Eric Aitala Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I do not believe this is technically possible unless you want to hand vet every single member of the group to make sure they are a current IPMS member. Which would include when their IPMS membership expired. E 21 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said: This right here should be the main focus of any new “ Director of Social Media” person! In my humble opinion our FB page should allow IPMS members to post and comment, anyone else can only visit and look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Eric Aitala said: I do not believe this is technically possible unless you want to hand vet every single member of the group to make sure they are a current IPMS member. Which would include when their IPMS membership expired. E I realize this is a huge ask, and certainly not a job that one person should be expected to do. And yeah, maybe it’s too late now that thousands of non-members have “joined” the page. But we could start now when people ask to join the page, and it may not be technically possible, but if ten people each had a list of 500 names of current IPMS members in alphabetical order, and cross referenced them with a similar list of people on the FB page maybe the current members can be identified, the rest can then be considered non-members. If there were more than ten people willing to do it each persons list would be shorter. Maybe its a crazy idea, so I’ll volunteer, give me a list of 500 IPMS members in alphabetical order starting with last names in the A’s, and a list of 500 people on the FB page in alphabetical order starting with last names in the A’s and I’ll see how long it takes me, now I’m not an expert when it comes to Execl, but that’s probably what I would try it with. I’m not trying to be flippant, I will give it a try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelsmith Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) How can anyone really police an IPMS Facebook group or restrict access to it? FB like Tik Tok and other sites is an open platform on social (unsocial) media depending on how you look at it. FB and others can either be briliant or become a cess pit at times. There may be volunteers to be moderators on it, but the reality is that after a while it could well become too much of a drain on their time amongst other more important commitments they have like work and family. Also they may well get embroiled in stuff on line they don't want or need! Not sure that a Director of Social Media either could of would make any difference to on line responses to any social media platform IPMS uses. Reading about all the 'in fighting,' going on at executive level I fear that IPMS at times falls foul of being full of its own self importance when it is just a model making group when all said and done! Edited January 13 by noelsmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcorley Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 4 hours ago, noelsmith said: How can anyone really police an IPMS Facebook group or restrict access to it? There are thousands of private pages on FB. These are hidden from public view. It might be something to add for the leadership of the Society. With access limited to current and former members of the EB, NCC, RCs, Staff and Chapter Contacts. It would be a good clearing house for general topics of importance to the Society and allow the EB to get a variety of views for input before decisions are made. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 57 minutes ago, jcorley said: There are thousands of private pages on FB. These are hidden from public view. ... I believe, but am not sure, that a FB moderator can remove members from a page. If I am correct, the page moderator, with a list of current IPMS members, could remove access to all not on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 6 hours ago, noelsmith said: How can anyone really police an IPMS Facebook group or restrict access to it? Most of the other modeling related pages I belong to I had to be approved by an administrator before I could join, I believe it depends on how the page is set up. And I agree it’s not a job for one person, it’s a much bigger job now by the way it was set up to begin with. As IPMS has moved into the digital/social media age we have given the cow away with the milk, so to speak, these are my thoughts about current access, You don’t have to be a member to access the Facebook page. You don’t have to be a member to access the web page, except for the small members only part of the forum. You don’t have to be a member to access a chapter, which it has always been that way. You don’t have to be a member to go to a huge portion of the national convention, you can go to the vendors room, look at the models in the contest, I believe go to some of the seminars (which used to be for registered members only) and of course see all your buddies, with a day pass that you don’t have to be a member to get and costs a lot less. What you do get, You get Journal. You get access to the member only section of the web pages forum. You can register for the national convention, which allows you to enter the contest, go to some restricted seminars/meeting, go to the banquet and get a pin. You get to be part of an organization, be involved in trying to run it if you want, or not. You get camaraderie, which you can get without being a member. So, when someone, especially the younger generations, asks “why pay to belong to IPMS” we are hard pressed to give a really good answer that meets their thinking. In our attempt to appeal to more people we have, maybe inadvertently, made our own bed. And I don’t think there is a good solution without some pain to remedy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Aitala Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 There are currently 14000 members on the FB Group. The interface to remove/block members is... primitive, i.e. go through the list one by one, check each members name to make sure they are who they say they are, then remove them. E 2 hours ago, Highlander said: I believe, but am not sure, that a FB moderator can remove members from a page. If I am correct, the page moderator, with a list of current IPMS members, could remove access to all not on that list. