More Resignations

[CaptainAhab]

7 hours ago, WasatchModeler said:

That is what I meant

Good, then you understand that the NCC always reported (answered to?) the president and e-board, the chief judge could be replaced by them if they chose, and the chief judge could replace head judges if they chose too. Past e-boards “chose” to give the NCC autonomy to run and conduct the national contest, that also means the last e-board, as well as the current one, received the rules, and approved them. 
 

As for whether an event is successful or not, where is the data to show the national convention is not successful? What are the benchmarks? If it makes money? How many people attend? In our case how many models are displayed? Keep in mind that the IPMS National convention was started as a gathering of members for members, as are most organizations annual conventions, its main purpose is that, not to be a non-member event, it has changed over the years to “open” it more and more to non-members and the public. The contest is still members only, and it has concisely gained popularity based on the number of entrants and entries. So I am at a loss as to what would be considered more successful?

[ghodges]

Cameron remarked (to my post):

Correct me if I am wrong.  It sounds like you do not want our maybe care about having a bigger organization.  Are you worried that if we are more inclusive that they will become the main event and traditional plastic models becomes a side event? 

Seeing what other events,  even visiting quilt con as I have,  to be successful will make us more successful.  What I hear is that successful to you is Catering to the current membership and making them happy.  Not worrying about growth.  

Yes, you are reading me correctly...

I am NOT in favor of growth JUST for the sake of growth....

I am NOT in favor of courting paper model builders, wooden model builders, RC builders; over trying to attract PLASTIC model builders. Each of the others have their own societies and clubs. Do WE have the right to go to them and expect THEM to change to accept us? No.... and thus if they want to join IPMS, they have to be willing to accept IPMS as a PLASTIC model group that either limits or excludes their participation at some levels (like the Nats contest, NOT at LOCAL club meetings).

I AM in favor of catering FIRST to the current membership, who PAID US to DO SO. Go figure! That is what I meant by tempering any future changes to be sure we're not throwing away what works or destroying who we are; which is PLASTIC model builders. And as a paying member, I expect our Eboard to take care of MY needs ahead of "potential" members who may or may not join. RETAINING current members is a higher priority than "growing".

I AM in favor of growth, but in two specific ways, and I don't care what the eventual size ends up at:

1) Look at what we can do to KEEP members from dropping/lapsing their membership and get past members who didn't renew to look at us once more and join again. In other words, look at what changes and perks we can offer to "IPMS" members, current and past. Grow IPMSUSA by first keeping more of our members for longer time periods.

2) Target the vast majority of PLASTIC model builders everywhere who never joined IPMS and may not even know about us. We made need to make some changes for them and offer more "bang for the buck" to do so, but at least they're a group with a like interest, as opposed to train hobbyists or your quilters (and I doubt you'll find crocheters welcome to display at the quilting show, by the way!)

Doing both of the above has the potential to substantially grow IPMSUSA from its steady 4000+ membership to probably 5-6000 or more, and is much more realistic because it targets people familiar with us as well as those with the EXACT same interest.

If that sounds like I'm a bit less inclusive, or even inclusive ONLY to PLASTIC modelers for growth, then you ARE reading me correctly! I am NOT for "diversity" for the sake of being politically correct and do not feel the need to appeal to other types of model builders, as much as I might enjoy and even envy their skills.

Gil 

[WasatchModeler]

What defines a successful show.

If our only goal is to make money then we are successful.  When you start to compare to other countries you can get a picture of how successful we are.  Compare to Telford and they have much more success.  And their countries population is much less.  

Another interesting comparison is the growth.  We have nearly the same amount of members as we had a decade ago.  

[WasatchModeler]

41 minutes ago, ghodges said:

Cameron remarked (to my post):

Correct me if I am wrong.  It sounds like you do not want our maybe care about having a bigger organization.  Are you worried that if we are more inclusive that they will become the main event and traditional plastic models becomes a side event? 

Seeing what other events,  even visiting quilt con as I have,  to be successful will make us more successful.  What I hear is that successful to you is Catering to the current membership and making them happy.  Not worrying about growth.  

Yes, you are reading me correctly...

I am NOT in favor of growth JUST for the sake of growth....

I am NOT in favor of courting paper model builders, wooden model builders, RC builders; over trying to attract PLASTIC model builders. Each of the others have their own societies and clubs. Do WE have the right to go to them and expect THEM to change to accept us? No.... and thus if they want to join IPMS, they have to be willing to accept IPMS as a PLASTIC model group that either limits or excludes their participation at some levels (like the Nats contest, NOT at LOCAL club meetings).

