patd

Excellent! Please stick with it. Also, I must agree with your last sentience. I do think just about any judge at some point will admit that a tightening up on the judging process can only lead to more consistent results and a reduction in some criticisms. There will ALWAYS be some dissatisfaction with the results in any competition, goes with the territory, but a consistent judging standard is certainly worth striving for.

Only if you believe the social media. I would suggest that you attend the OJT class and do some judging and I think that your opinion would change after a few years of judging and get to see what goes on at the judging on Friday night, not all like what some would want you to believe.

Interesting about Telford, Noel. It is on my bucket list for sure. Everyone who i know that has attended has just positive comments. Can't talk for all category judges but the aircraft judges spend some time moving models to the correct category. Every time we do we try to add a note on the judging sheet saying why the model was moved, so that also takes up a minute or two. Even when the category card says Aircraft: 1/48 Axis Radial you may find a P-47 parked there. As one of our team leaders says, "Reading is Fundamental!" The IPMS is not quite as draconian as Telford usually leaving the registration open almost until it is time to start the judges meeting. Not unusual at all to return from the judges meeting and find something placed in the wrong spot at the last moment. One of the larger problems is Basic Kit Build (the offspring of OOB) models not having the instructions included, if not the model has to be moved to the correct non-BKB category, (and a note left on the registration sheet) so they can still be judged. As an aside at the judges meeting it is usually specified that you shall judge the model with a normal pair of reading glasses, opti-visors, electron microscopes, and surgical magnifiers are frowned upon. You do not need to see the atoms on the model to adequately judge it. Many venues do have poor lighting and sometime if needed a small pen light is used but no Leigh Lights....In judging usually (!) models are only handled by the team leader with gloves and only, if necessary, although the model is brought forward from the back row to be seen clearly and given a fair judging.

Exactly, The head judges and team leaders and team members had these questions... 1) How do we do splits? 2)How do we expand a category? 3) How can you possibly judge a model from afar if it is in the back row? It appears the judging staff had no input in this decision, or if they did it was dismissed. Social media pressure along with some provocative photos won the day. And here we are-no new head judges yet for some categories and we are 6 months out from the convention. Normally the head judges would be getting an idea of how their teams would be put together with respect to possible attendance not only of the judging corps but also the admin folks to assign judging teams, do the splits, etc., etc. All the behind-the-scenes stuff that makes conventions run smoothly.

Just a question on contests: I sometimes wonder if the anti-competition thing is more of a generational attitude? Perhaps some do not want their work critically looked at, but that is how judging works. That is fine if that is their cup of tea. Some people enjoy the competition, yes there is always some tough competition and perhaps cut-throat attitudes but in almost 20 years of judging I have not seen to much of it. One thing is certain-after every nationals there is always discussion about what won and didn't win, it goes with the territory. I fully believe that both being a judge and competition tend to make on a better modeler. Even with G/S/B do anyone really believe that will lead to less disappointment and less verbal rancor among those not to win a medal? How does one differentiate between the highest Silver and the lowest Gold? It would be just like the judge's judgement in 1/2/3. The judges are trained what to look for, we have a lot of corporate knowledge among the judging corps, throwing all that out would be counterproductive. The more experience one has doing something usually the better one gets at it. We have OJT set up to bring in new judges and if they stick with it after a while they may become team leaders and in turn school the new OJT folks. The system works much like an apprenticeship the older experienced hands showing the newer judges the ropes, so to speak. I must say that the NCC and Convention Directors must be doing something right as it appears to me that the 'Nats are more and more successful. If the IPMS held a convention with just display only, vendors and no awards, or awards banquet, would it be successful? I think if more people would volunteer to judge those 3-4 hours on a Friday night it would be an eye-opener for many as to what really goes on. I have seen a team spend the entire time on one category where the competition was close and the category was well subscribed. They certainly applied themselves and were not dismissive of any entry. I have heard many a team leader remark at the end of judging as to how hard it was.

