More Resignations

[jcorley]

26 minutes ago, Scalemodeldoc said:

Careful moving for splits is clearly ok 

during judging, only the team lead may lift a model, and this should be a rare event clearly required for judging

If there is to be a "DO NOT TOUCH" code enforced (as some want), there's a certain IPMS/UK rule need to also be implemented; If you put your model in the wrong it will not be judged.

If there is such a rule implemented, the second point I've shown would not be allowed. Moving models during judging was also said to be illegal, only moved before the judging would be allowed.

[jcorley]

2 hours ago, Bert said:

Although I don't build armor and have not judged any, I can't see why it was necessary holding the model over his head and shining a light on it. What is there to see? I don't get it.

Bad paint, glue spots, seams, etc. Anything could happen to the bottom of a model during building that can happen on every other surface. This gets back to the whole 'judge the entire model' argument.

Art Gerber said the main reason some guys put tanks in dioramas with mud up to the fenders was to hide flaws!

[jcorley]

6 hours ago, noelsmith said:

Is it not made clear to all contestants that their models are placed on the table entirely at their own risk and that IPMS although taking reasonable care will not be held responsible for any loss or damage howsoever caused.

Maybe a disclaimer needs to printed on the bottom of every form we use for the entrants to the contest, in red, in bold, in italics, maybe even in braille!

[Bert]

46 minutes ago, jcorley said:

Bad paint, glue spots, seams, etc. Anything could happen to the bottom of a model during building that can happen on every other surface. This gets back to the whole 'judge the entire model' argument.

Art Gerber said the main reason some guys put tanks in dioramas with mud up to the fenders was to hide flaws!

Gotcha......but shining a light on it??? It's a pet peeve of mine. NO flashlights, now cell phone lights, should be allowed. I judged with a team and the lead judge used one, knocked of an antenna. By sheer luck. it was found across the table next to another model. If you can't judge without one, the room not well enough lit for you, don't judge. Just sayin'

[Bert]

1 hour ago, Scalemodeldoc said:

Pat, if the judges were using the methods and technique as you describe, there would be no controversy!  

Careful moving for splits is clearly ok 

As you say: “On judging night there are gloves available should a model have to be handled and usually it is the team leader that handles the model ONLY, if necessary, and rarely”

Thing is, without the picture, I heard over and over that IPMS judging is perfect and models are always handled in an optimal manner. My own eyes, and digital photography, have demonstrated we actually have opportunities for improvement on this front… I’ve seen judges lift models, tip them over, and cause figures to fall out. We can do better.

What blows my mine is that it is apparently so difficult to come to the rational conclusion that this isn’t a vast conspiracy by a shadowy array of guerilla forces, but just a goof that can easily be rectified with some written guidelines and education, basically what you already wrote!

 

-Splits will be done at head judges discretion, preferably in a closed room or with teams to minimize risk

-If a model must be touched, gloves must be worn

-during judging, gently sliding models on the table to allow better viewing is allowable, but should be done with best care (i love the idea of small slideable discs to place models on, allowing easy movement)

-during judging, only the team lead may lift a model, and this should be a rare event clearly required for judging 

There is a way to do this that recognizes the pragmatic reality of judging and also respects the safety desires of model makers.  

 

 

No matter what, some people (in this case a judge) do stupid things. You can't fix stupidity. Years ago, one my models suffered damage. It didn't stop me from ever entering another IPMS/USA Nat'l Convention contest.

[CaptainAhab]

1 hour ago, Scalemodeldoc said:

……but just a goof that can easily be rectified with some written guidelines and education, basically what you already wrote!