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highflight Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, Eric Aitala said: There are currently 14000 members on the FB Group. The interface to remove/block members is... primitive, i.e. go through the list one by one, check each members name to make sure they are who they say they are, then remove them. E Eric, could several volunteers take care of it from their own machines, given appropriate access and a current list? Divide and conquer, as it were. Each person tackle 3-4 last name letters by alphabetical listing? Four each would be seven people. I'd help. Could be done within a week, I think. Is the juice worth that squeeze for the admins to be able to maintain it from there? RB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcorley Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 If we purge people from the current group, the howls of outrage WILL be louder than it was this past year, so that's not a tenable solution. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 27 minutes ago, Eric Aitala said: There are currently 14000 members on the FB Group. ... Hmmm. 14,000 members on the FB group. 4,600 members in IPMS ... per the IPMS website. Which means, at the least, 9,400 FB page members are not IPMS members .. thus, at least 67% of the FB page members are not IPMS members. It gets more interesting. Not all of the 4.6K IPMS members are FB page members. I don't know how many. Which means that more than 9.4K FB page members are not IPMS members. If we do the normal statistical estimate, we assume that half of the IPMS members are not FB page members. Which, if close, would mean that 10,700 FB page members are not IPMS members ... 76%. Thus we can estimate, for planning purposes in the absence of hard data, that somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of the FB page members are not IPMS members. This little exercise gives me insight into the many complaints by IPMS members about non-IPMS members active on the FB page -- voicing their opinions on IPMS matters and, by some, spreading vitriol in an IPMS space. Which leads me to ask .... exactly who is the IPMS FB page for? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 5 minutes ago, jcorley said: If we purge people from the current group, the howls of outrage WILL be louder than it was this past year, so that's not a tenable solution. So, if we purge non-IPMS members from an IPMS FB page, we are concerned about their disapproval of an IPMS action? And, where will they howl if they can no longer howl on the FB page and the IPMS Forum? I ask again. Exactly who is the IPMS FB page for? I mean that seriously. Is it for the world at large (one extreme) or for IPMS members only (the other extreme) or something in between? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcorley Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 14 minutes ago, Highlander said: Which leads me to ask .... exactly who is the IPMS FB page for? I think it was opened to everybody in the hopes they would join the page, and then the Society. It hasn't worked out that way. I think only a small percentage of your 76% are the problem. IPMS got a reputation of being elitist after the 1978 Nationals and the "No model met National standards" fiasco. 45 years later, we still deal with the fallout of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I agree with James and David, so where does that leave us? The main issue, and question for me is, if we are going to listen too and shape our society by what we hear, who are we (IPMS leadership), or do we even know who we are listening too? If it’s not possible, or the outrage would be too great, is it at least possible to identify who is an IPMS member and who isn’t? At least for the E-Board/NCC/etc? Going by the last e-board minutes it seems it’s been decided to stick with only the page we have, and the suggestion is more moderators, OK, but what are they going to be allowed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelsmith Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 Regarding purging the IPMS Facebook Area of users who are non members one has to ask the question, would it be worth all the effort? 