AS BEFORE.

As I said above... I'm willing to work towards making changes in IPMS and help if I can, but I will not work FOR them, like some lacky. We'll see who will step up to work for them if they don't loosen their hold on the NCC. While I believe there will be good people with good intentions, I don't see how any "new" NCC can have the experience needed for Madison. Hopefully, for IPMS's sake, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, after all, I'm married!  😉

Gil 

[CaptainAhab]

Having the authority doesn’t automatically translate into using the authority, as was pointed out, past e-boards had more authority then they chose to exercise. Even if it is, there are many options for using it that don’t involve force. This board and future ones have the same choices, I have never found heavy handed leadership to work very well, and never found it motivated people.
 

What was the line from Inidiana Jones when the guy grabbed the shiny  babble covered goblet, “ he chose poorly….”

[RONBO]

17 hours ago, ghodges said:

The Eboard will try to move on..... and rather than just blather here, I tossed my name into the ring to be considered.

BUT..... IN MY APPLICATION I ALSO SAID I WOULD ACCEPT NO APPOINTMENT WITHOUT A SIGNED STATEMENT FROM THE EBOARD THAT THEY WOULD NOT "BOSS" THE NCC, AND LET IT REVERT TO WHERE THEY WORKED THROUGH THE CHIEF JUDGE, AS BEFORE.

As I said above... I'm willing to work towards making changes in IPMS and help if I can, but I will not work FOR them, like some lacky. We'll see who will step up to work for them if they don't loosen their hold on the NCC. While I believe there will be good people with good intentions, I don't see how any "new" NCC can have the experience needed for Madison. Hopefully, for IPMS's sake, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, after all, I'm married!  😉

Gil 

Gil, I put my name in for consideration for the pending R5 coordinator opening. I rather be a part of the Society for as long as I can. I realized that I can offer something rather than yelling from the sidelines. 

The last 5 months I really thought it was time just to let my membership lapse. But following this thread has made me reconsider that. I wish you luck in your possible E- board appointment. We have to in it to win it. I can hear Bruno yelling at me as I  type. But with you and some like minded members I think and hope that this ship can be righted. 

Let's get thru Madison and reset this abomination and put the train back on the track. Then we will see how this will go. I willing and somewhat able to make a difference on a local level. 

Time to think about local chapters to stay in the Society there has been rumblings about tagging out and at my age I can be a Walmart greeter for IPMS.

Ron Ronbo Thorne Jr. 

Head Bottle Washer. 

[ghodges]

I talked to Bruno a couple of weeks ago and he yelled at me too!  😁😁😁

If we quit, they win! Besides... as I stated somewhere else.... at this point I'll stay in IPMS JUST to make them squirm with my every post!  😉

Thanks to you, and to anyone else willing to step up to at least try to help and/or work at bettering IPMS and to repair the damage done last summer!

 

Gil 

[dhamilton]

"I talked to Bruno a couple of weeks ago and he yelled at me too!" 

I put my name in the same hat too!! He hasn't yelled at me yet!! 

[Bert]

Just read over the revised "rules" for the Nat'l Convention Contest. Here is part of a section relating to judging.

Models are judged as three-dimensional objects and are examined in all aspects.

Entries will be carefully handled by judge both for category placement and for judging as required.

Too bad this wasn't acknowledged before the eboard pissed off category head judges that so many of them resigned after it was proclaimed on the IPMS/USA website that models will not be handled.

[patd]

Exactly, The head judges and team leaders and team members had these questions...

1) How do we do splits?

2)How do we expand a category?

3) How can you possibly judge a model from afar if it is in the back row?

It appears the judging staff had no input in this decision, or if they did it was dismissed. Social media pressure along with some provocative photos won the day. And here we are-no new head judges yet for some categories and we are 6 months out from the convention. Normally the head judges would be getting an idea of how their teams would be put together with respect to possible attendance not only of the judging corps but also the admin folks to assign judging teams, do the splits, etc., etc. All the behind-the-scenes stuff that makes conventions run smoothly.

Edited January 21 by patd

[noelsmith]

This thread has made interesting reading with quite lengthy posts. The US Nats really do revolve around the competition, more so than in the UK SMW show. The exhibition centre at Telford shuts the doors at 6pm on the Saturday, no exceptions. On Saturday when the competition is run all the pre booked entries have to be on the table by 11 am. Judging takes place within a very tight time frame on that afternoon so the area can be opened up for viewing once the results are in. We do not have the luxury of judges to be able to work late into the night as in the US Nats whilst making their deliberations and moving models into their correct categories from modellers who have not took the time to read and understand the rules. At Telford they get disqualified. Period. Draconian but necessary given our judges time scale to work in on the afternoon.