-Splits will be done at head judges discretion, preferably in a closed room or with teams to minimize risk

-If a model must be touched, gloves must be worn

-during judging, gently sliding models on the table to allow better viewing is allowable, but should be done with best care (i love the idea of small slideable discs to place models on, allowing easy movement)

-during judging, only the team lead may lift a model, and this should be a rare event clearly required for judging 

There is a way to do this that recognizes the pragmatic reality of judging and also respects the safety desires of model makers……

I agree this could have been more easily addressed and rectified, if the person/people with a concern would have shown up to the NCC’s after contest meeting on Saturday and raised those concerns, showing their examples. I was there, if someone was concerned about it and was at the meeting, they said nothing. It was handled poorly in my opinion, and the only thing to do now is try to move forward as best as possible. Although if another “issue” is addressed in the same manner on FB there will be less reason to believe it is legitimate at all.

As to the use of gloves to move models, there WERE gloves available at SM, so many judges used them they ran out, so a friendly note to the already overworked organizers. And if someone has suggestions/ideas on how to more strictly and closely police 50-60 volunteer judges I am all ears, I’m listening. That is, serious workable ones!
 

 

[Scalemodeldoc]

my IPMS number is 52392

i think I had one as a kid but had a good 15-20 year hiatus so this is the new one  

 

I do tire of the excuses “well that is a valid point, but unless it is brought up at the annual in person NCC meeting at 10:15am with this form in triplicate…”. Smacks of gate keeping. 
 

Step back and forget the current rules. 

in a utopian ideal contest, do we want judges barehanding models over their head with a flash light? 
I say no.
The perception of IPMS is important, and the way the society responds to criticism IS important. A graceful response to this situation would be easy and a compromise that makes 99% of people happy would also be easy. 

regarding splits and putting models in the wrong category (I must have found open-top German WW2 scout cars in 5 damned categories this year! 😂) my own personal opinion would be to move to GSB and thus eliminate the need for so MANY categories. Simple groups like 1:35 Allied WW2. these groups would be big, but also cool. Still award the winners out of the group, so it’s GSB + big winner award. Obviously this a separate discussion and a big change, but the oddball categories, constant splits, moving models and numeric differences (categories of 5 versus 40 in armor) are significant disadvantages of 123 that pester me a bit. 

[patd]

Allow me to throw another crab claw into the IPMS Gumbo here about picking up models. I was handling the admin of the A/C tracking sheets, which teams were out, what was already judged, etc. with the help of another judge at San Marcos. During a lull in the A/C judging while the teams were out on the second round of judging I was approached by the head A/C judge to see if I could help someone out who was vetting A/C models for the one of the special awards -the "Semper Fi Aircraft" award.

I went over to the gentleman who told me that he would like to get a look at the underside of the model (I assume to break a tie with another model). I put on my gloves and picked the model up CAREFULLY(!) so that the judge could see the underside. When he was finished looking the model over, I placed the model back on the table and returned to my admin duties. Later at the awards ceremony I found out that that model had won the "Semper Fi "award, so I guess picking it up allowed the judging to break a tie.

 I am also thankful that someone did not take a photo of this least it wind up on F/B with me being a pariah! ☹️

Most judges I know really do not like picking up models, me included, however in cases like doing splits it is unavoidable as well as having to move a model into the proper category. In San Marcos some of the tables were so full that models were just placed near the category until the judges could make room for them. I am still amazed at how much space 1/32 modern jets can take up!

Pat D

 

Edited January 18 by patd

[Stikpusher]

5 hours ago, Bert said:

Although I don't build armor and have not judged any, I can't see why it was necessary holding the model over his head and shining a light on it. What is there to see? I don't get it.

On older kits, there may be motorization holes or company logos. On newer kits, there is usually accurate detail down there- access plates, drain plugs, etc. Looking underneath will show if the builder bothered to paint and weather the bottom, or if on an older kit they filled and/or covered the motorization holes, removed the company logo, and then painted and weathered the undersides. Just like autos, ships, and aircraft have details on the bottom, so does armor.

Edited January 18 by Stikpusher

[Highlander]

10 hours ago, noelsmith said:

Is it not made clear to all contestants that their models are placed on the table entirely at their own risk and that IPMS although taking reasonable care will not be held responsible for any loss or damage howsoever caused..