Allow me to throw another crab claw into the IPMS Gumbo here about picking up models. I was handling the admin of the A/C tracking sheets, which teams were out, what was already judged, etc. with the help of another judge at San Marcos. During a lull in the A/C judging while the teams were out on the second round of judging I was approached by the head A/C judge to see if I could help someone out who was vetting A/C models for the one of the special awards -the "Semper Fi Aircraft" award. I went over to the gentleman who told me that he would like to get a look at the underside of the model (I assume to break a tie with another model). I put on my gloves and picked the model up CAREFULLY(!) so that the judge could see the underside. When he was finished looking the model over, I placed the model back on the table and returned to my admin duties. Later at the awards ceremony I found out that that model had won the "Semper Fi "award, so I guess picking it up allowed the judging to break a tie. I am also thankful that someone did not take a photo of this least it wind up on F/B with me being a pariah! ☹️ Most judges I know really do not like picking up models, me included, however in cases like doing splits it is unavoidable as well as having to move a model into the proper category. In San Marcos some of the tables were so full that models were just placed near the category until the judges could make room for them. I am still amazed at how much space 1/32 modern jets can take up! Pat D

I must agree that that photo was posted as an intentional effort to damage the IPMS and the judging corps. Up until Sam Marcos the only people I ever saw taking photos of the judging in progress was for the IPMS magazine. To be honest posting the photo had the same effect as an outboard motor in a cesspool, it was meant to raise a stink and start a controversy as if ALL models were handled this way by the judges. It was sophism. If I may make a couple of points: I have been on the A/C splits crew since 2005, in San Marcos the head A/C judged approached us about doing the splits late Thursday night after the room had closed as with the crowds in the room and more expected Friday we felt that trying to move the models into the proper categories would be very difficult. The head A/C judge had made arrangement to keep the lights on and for the splits crew (6 judges plus the head judge) to have access to the contest tables where the A/C were displayed. We as a group probably moved 300 models that night setting up the splits, cataloguing the nomenclature of the splits and doing the house keeping things like making sure BKB builds had the instructions, extending the categories table space and if necessary moving categories to where there was sufficient expansion room for more entries expected Friday. NO models were damaged during the splits reorganization in San Marcos, and we finished up about 12:30 AM. The next day we delt with whatever came pointing them to the correct category right up until registration closed. Over the years IF a model is damaged by the splits crew or in judging the person responsible leaves a signed note and usually the head A/C judge initials the note. IF a model is damaged it is NOT held against the modeler in judging nor are transport breakages On judging night there are gloves available should a model have to be handled and usually it is the team leader that handles the model ONLY, if necessary, and rarely; models are 3-dimensional object and sometimes looking at the bottom of a A/C can be the tie breaker. One may have noticed that more and more A/C modelers are placing their pieces on mirrors, easier to see the bottom and easier to move for splits. I can say with certainly that the models are moved and handled by the splits crew and judges as if it was their own model. In some cases, if there is a crowd one member of the splits crew will walk ahead of the model holder making sure no one runs into the mover. In some cases, if the model is very delicate or large we will try to find a way to leave it in position and rearrange other pieces around it. It is almost impossible to judge a model if it is in the back row of the contest table and the model has to be moved up front to be adequately seen by the judging team, in order to fairly appraise the model. I also am of the opinion that more models are damaged by lanyards, camera straps and people leaning over the tables and hitting something, or people walking around the room with no situational awareness as to the proximity of the models to themselves and each other and bumping and leaning on the tables, or transit damage than any damage from judging. The other categories, armor, auto, ships etc. take just a much care with their splits and judging as I have observed with the A/C judging in almost the last 20 years. Pat Donahue