As for judges picking up models in cotton gloves and using a torch magnifier to inspect underneath them? Well that appears to be a bit OTT to me. We are judging scale models not inspecting micro chips. And by its nature, lifting any model puts it at risk of being dropped!

I would think that the local chapter organising Madison are getting some sleepless nights with all this going on.

The UK Competitions Secretary is on our EC, but has complete autonomy in running the competition and pulling competent judging teams together without interference from above but support when asked for.

Edited January 22 by noelsmith

[patd]

Interesting about Telford, Noel. It is on my bucket list for sure. Everyone who i know that has attended has just positive comments. Can't talk for all category judges but the aircraft judges spend some time moving models to the correct category. Every time we do we try to add a note on the judging sheet saying why the model was moved, so that also takes up a minute or two. Even when the category card says Aircraft: 1/48 Axis Radial you may find a P-47 parked there. As one of our team leaders says, "Reading is Fundamental!" The IPMS is not quite as draconian as Telford usually leaving the registration open almost until it is time to start the judges meeting. Not unusual at all to return from the judges meeting and find something placed in the wrong spot at the last moment. One of the larger problems is Basic Kit Build (the offspring of OOB) models not having the instructions included, if not the model has to be moved to the correct non-BKB category, (and a note left on the registration sheet) so they can still be judged.

As an aside at the judges meeting it is usually specified that you shall judge the model with a normal pair of reading glasses, opti-visors, electron microscopes, and surgical magnifiers are frowned upon. You do not need to see the atoms on the model to adequately judge it. Many venues do have poor lighting and sometime if needed a small pen light is used but no Leigh Lights....In judging usually (!) models are only handled by the team leader with gloves and only, if necessary, although the model is brought forward from the back row to be seen clearly and given a fair judging.

Edited January 22 by patd

[ghodges]

I've never like the cotton gloves! I always felt like I had less feel and grip when using them, and less confidence and more anxiety with them on.

I suggest IPMSUSA provide nylon types of gloves, which give better tactile feel and grip, while still providing protection from skin oils and fingerprints.

I too hope to make Telford, and generally have heard nary a negative word, except for trouble being able to get a hotel room anywhere near due to its popularity!

 

Gil 

[noelsmith]

Gil and Pat, it you can get over here to Telford I think that you will both be very impressed and very welcome. Our show attracts many visitors from Europe and beyond. In one of the halls there are tables from a number of different country's IPMS organisations promoting themselves too. Lots of traders, special interest groups and local UK club tables on show.

The hotels in the immediate vicinity do get booked up but there are ones to be found within an hour's drive, as I guess you would hire a car for your visit. Birmingham and Shrewsbury are two cities that are fairly close for hotel accommodation. And of course there are many museums, castles, stately homes to visit in the UK.

[Dick Montgomery]

Noel is absolutely correct! I've been to the Telford Convention only three times and each visit was a fantastic experience. The convention center is massive, with food service, restrooms, lounge areas where one can sit down and relax for a while, and good lighting. Noel mentioned that the hotels in Telford are usually filled to capacity and that happens very early, in fact, some book their rooms in the Telford hotels before departing from the convention currently under way.
In 2018 the three gents I traveled with and I stayed in the Prince Rupert Hotel in Schrewsbury. Schrewsbury is a very short and enjoyable train ride from Telford, and the tickets were inexpensive. The walk from the Prince Rupert to the train depot was under 10 min, and when arriving in Telford the Convention had hired a shuttle bus to transport us from the train station to the Convention Center. Even the walk is only about 15 to 20 minutes.
If you have the time and transportation be sure to visit the RAF Museum-Midlands located near Cosford. The drive from Cosford to Telford is about 15 minutes. The museum is spectacular!
You can enter the contest (IPMS membership required) but it must be done prior to the event and not onsite.
Contest entries are uniformly stunning!

The SIG displays are awesome and the SIG members manning the tables are friendly and informational.

A Telford visit should be on everyone's bucket list!

[noelsmith]

Glad you and friends enjoyed our SMW show Dick.

Shrewsbury where you stayed before is quite an interesting historical city to stay in whereas Birmingham is a more cosmopolitan large city. Stafford is another town fairly close that I didn't mention before.

 

[WasatchModeler]

On 1/19/2024 at 11:48 AM, CaptainAhab said:

Nobody “works” for anybody in this organization! We are all volunteers, and as such don’t “answer” as such, to anyone. In any professional or volunteer organization I’ve been involved with committees are organized this way:

* A chairman, for the NCC that is the chief judge. The chief judge (chairman) has ALWAYS been approved and appointed by the president and e-board, and reports back to them on committee operations. It has ALWAYS been that they can be dismissed and replaced at the presidents/e-boards discretion.

* The committee members, for the NCC those are the head category judges. They report to the chief judge (chairman). The chief judge (chairman) appoints them and can dismiss and replace them.