Yes, abundantly clear.  But some entrants are more special than other entrants and their entries are the most special of all.  Thus, the abundantly clear caveats do not apply to them.

Well, if the special entrant actually reads any of the abundantly clear judging rules.  A running joke amongst judges is that they typical entrant has no idea what the categories are and what the rules are.  Thus, judges end up moving hundreds of entries from incorrect categories to the correct category.  My snide contribution is that an entrant arrives with an airplane, sees a table with airplanes, and places his airplane on it -- entry complete!

Edited January 18 by Highlander

[CaptainAhab]

17 minutes ago, Scalemodeldoc said:

……I do tire of the excuses “well that is a valid point, but unless it is brought up at the annual in person NCC meeting at 10:15am with this form in triplicate…”. Smacks of gate keeping……

For the record, I did not say “unless it is brought up at the annual in person meeting”, the person(s) with the concern and photo were at the convention, and could have easily attended the meeting and voiced their concern, there were other avenues as well that did not require access through any gates. They decided on a much more drama producing and shaming “outing” on social media. Smacks of an agenda….

[Highlander]

4 hours ago, jcorley said:

If there is to be a "DO NOT TOUCH" code enforced (as some want), there's a certain IPMS/UK rule need to also be implemented; If you put your model in the wrong it will not be judged.

Given what I see at each Nats in terms of entries in incorrect categories, coupled with the idea that the judges are the ones ultimately responsible for the final placement of the entries, there would be blood running in the aisles if one of the special entries by a special entrant was not judged.  It would dwarf the current controversies.

[Bert]

Special entrant, special entry? Who and what might that be?

 

 

 

 

 

[jcorley]

1 hour ago, Scalemodeldoc said:

my IPMS number is 52392

So weird, here is what I see

 

[jcorley]

1 hour ago, Highlander said:

My snide contribution is that an entrant arrives with an airplane, sees a table with airplanes, and places his airplane on it -- entry complete!

That's generous. I've found tanks on the airplane table.

[jcorley]

16 minutes ago, Bert said:

Special entrant, special entry? Who and what might that be?

Maybe the guy in Missori that sued IPMS because he didn't win?

[ghodges]

James: The ridiculously long number, I believe, is one that makes it immediately evident that THAT member joined AT the Nats and is assigned that number when they join there as an identifier. It is indeed a legitimate membership number, but one that the office uses to more easily track members who renew there as opposed to others who renew through the regular process or at a time other than the Nats.

ALL: While we can argue over the idea of what the handling policy was, is, and should be; THAT was not and IS not the immediate problem.... the PROBLEM is that in response to the controversy over the pic (whether THAT was contrived or just bad luck) the Eboard issued an ORDER/EDICT to the NCC DICTATING a new policy for the Nats contest, and they did so BEFORE the amendments passed giving them any "right" to do so. 

Whether or not you agree or disagree with their idea of the handling policy, the PROBLEM is two-fold: First- they displayed an attitude of unwillingness to consider working WITH the NCC (and take advantage of their decades of practical experience), and instead adopted an immediate policy of telling them that the NCC works FOR them; something that had never been true (and still at that time wasn't). Second: The Eboard decided to double down on their totalitarian stance of being the "boss" of the NCC and precipitated the resignation of almost all of the Head Judges. It also caused the incoming Chief Judge to step back, and as of this date (and according to the Dec. Eboard meeting minutes) HE has declined to work for them too. Whatever you think of the NCC (and I've been their detractor more than a supporter) the LOSS of that much contest experience hurts IPMSUSA, and more importantly shows extreme short-sightedness on the Eboard.

That leaves IPMSUSA without a group of experienced Nats contest leaders and administrators, and also calls into question how many of the judging corp will be willing to work in Madison UNLESS this Eboard takes immediate, positive, TRUSTWORTHY steps towards solving THAT problem (and I've already listed what steps I think they should take).