I AM in favor of catering FIRST to the current membership, who PAID US to DO SO. Go figure! That is what I meant by tempering any future changes to be sure we're not throwing away what works or destroying who we are; which is PLASTIC model builders. And as a paying member, I expect our Eboard to take care of MY needs ahead of "potential" members who may or may not join. RETAINING current members is a higher priority than "growing".

I AM in favor of growth, but in two specific ways, and I don't care what the eventual size ends up at:

1) Look at what we can do to KEEP members from dropping/lapsing their membership and get past members who didn't renew to look at us once more and join again. In other words, look at what changes and perks we can offer to "IPMS" members, current and past. Grow IPMSUSA by first keeping more of our members for longer time periods.

2) Target the vast majority of PLASTIC model builders everywhere who never joined IPMS and may not even know about us. We made need to make some changes for them and offer more "bang for the buck" to do so, but at least they're a group with a like interest, as opposed to train hobbyists or your quilters (and I doubt you'll find crocheters welcome to display at the quilting show, by the way!)

Doing both of the above has the potential to substantially grow IPMSUSA from its steady 4000+ membership to probably 5-6000 or more, and is much more realistic because it targets people familiar with us as well as those with the EXACT same interest.

If that sounds like I'm a bit less inclusive, or even inclusive ONLY to PLASTIC modelers for growth, then you ARE reading me correctly! I am NOT for "diversity" for the sake of being politically correct and do not feel the need to appeal to other types of model builders, as much as I might enjoy and even envy their skills.

Gil 

That helps me understand more.  I never said that the way to grow is to be more inclusive to other hobbies like rc. You are right.  That would not work.  I am interested in getting more scale modelers interested.  I was saying to go to other organizations and see what works well for them. Not ask the railroaders to join us.  

Yes.  Let's try to come to a solution that does not expel 2000 current members to gain 1000. But staying where we are is rarely a viable option.  

What do you mean that we should not be diverse in order to be politically correct? Do we not want women to be welcome? 

 

As far as running it like a corporation, we have an image for one that can be ruined by someone doing something wrong. That is why you have ethics committees and policies.  Also,  we can be held liable so there is that. 

Hopefully that clears my position but I am eager to learn more about yours. 

[CaptainAhab]

10 hours ago, WasatchModeler said:

What defines a successful show.

If our only goal is to make money then we are successful.  When you start to compare to other countries you can get a picture of how successful we are.  Compare to Telford and they have much more success.  And their countries population is much less.  

Another interesting comparison is the growth.  We have nearly the same amount of members as we had a decade ago.  

Honestly, I don’t believe the goal is to make money, if anything it’s to break even, any profits are a bonus split between national and the chapter(s) hosts, luckily it seems we rarely lose money. So you could call that aspect a success.

I'm sure IPMS/UK’s convention is great, in my opinion any model event is great. My question is what makes you think Telford has “much more success”? Or other countries? Is it the number of models there, the number of people attending? I’m not seeing that other large scale model events have more success than us in those areas. It’s not fair in my opinion to compare Telford and our convention as to the size of the country, you can drive to Telford from anywhere in the UK in less than a day. The problem is defining success, what makes it successful can be different from person to person. 

I agree, the fact the membership stays about the same has been a question for a long time. I would really like to see the actual number of that turnover every year, people leave and just as many people join, every year. I agree that retention is a good goal, what would be the increase in membership if they stayed members.

[CaptainAhab]

12 hours ago, ghodges said:

Yes, you are reading me correctly...

I am NOT in favor of growth JUST for the sake of growth....

I am NOT in favor of courting paper model builders, wooden model builders, RC builders; over trying to attract PLASTIC model builders. Each of the others have their own societies and clubs. Do WE have the right to go to them and expect THEM to change to accept us? No.... and thus if they want to join IPMS, they have to be willing to accept IPMS as a PLASTIC model group that either limits or excludes their participation at some levels (like the Nats contest, NOT at LOCAL club meetings).

I AM in favor of catering FIRST to the current membership, who PAID US to DO SO. Go figure! That is what I meant by tempering any future changes to be sure we're not throwing away what works or destroying who we are; which is PLASTIC model builders. And as a paying member, I expect our Eboard to take care of MY needs ahead of "potential" members who may or may not join. RETAINING current members is a higher priority than "growing".

I AM in favor of growth, but in two specific ways, and I don't care what the eventual size ends up at:

1) Look at what we can do to KEEP members from dropping/lapsing their membership and get past members who didn't renew to look at us once more and join again. In other words, look at what changes and perks we can offer to "IPMS" members, current and past. Grow IPMSUSA by first keeping more of our members for longer time periods.