Gil sez: "Where the NATS CONTEST is concerned, I believe change there should be driven only by the attendees, and not the general membership, since MOST members never attend the Nats. The FACT is that the Nats has consistently grown and thrived under its current 1-2-3 format; like that or not (and I'm a GSB guy myself). ANY Eboard who wants to play around and mess with that winning formula/money maker for IPMSUSA and the clubs that host it is NOT serving IPMSUSA's best interest; and THAT is exactly what THIS Eboard has done. Any changes there should be tweaks and not wholesale overhauls, as it's something that has worked well and grown MORE successful over the last 20yrs. Is there room to experiment within the current contest format? Yes.... I believe so.... but again... IPMSUSA has a first obligation to protect what has worked before committing to anything unproven in wholesale fashion. Overall, since the majority of IPMS members have no interest in the Nats, the NCC, or its contest; I think they should have little to say in how it's run and leave that up to those who attend and participate in the Nats and those directly involved with its administration and running it." Yes! The Nationals have become more and more successful over the past years. Face it almost 3000 models in San Marcos when it was 106 F outside, a real well run show, ditto Columbia, Chattanooga, Phoenix, etc,etc. Newer categories like BKB are very well subscribed, and we are seeing more and more splits in heavily subscribed categories, due to the organizers looking ahead. Years ago, in aircraft you could see categories with 40+ models in it and judging till the midnight hours. Now the general trend is to try to keep a category about 20-25 models, true it always does not work out but it the splits crew and Head A/C Judge try to head it that direction, and it pretty much winds up in that area. All of the A/C judging except for Best Of is done by 10-10:30 and most of the judges are released. The vendors rooms are packed. So I think the basic formula works and I also think pushing the contest to evolve into something else may in fact dissuade the people who come and make it successful. I hear much gripping about the IPMS being stuck in the past, the NCC is not relevant, etc. The amount of models on the tables and the crowd around those tables seem to render a different verdict. As time goes on it may evolve into something else but it will only work if it can attract modelers. There always seems to be some type of controversy after a 'Nats and no matter what shape the convention evolves into (if it does) THAT is never going to change. All in all for a volunteer run convention I think the society does pretty well, and those who take on this task should be applauded. Pat D

Brett, we also had some wobbly tables in the aircraft category. Leaning against tables looking closely at an aircraft or elbows resting on the tables being used to steady a camera had them moving slightly. One had to be careful as the tables were really packed with entries.

I am glad that we got to hear the side of the story from one who was accused of wrongdoing. To have people exonerated from any perceived wrongdoing then 2 weeks later totally reverse the ruling certainly makes the powers that be look confused. I am a senior National judge for going on 20 years and can also state that it is HEAVILY emphasized at the mandatory judges meeting by the head judge that if you see ANY perceived impropriety report it IMMEDIATELY do not wait to the next day or next week or whatever. If there is a problem the judges will be interviewed and if necessary the category will be rejudged. Thats why we have Check Judges to spot these problems. Once those judging sheets go to the tally team it is pretty well carved in stone. It is also called out in the judges meeting for judges to stay in the area as they may be needed to judge another category or be asked about a problem that the check judges have found. At the total end of judging the head category will release the judges and or have the team leaders stand by for "Best Of" nominations depending on how that class does things. I sincerely hope that the powers that be can do a hard reset on all of this out of the megaphone of social media. The judging system works, true not everyone wins a trophy but as it is set up it works. I think if the rules laid out in the judges meeting were followed this would have been handled THAT night by the appropriate checks and balances and not in the podcast / social media spotlight in hindsight. Pat Donahue IPMS 5261

Tangential to this conversation, but I have felt for a long time that if the IPMS membership wants to give out more trophies then raise the entry fee slightly and buy more trophy packages hence more splits equals more trophies. If you have 30 models in a category with 1,2,3 obviously only 3 will win but do a split to 15 and you have doubled the 1,2,3 chances-ASSUMMING one can do a meaningful split-not an easy task in many cases. 1/72 axis inline =probably no problem. 1/48 civil, sport and air racing= not so sure. Having said THAT as a member of the splits team I might regret it.😜 I also have doubts how an GSB can work on a scale of the Nationals, right now judges are volunteering to do 3 hours of judging on a Friday night however will they also be sanguine about doing 3 or 4 sessions lasting 3 to 4 hours over the 3 days of the convention? 3000 models is a lot to look at and I think our current winnowing out process works well in the 1,2,3 awards. I quite agree going GSB vs, 123 is not going to stop people complaining about the judging that will be with us till the end of all contests. It is good to remember that EVEN if you do everything right you may still not win--ask Drew Brees!