The handling problem (perceived or real) and the percentage of "elected" Eboard members as well as how IPMS should tackle those problems (and others) in order to move forward with sure footing for the future are of lesser concern and priority at this time. 

Even with all of the "goodwill" that can be engendered from volunteer IPMS members and judges who go to Madison, IF the Eboard is counting on that alone to save the day and put their changes into place; I'm concerned they're banking on something that will come up very short. 

I'm STILL waiting after 5 pages of discussion for the President or another Eboard member to come here (or in the 3rd members only section below) and show me how my concerns are wrong or overblown.

 

Gil 

Edited January 18 by ghodges

[Bert]

This, here is where this discussion IMHO should take place. Not on FB.

[RainingOil]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:00 PM, Bert said:

Although I cannot prove it. I believe the infamous photo was staged and posted for the sole reason to harm the society. Who took the photo? The judge's face was blocked by his arm and have no idea who he was. It's a perfectly framed photo. Sorry, I don't believe was randomly taken.

Well you’re right. You can’t prove that, and the guy in the photo came to the Facebook page and fought with everyone who didn’t like what he did. Then his wife came in and fought with people too. So unfortunately for the “it was stated angle” , it was real.

[RainingOil]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:28 PM, CaptainAhab said:

I understand not everything should or could be members only, and yes, I have a good picture of the amount of “agitators”, it’s not something unique to current times. 
 

And yes, as a paying member you can go behind closed doors and be an agitator, my question is, why do you just want to be an agitator? Member or not, if your someone who just enjoys agitating people I think IPMS should take a hard look at how that is helping the society and what the remedy could be.

Well, agitator seems to be, by your implication, a dismissive term in which you’re lumping everyone not for maintaining the status quo. This club has a giant problem with being a good ol boys club, and that is what people want to change. That has made a few people, namely some head judges, throw a temper tantrum and publicly quit. 
 

in fact, if you wanna talk about agitators, how about sending an email to a ton of folks who aren’t on the eboard moaning about how things are going and how they’re quitting the organization? That should have been an email to the eboard. But no, they wanted people to cry out and get them to stay. Guess tantrums don’t work.

[Scalemodeldoc]

9 hours ago, ghodges said:

James: The ridiculously long number, I believe, is one that makes it immediately evident that THAT member joined AT the Nats and is assigned that number when they join there as an identifier. It is indeed a legitimate membership number, but one that the office uses to more easily track members who renew there as opposed to others who renew through the regular process or at a time other than the Nats.

 

I did not join up at Nats. Joined through the usual online process. 🤷‍♂️

[Eric Aitala]

One is the IPMS/USA #, the other is the internal Wild Apricot number. Both can be said to be a valid IPMS/USA membership numbers.

Members with 'historic' IPMS numbers will get both

E

12 hours ago, jcorley said:

So weird, here is what I see

 

 

[Bert]

2 hours ago, RainingOil said:

Well you’re right. You can’t prove that, and the guy in the photo came to the Facebook page and fought with everyone who didn’t like what he did. Then his wife came in and fought with people too. So unfortunately for the “it was stated angle” , it was real.

Well, now we all know the story. Thanks for the info.

[Highlander]

13 hours ago, Bert said:

Special entrant, special entry? Who and what might that be?

That entrant and his entry surface several times each Nats.  In short, the entrant explains (demands) that his entry is so special that the rules cannot possibly apply to it, that it deserves prominence in display, that it has to be segregated so that the hoi polloi cannot get near it, and that, by its obvious magificance there should be a special seminar where the special entrant can wax endlessly about it.

I can only imagine what the special entrant's reaction would be if he entered his work for the ages in an incorrect category and it was not judged.

BTW, that was sarcasm.  But not by much.

Edited January 18 by Highlander

[Highlander]

12 hours ago, jcorley said:

That's generous. I've found tanks on the airplane table.

Found vehicles on the figures table.