2) Target the vast majority of PLASTIC model builders everywhere who never joined IPMS and may not even know about us. We made need to make some changes for them and offer more "bang for the buck" to do so, but at least they're a group with a like interest, as opposed to train hobbyists or your quilters (and I doubt you'll find crocheters welcome to display at the quilting show, by the way!)

Doing both of the above has the potential to substantially grow IPMSUSA from its steady 4000+ membership to probably 5-6000 or more, and is much more realistic because it targets people familiar with us as well as those with the EXACT same interest.

Gil 

I agree with this.

[Ron Bell]

As to making money, due to IPMS' Federal tax class status, it has to be very mindful of how, and how much, money it makes.

[WasatchModeler]

5 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

Honestly, I don’t believe the goal is to make money, if anything it’s to break even, any profits are a bonus split between national and the chapter(s) hosts, luckily it seems we rarely lose money. So you could call that aspect a success.

I'm sure IPMS/UK’s convention is great, in my opinion any model event is great. My question is what makes you think Telford has “much more success”? Or other countries? Is it the number of models there, the number of people attending? I’m not seeing that other large scale model events have more success than us in those areas. It’s not fair in my opinion to compare Telford and our convention as to the size of the country, you can drive to Telford from anywhere in the UK in less than a day. The problem is defining success, what makes it successful can be different from person to person. 

I agree, the fact the membership stays about the same has been a question for a long time. I would really like to see the actual number of that turnover every year, people leave and just as many people join, every year. I agree that retention is a good goal, what would be the increase in membership if they stayed members.

So telford gets about 10,000 over the weekend not over the week.  I was looking at more of memberships as a per capita. Not the show.  But it would be interesting to overlay the uk over Madison and see how many attendees attend.  

[Ron Bell]

I might have missed something, but where does the attendance figure of 10,000 for the two days of Scale Model World come from? 

[WasatchModeler]

25 minutes ago, Ron Bell said:

I might have missed something, but where does the attendance figure of 10,000 for the two days of Scale Model World come from? 

https://www.shropshirestar.com/entertainment/telford-entertainment/2017/11/13/scale-modelling-show-returns-to-telford/

[CaptainAhab]

4 hours ago, WasatchModeler said:

So telford gets about 10,000 over the weekend not over the week.  I was looking at more of memberships as a per capita. Not the show.  But it would be interesting to overlay the uk over Madison and see how many attendees attend.  

I think it would be a great help to track the numbers from the Nat’s for other than registration. It would really help to understand members vs. non-member participation. This was from the final report for San Marcos;

There were 958 registered IPMS members, thats 19% of our 5000 members. Unfortunately walk in day passes are not included, I believe those far outnumber registered members, and a good amount are IPMS members who don’t want to register for the convention, but the numbers have never been published so we don’t know.

IPMS/UK has just over 4000 members, I don’t know Cameron, I read the article you linked, and I’ve looked at lots of photos and videos of the event, I’m just not seeing that kind of crowds, I too would find it interesting and helpful to see harder data on the numbers then “about 10,000 people are expected” news reports, that goes for the IPMS/USA convention too. 
 

Regardless of all that, in my opinion the convention is a success already, a bigger success would be getting more existing members to attend, but I think that means overcoming the travel and cost of issues involved, and in that regard I’m not optimistic.

[noelsmith]

Michael's mention that anyone in the UK can drive to Telford within a day, true, but completely overlooks the fact that many of our visitors travel from all over Europe to visit the show.

The IPMS National Convention is aptly named at it tends to be more parochial in nature due to the vast size of the USA and very few being able to make a transatlantic or transpacific journey to attend. So it tends to be more 'in house' as it were.

SMW on the other hand is a more international event due to the UK's location close to the rest of Europe.

Both events have their own ways of doing things simply due to their respective locations. To a certain extent, I think the UK has a bit of an advantage using the same venue annually and being hired by the Executive Committee and not having to move to a different venue each year and relying on more local organisation. Not sure if a central regular location would work in the States as there would be so many pros and cons to discuss if iit were ever were to be considered. Wherever your convention falls there will be folk who will have to travel vast distances to attend regardless, so maybe a central location might just work and folk attending would be able to budget annually for it not wildly fluctuating in cost to them each year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by noelsmith

[Ron Bell]

Noel, Another difference in how the shows are run is in the staffing. SMW and IPMS/UK for that matter, has had great leadership continuity. That is of immense help in planning a show as people are familiar with their roles, each other and the venue. You don't have to "re-invent the wheel" every year. 