"Most of the NCC may have quit, but it wasn't because they're "not getting their way" anymore. It's because they've been spit on by the current Eboard. It's because despite offering some compromises to the Eboard they've had that hand slapped away and been handed edicts instead. It's because they've essentially been told their experience and knowledge is no longer needed or wanted AND that their years of past service to IPMS (in some case DECADES of service) doesn't count for anything with this current Eboard. They're not getting mad and quitting because they're in a snit. They're washing their hands of a situation where they no longer have any say." ^THIS^ There is a lot of corporate memory among the senior judging people: How the split methodology works, `How to assemble the judging teams, How to handle Q/C problems, How the paper work trail to Eileen Persichetti works, to name a few. 20 years ago, the A/C judges were judging until the early morning hours, now with the exception of the Best A/C the judges are finished by 10 P.M. or so. All this has happened while the conventions have become more and more successful, and with larger model turn outs (IIRC 800+ A/C alone in San Marcos) so they have to be doing something right. If the EBoard does not get a handle on this and enough of the senior people go then a lot of the knowledge as to how and why the conventions work as well as they do is going to go with them. I wish that a reset could be done and this could have been handled out of the social media environment. I have been judging since 2005 and IMO judging have improved by a factor of magnitude. Yes there have been Q/C problems and as Jim alluded to above if we had to the category was re-judged and Q/C'ed again. 6 judges moved a probably 300 models Thursday night setting up splits and putting misplaced models into the correct spots nothing was broken to my knowledge. One of the secrets why the A/C judges finish early-all the splits are done and waiting for the judges to get to work after the judges meet at 6P.M. A lot of good people volunteer their time and effort in all the categories to make these things work seemly are being told now that they have been doing it all wrong. I think this is a slap in the face to those who have worked really hard to make the conventions successful. Pat Donahue IPMS 5261

I think the room block reservations were handled as fairly as possible. As Nick said with the amount of enthusiast crowd we have all wanting to stay at the same place not everyone can be guaranteed a room. I got lucky and went on at 00:00:15 and got in but was prepared to go down the road a bit to find a place to get my head down if necessary. As an aside if the 'Nats are held in smaller towns with a smaller hotel near or co-joined to the convention center this may be something we will face more in the future, especially as most of us wish to stay at the convention hotel. I think the convention hotel had a total of 285 rooms and the IPMS has basically taken over the hotel with a 260-room block. I would imagine it will be harder and harder to have conventions like ours in big cities due to the space required and the cost factor. I was told by a friend who is most familiar with these things that it would be unfeasible to hold an IPMS convention in a city like New Orleans due to the cost and space constraints for example. Hopefully everyone will be able to obtain a room

Nicely done! With that gun pod and the weapon loads it screams Marine. Love the crisp color demarcation on the intake lips, weathering and panel wash. My compliments. Pat D

Brian, if you see this please contact me via a P/M Thanks! Pat Donahue IPMS 5261

For Highlamder: Alas poor OOB! I knew him well, David. A category of infinite problems, of most excellent confusion It hath borne me on the contest table a thousand times; and now, How grand in my imagination it is. Apologies to Sir William Pat D