* The NCC develops the rules and operating parameters for the contest and is responsible for all contest operations. The rules are updated yearly and GIVEN TO THE E-BOARD FOR APPROVAL, the e-board then can approve or not, ask questions, ask for changes, etc. Sure, they might get pushback and resistance, they had the ability to do the same.

That is how the constitution was written, BEFORE the resent changes. No committee I've ever been involved with had the entire committee reporting to the entity that organized it (e-board), it was always the chairman that was the go between. I don’t know how past boards viewed their authority, or used it, but it was there. 

That is what I meant

 

[WasatchModeler]

On 1/19/2024 at 3:37 PM, CaptainAhab said:

Cameron, I have hired a good number of consultants and consulting firms over the years, and I always required all of them to show years of experience in the field/subject I wanted evaluated and/or studied, consultants are usually people with years of experience in their field and transition to consulting, firms are the same but may have a spread of experience. The same is true when it comes to us, the head judges for Madison will not be bring “new” or “old” ideas to the contest, they will be following the rules that were just posted for Madison. As Gil has pointed out, due to some of the head judges starting “cold” and really last minute by planning and organization standards, experience is important, and honestly I believe it always is. 
 

Presenting ideas is a tricky deal, first my advice would be before you present at an open meeting, shop your idea(s) around, and not just with your immediate group of modelers, I’ve fallen into the same situation where I thought I had a good idea and presented it without thoroughly researching if it had a history of working or not already. Experience can be a double edged sword, it gives you a deep history of past and present, what has worked and what has been tried and didn’t work, what is feasible and what isn’t, and you can come across a little impatient and jaded when “new” ideas that you have heard before come up. It’s unfortunate you were laughed at, but hopefully you understand that we are not in an environment where there is as strict control, as there would probably be in a paid employees environment, over interactions between people. In my case I took it as a learning experience, and found that prior preparation and presentation techniques made a huge difference.

Experience is important but it is not the only value I would look at.  Vision would be one we are lacking.  Innovative is another.  See ipms is consulting inside the organization instead of consulting someone like smc mmsi or others to get what makes them successful.  

[ghodges]

Vision..... that is a good question to ponder for the future of IPMSUSA.

To begin, I completely disagree with the "2030 Vision" proposed my ex-Eboard member Rob Booth. I disagree with its basic premise of growing and expanding the Eboard and also with the idea of being ALL inclusive and trying to appeal to ALL modelers, instead of targeting PLASTIC modelers. I also vehemently dislike its ideas of Ethics Committees and "periodic training" to educate the membership as to what they should think according to IPMS and to be an IPMS member. And it's not just a problem of "philosophy".... creating more board positions, more committees, and more tasks for both creates more work and the need for more people in a volunteer Society that has a tough time finding enough qualified people now. The entire thing is designed and offered as if IPMSUSA is some sort of corporation with "employees" instead of paying members, vast resources, and a much larger budget than it has.

That said, I agree that there HAS to be a solid vision proposed going forward that while allowing for change, secures and preserves the things that have served IPMS well and that have been proven to work. It needs to be simple enough going forward so that when one Eboard eventually steps down the next can easily pick up the reins and continue that work. And it has to be a vision with LESS direct control of of our membership, not more.

Consult "outsiders"? Why? What other group? Anyone else we might look at has a singular advantage over IPMS: they all have a vested appeal to ONE group. NNL serves CAR  modelers and doesn't worry about pleasing aircraft and armor builders. AMPS attracts armor builders and isn't concerned with including sci-fi builders. A show like Wonderfest is targeted at figure and sci-fi modelers and only include VERY limited categories for "others" out of politeness, and not in order to attract them to the show. IPMS, on the other hand, has to try to appeal to ALL PLASTIC model builders.... and THAT in and of itself is a big disadvantage because most modelers just aren't interested in genres they don't build themselves. THAT limits who we can appeal to, even within the plastic modeling community itself.

We do indeed need a vison going forward. But FIRST we need to decide HOW big we really want to be, and then exactly WHO we want to target to join us. That will hopefully tell us IF we need to change and HOW MUCH we need to change. Then we can seriously consider our options that give us the best chances to achieve those goals.

But I can say that having been a member of what has been a solid, successful hobby group like IPMSUSA for almost 50yrs, that we need to be very careful not to destroy WHO WE ARE in trying to be something we were never designed to be to begin with.... a club that welcomes every sort of non-plastic model builder like the 2030 Vision proposes.