I've only missed 3 or so SMWs since 2000. It is a very different atmosphere than the IPMS/USA show but the heart is the same, modeling. Oh, and the beer is better.  

[BWScholten]

17 hours ago, WasatchModeler said:

So telford gets about 10,000 over the weekend not over the week.  I was looking at more of memberships as a per capita. Not the show.  But it would be interesting to overlay the uk over Madison and see how many attendees attend.  

Still an apples to oranges comparison.

Distances is one of the main drivers for our attendance. Texas end to end is a longer drive than someone going to Telford has.

Madison will be a hard two-day drive for me, longer for Virginia.

We started saving for the trip; but I am in a position where I can shift money, a position not everyone is in.

[WasatchModeler]

7 hours ago, BWScholten said:

Still an apples to oranges comparison.

Distances is one of the main drivers for our attendance. Texas end to end is a longer drive than someone going to Telford has.

Madison will be a hard two-day drive for me, longer for Virginia.

We started saving for the trip; but I am in a position where I can shift money, a position not everyone is in.

What about if we had a convention in California then?  If it was such a big issue then we would see double the attendance in Virginia than we had in Texas.  The other thing that you can look at is per capita members.  They have as many members as us with a tenth the population. 

[CaptainAhab]

2 hours ago, WasatchModeler said:

What about if we had a convention in California then?  If it was such a big issue then we would see double the attendance in Virginia than we had in Texas.  The other thing that you can look at is per capita members.  They have as many members as us with a tenth the population. 

That would be the “answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything “ and it’s not 42. Historically west coast conventions have always seen lower attendance than east coast, and Midwest has fallen in between. 80% of the population of the U.S. live east of the middle of the country, I would expect to see more attendance in Virginia, but not close to double, Texas was great, but Virginia is closer to far more people. 
 

The fact that conventions in higher density areas have more attendance makes sense, a LOT more people can get there conveniently and in less time, it’s a matter of opportunity. The chapters are a microcosm of the society as a whole, there are 5 million people in the Phoenix metro area, the Phoenix Chapter has a little over 100 members, other larger metro areas (Seattle) have about the same, I don’t know about east coast chapter numbers maybe someone else can chime in.
 

My first convention was Seattle in ‘92, to me it was fantastic, huge compared to any model event I had ever seen. Other people were complaining about how small it was, I was a little put out about that honestly, but after 20 of them now, some on the east coast, it was, comparatively. But attendance has been trending up ever since, west coast too.

Edited January 27 by CaptainAhab

[CaptainAhab]

17 hours ago, noelsmith said:

Michael's mention that anyone in the UK can drive to Telford within a day, true, but completely overlooks the fact that many of our visitors travel from all over Europe to visit the show.

True, I thought about the impact of attendees from Europe. It would be interesting to see the impact in numbers of attendees from outside the U.K. 
 

Just for fun…..

 

Edited January 27 by CaptainAhab

[noelsmith]

The USA outline overlay that Michael placed on the map of Europe makes a very  interesting comparison between the two. The landmass is very similar taking into account Norway, Sweden partially shown and Finland just off the map.

We do get considerable attendees from the further sides of Europe considering the UK is an Atlantic Island Nation. Poland, Romania, Greece, the Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland and Malta to name the further away ones. We even had IPMS Israel attend although not strictly in Europe. Before recent events we had a company named Neoresins from Russia visiting as a regular trader at the show. We get many visitors from all over Europe and the impact is a very positive one where we can meet like minded modellers from other countries and get their perspective on the hobby.

Cannot give you a percentage of attendees from mainland Europe, but the SMW Show Manager Richard Middleton on the UK EC might know.

Regardless of percentages the European IPMS branches and individual visitors from all over the world really give the show some diversity in outlook. And that helps bond us modellers and emphasises the word 'International' in IPMS.

 

 

Edited January 27 by noelsmith

[ghodges]

There is one other significant difference between the UK, Europe, and the US.... TRAINS!

The UK and Europe have extensive passenger train service EVERYWHERE.... from across a country, to across the continent, as well as even under the English Channel for those going to the UK from Europe and beyond. I'm betting the majority of Telford visitors drive and ride, and only a very few fly in. The train system makes it much easier to travel with the models as compared to flying.

We don't have that here in the US. Our passenger service is almost strictly local commuter, and that is limited to the northeast for the most part, and longer passenger service for vacationers which is MUCH less extensive and also generally more concentrated on the east coast. Also, passenger service is not much less expensive than flying here, making for even less incentive to ride than to fly. Add to that, our passenger service is notoriously s-l-o-w.... adding time to a long trip that many may not have. Express train service here in the US is pretty much a thing of the past.