With all due respect I think if more IPMS members READ the rules carefully and the preamble to the rules defining BKB much of this self-inflicted confusion and frustration would go away. The rules are written in the King's English and are pretty cut and dried, trying to parse the meaning and find loopholes that are not there is a waste of time. If anything, the new BKB rules are much clearer than the OOB rules ever were. Basically, if it ain't there or on the instruction sheet you can't add it. Provisions were made for certain cases like some armor or motorcycle models where non-plastic media is used to support the structure or are needed to assemble it (screws & bolts, metal chassis). No offence intended to anyone, but this is not that hard to build and compete within these rules if one desires to do so. Pat D

For 30 years this has been an ongoing debate and I seriously doubt that any change could come anywhere near to being agreed upon by the membership. How many would actually vote? How long would we debate it? Seems the 30-year debate on OOB showed that. Could we even come to a consensus? I rather doubt it. It would be our version of the 100 years' war. I think going to the membership on this would be like herding cats. Pat D

Rocky , I think you are O.K. with BMF from the BKB basic guidelines: A. Finish. All painting/finishing techniques are allowed. Insignia, markings, and instrument panels may be hand-painted instead of using decals. Weathering is permitted. I think using BMF can be considered a finishing technique.

True, it would be a long drive home after finding out you built a model for a non-existent category Yikes!

I understand what you are saying Ed, all I am pointing out is that the rules say: "kit" which I agree is an unassembled item. Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. My hope is that all this is clarified before too long, I shelved an OOB (BKB) kit because the kit had P/E which in effect eliminated one of my entries, with the way I read the rules, the 'Nats will soon be here in 5 months and some of us build more slowly. Also, as one who works with the split teams in A/C the more clarification the better when we have to decide if an entry is eligible under the BKB rules. I fear some will show up at the contest still thinking OOB rules are still valid, true, ignorance of the rules is no excuse, but I do hope contestants do look at the new rules before starting a build, as to not show up for a disappointment. Best, Pat

You may have a point here, David. I am just quoting the rules and in the beginning of the rule change where the reasons for BKB are laid out we have this: ● Second, to compete at a more basic level, knowing that basic modeling skills are the only difference-maker - not what variety of detailing materials is supplied by the kit manufacturer, nor by after-market detailing sets, nor by using more advanced re-building or scratch-building skills. IF the NCC defines 'KIT" as the unbuilt model in the box OR if it means the completed "KIT" on the table then we have an answer with regard to not using extra goodies in the box. If I may be precise, the definition of a kit from Merriam-Webster a set of parts to be assembled or worked So when the rules say a kit I take it to be the unassembled contents of a kit box not the completed item on the contest table Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. Perhaps someone from the NCC can elaborate on this matter? On a more personal level when we do the splits: if the instructions show P/E then will the vetting/judging teams will have to ascertain if only the plastic parts were used, or will there be a disclaimer on the entry sheet? Interestingly some highly detailed kits are available for BKB on the aircraft end, the Tamiya P-38 and F-14 come to mind, no etch or resin included. Weekend kits in most case would also qualify, and they have decal seat belts to boot. Pat

No that is allowed: From the rules. As a general guideline, kit parts that are necessary to complete and support the overall structure of the completed model are allowed. However, other kit parts that provide enhanced surface-detailing to a completed model will not be allowed for a BKB entry. A. Examples of other material parts that will be allowed are: kit-supplied vacuum-formed windscreens/canopies/windows for Aircraft and Automotive models; kit-supplied rubber/vinyl tires and poly-caps to retain wheels and/or parts attached to pylons; metal gearboxes and/or metal-rod axles for Armor and Automotive models.

That is the way I see the rule written, Michael. If I use a new Tamiya Spitfire or Eduard Zero which includes P/E it is not eligible, but if I use a bare bones Eduard weekend kit with just plastic and decals I am in good shape for BKB. Pat

Ed, I do not understand this. The rules say if P/E etc. is INCLUDED the kit is ineligible for BKB. From the new BKB rules... Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. I take the word "KIT" & "INCLUDED"" to mean what is in the box not what is in the completed model What am I missing here? Thanks, Pat