 

Gil 

Edited January 24 by ghodges

[WasatchModeler]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:13 PM, patd said:

Interesting about Telford, Noel. It is on my bucket list for sure. Everyone who i know that has attended has just positive comments. Can't talk for all category judges but the aircraft judges spend some time moving models to the correct category. Every time we do we try to add a note on the judging sheet saying why the model was moved, so that also takes up a minute or two. Even when the category card says Aircraft: 1/48 Axis Radial you may find a P-47 parked there. As one of our team leaders says, "Reading is Fundamental!" The IPMS is not quite as draconian as Telford usually leaving the registration open almost until it is time to start the judges meeting. Not unusual at all to return from the judges meeting and find something placed in the wrong spot at the last moment. One of the larger problems is Basic Kit Build (the offspring of OOB) models not having the instructions included, if not the model has to be moved to the correct non-BKB category, (and a note left on the registration sheet) so they can still be judged.

As an aside at the judges meeting it is usually specified that you shall judge the model with a normal pair of reading glasses, opti-visors, electron microscopes, and surgical magnifiers are frowned upon. You do not need to see the atoms on the model to adequately judge it. Many venues do have poor lighting and sometime if needed a small pen light is used but no Leigh Lights....In judging usually (!) models are only handled by the team leader with gloves and only, if necessary, although the model is brought forward from the back row to be seen clearly and given a fair judging.

And apparently from this discussion they are bare handed and lifted to eye level as well...

[WasatchModeler]

1 hour ago, ghodges said:

Vision..... that is a good question to ponder for the future of IPMSUSA.

To begin, I completely disagree with the "2030 Vision" proposed my ex-Eboard member Rob Booth. I disagree with its basic premise of growing and expanding the Eboard and also with the idea of being ALL inclusive and trying to appeal to ALL modelers, instead of targeting PLASTIC modelers. I also vehemently dislike its ideas of Ethics Committees and "periodic training" to educate the membership as to what they should think according to IPMS and to be an IPMS member. And it's not just a problem of "philosophy".... creating more board positions, more committees, and more tasks for both creates more work and the need for more people in a volunteer Society that has a tough time finding enough qualified people now. The entire thing is designed and offered as if IPMSUSA is some sort of corporation with "employees" instead of paying members, vast resources, and a much larger budget than it has.

That said, I agree that there HAS to be a solid vision proposed going forward that while allowing for change, secures and preserves the things that have served IPMS well and that have been proven to work. It needs to be simple enough going forward so that when one Eboard eventually steps down the next can easily pick up the reins and continue that work. And it has to be a vision with LESS direct control of of our membership, not more.

Consult "outsiders"? Why? What other group? Anyone else we might look at has a singular advantage over IPMS: they all have a vested appeal to ONE group. NNL serves CAR  modelers and doesn't worry about pleasing aircraft and armor builders. AMPS attracts armor builders and isn't concerned with including sci-fi builders. A show like Wonderfest is targeted at figure and sci-fi modelers and only include VERY limited categories for "others" out of politeness, and not in order to attract them to the show. IPMS, on the other hand, has to try to appeal to ALL PLASTIC model builders.... and THAT in and of itself is a big disadvantage because most modelers just aren't interested in genres they don't build themselves. THAT limits who we can appeal to, even within the plastic modeling community itself.

We do indeed need a vison going forward. But FIRST we need to decide HOW big we really want to be, and then exactly WHO we want to target to join us. That will hopefully tell us IF we need to change and HOW MUCH we need to change. Then we can seriously consider our options that give us the best chances to achieve those goals.

But I can say that having been a member of what has been a solid, successful hobby group like IPMSUSA for almost 50yrs, that we need to be very careful not to destroy WHO WE ARE in trying to be something we were never designed to be to begin with.... a club that welcomes every sort of non-plastic model builder like the 2030 Vision proposes.

 

Gil 

Correct me if I am wrong.  It sounds like you do not want our maybe care about having a bigger organization.  Are you worried that if we are more inclusive that they will become the main event and traditional plastic models becomes a side event? 

Seeing what other events,  even visiting quilt con as I have,  to be successful will make us more successful.  What I hear is that successful to you is Catering to the current membership and making them happy.  Not worrying about growth.  

Is there a way I can see the 2030 proposed vision? 

 

[patd]

Only if you believe the social media. I would suggest that you attend the OJT class and  do some judging and I think that your opinion would change after a few years of judging and get to see what goes on at the judging on Friday night, not all like what some would want you to believe.

[WasatchModeler]

56 minutes ago, patd said:

Only if you believe the social media. I would suggest that you attend the OJT class and  do some judging and I think that your opinion would change after a few years of judging and get to see what goes on at the judging on Friday night, not all like what some would want you to believe.

I have judged 3 years so far and am a chapter president.  Also,  sometimes all you need to see is the final product to know that there is issues with the process.

[patd]

Excellent! Please stick with it. Also, I must agree with your last sentience. I do think just about any judge at some point will admit that a tightening up on the judging process can only lead to more consistent results and a reduction in some criticisms. There will ALWAYS be some dissatisfaction with the results in any competition, goes with the territory, but a consistent judging standard is certainly worth striving for.