That means here in the US if you have to travel more than 12-16hrs, you usually try to fly; and that raises the expenses of attending our Nats, and also greatly limits what you can take with you to the show. That's also why our shows that are in the eastern half of the country draw more people.... they're close enough for more people to drive to. When held in the middle of the US and on the west coast, they HAVE to be near the larger population centers so they can draw enough driving attendees to be profitable. 

While it may be interesting to compare Telford and the IPMSUSA Nats.... you really cannot. It IS an apples to oranges comparison. Their abilities to bring more models and other items and set up club displays/booths has always made Telford more display oriented with a smaller contest. The travel distances in the US have always dampened the ability to do the same, so our models all got lumped into the "contest" area without many displays. BOTH have served each convention very well. Trying to make one more like the other isn't the answer going forward. Instead, EACH show would need to poll attendees to see what changes THEY desire and would  support going forward.

 

Gil 
 

Edited January 27 by ghodges

[noelsmith]

Gil, you have made some very salient points about our two annual events. The demographic and travel infrastructure is very different in the States to over here and naturally influences what is feasible at each. Europe certainly does have a good rail network, but even so I would guess that most of our visitors displaying still travel by road and ferry simply to be able to carry more. 

Europe is developing more networks of high speed passenger trains. Maybe that is something that the USA needs for the future, not just up and down the East and West Coast areas but rapid two way rail systems as well right across the country in addition to the single line systems already in existence that could still be used just for slow moving freight. I am surprised that the US seems to be so far behind in this respect as high speed electric trains are non polluting too. Having used the Eurostar from London to Paris a few times I can vouch for how much more civilised it is to travel that way than flying.

[CaptainAhab]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:24 AM, ghodges said:

Trying to make one more like the other isn't the answer going forward. Instead, EACH show would need to poll attendees to see what changes THEY desire and would  support going forward.

Gil 
 

I agree, but I’m leery of surveys/polls, they all depend on to many variables. Who you ask, what is asked, how the questions are worded, how the results are presented and interpreted. There were almost 1000 registered attendees at San Marcos, just over 500 of them entered the contest, maybe the same whet to the banquet, if all 1000 were asked if they like/don’t like those aspects of the convention is that really going to give an accurate representation? 
 

The survey from SM showed for the contest the answers between neutral/like/really like were overwhelming. To ME that is a clear answer to the question, besides tweaks and improvements to the existing format leave it alone, but it seems others see something different. I think other rubrics give a better sense of popularity, like attendance/participation and number of entries.

 

Edited January 28 by CaptainAhab

[WasatchModeler]

On 1/27/2024 at 1:58 PM, noelsmith said:

Gil, you have made some very salient points about our two annual events. The demographic and travel infrastructure is very different in the States to over here and naturally influences what is feasible at each. Europe certainly does have a good rail network, but even so I would guess that most of our visitors displaying still travel by road and ferry simply to be able to carry more. 

Europe is developing more networks of high speed passenger trains. Maybe that is something that the USA needs for the future, not just up and down the East and West Coast areas but rapid two way rail systems as well right across the country in addition to the single line systems already in existence that could still be used just for slow moving freight. I am surprised that the US seems to be so far behind in this respect as high speed electric trains are non polluting too. Having used the Eurostar from London to Paris a few times I can vouch for how much more civilised it is to travel that way than flying.

 

Isn't flying across the country faster than a train? 

[Highlander]

On 1/26/2024 at 9:23 AM, BWScholten said:

...

Distances is one of the main drivers for our attendance. ...

Madison will be a hard two-day drive for me, longer for Virginia.

Three days ... each way ... for me.  In the middle of July.  Through the Mid-West.  With my wife wanting to stop to visit stuff all along both ways.  (After Omaha, we were roaming along dirt roads through cornfields in southern Nebraska in 100+ degrees looking for local graveyards which contained her relatives' graves) So I am still undecided.

Virginia will be worse.

[Highlander]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:53 PM, CaptainAhab said:

True, I thought about the impact of attendees from Europe. It would be interesting to see the impact in numbers of attendees from outside the U.K. 
 

Just for fun…..

 

Long drive from Damascus.

[steev]

37 minutes ago, WasatchModeler said:

Isn't flying across the country faster than a train? 

I was looking into railing to Wonderfest from here in Tidewater, one state away to avoid the 11 hr. drive and what I came up with was that you can't even get to Louisville by train. You can transfer to a bus and it's a 27 hour total ordeal. A plane is about 3.5 hr. and that includes a stop or two. LOL