14k users of a constantly used and changing site? That is a lot to ask of non paid volunteers to purge and moderate. Once the initial flush of enthusiasm goes by the board, what then as interest and commitment will inevitably wane? It takes a certain type of person to continuously police, moderate and purge something like this on a constant basis. Like all these things they start out as what seems on the face of it a good idea until the boredom of routine sets in and those volunteers start to drop away and things revert back to as before. The Facebook thing whether considered good or bad may best just be left as it is. Attempting to purge and moderate it may be just flogging a dead horse. As I see it there are more important things actually going on within IPMS that need addressing rather than worrying about non members access to a Facebook page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highflight Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 53 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said: So, when someone, especially the younger generations, asks “why pay to belong to IPMS” we are hard pressed to give a really good answer that meets their thinking. In our attempt to appeal to more people we have, maybe inadvertently, made our own bed. And I don’t think there is a good solution without some pain to remedy it. Mike, that has been pondered a lot. "What is the IPMS/USA Value Statement?" See attchd. 2030 Vision Statement that was offered to the Board last August, but has yet to be discussed with any seriousness because of all the turmoil. It may come up soon, but I feel more able to bring it up here, now that I'm no longer a Board member (no offense to the Board intended by that). It can't satisfy everything to everyone, but with some tweaking here and there, it could offer an excellent roadmap for the future of IPMS. IMHO this boils down to a generational thing that, as you point out, we may never be able to overcome without serious pain. Right or wrong, good or bad, there are two completely different sets of morals and values, and a huge culture change at play in this. At the risk of sounding preachy or hokey, being nice, or at least respectful to each other is the important first step. This vision statement mentions not tolerating a bullying atmosphere a lot. That mention is aimed at the extremes on either side of anything. (As a picture for perceptions: social media "rabble rousers" vs NCC & the "old guard") Some groups are better at it than others because a moderate majority in the middle doesn't hesitate to call out any extreme, rather than letting them divide the group. With IPMS's demographics, it doesn't help that the older we get (I'm 68 now, so this hits home), the less effort we tend to put into considering differing points of view. Wearing that as a badge of honor draws lines in the sand that can't be crossed. Pushing a mantra that we all love the same great hobby regardless of our age or preferred subject matter, is key to bridging those generational gaps, and erasing those lines in the sand. The real question is whether we collectively have the ability to do that as individuals, to have a better whole. IPMS_USA Vision 2030 v3.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Aitala Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 There is no sorting on the full list as far as I can determine. Some of the sub-lists may be sorted chronologically E 2 hours ago, highflight said: Eric, could several volunteers take care of it from their own machines, given appropriate access and a current list? Divide and conquer, as it were. Each person tackle 3-4 last name letters by alphabetical listing? Four each would be seven people. I'd help. Could be done within a week, I think. Is the juice worth that squeeze for the admins to be able to maintain it from there? RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) FWIW, Here is a cut and paste FB conversation I had with Don Schmitz a few months ago after discovering there was an IPMS/USA FB page. It gave me some insight. You were indeed posting on the official IPMS/USA group; it is moderated by IPMS members and under the ultimate authority of the EBoard. All posts must be approved by moderators before they are visible. If you have something to discuss let's not do it in the group. Enter 11/28/23, 11:10 PM You sent Thank you for the reply. As I saw no mention of it on the official IPMS/USA website, I wasn't sure. I ran across this Facebook page by accident. When was it started? Enter You can now message and call each other and see info like Active Status and when you've read messages. 11/28/23, 11:30 PM Don I've been a moderator for 8 years, I think it existed a few years before that. I didn't know it wasn't listed on the Web page, enough people manage to find it to keep me busy approving new members. Enter You sent 8 YEARS! I'm seriously behind the curve. How where you selected as a moderator?......8 years.... dang. Enter Don I had suggested forming a committee to work on marketing ipms to Ron Bell, he agreed but suggested I help out with the Facebook group. The committee quickly fell apart, but I ended up with the moderator job. Enter Don Before I started, Eric Aitala, the ipms webmaster was running it Enter You sent So this Facebook page was stared before the 2016 Nats in Columbus? I wonder why I didn't I know about. It must have announced somewhere at sometime. Enter Don I'm not sure. There were a few years in the 20-teens when my parents were having health issues and I was out of touch with ipms, when I got involved again it was there. I think Eric had set it up as a place holder so we would own the ipms name. Enter You sent ERIC runs the forum on the IPMS/USA official website, does he not? Or am I thinking of someone else? Enter Don Yes, same Eric. Enter You sent IDK, I don't get it. He had the perfect opportunity to announce it there. Maybe he did and somehow, I missed it. Oh well. You must be one busy guy moderating this place. Enter Don In 2016 Facebook was mostly college kids, it was the pandemic when it really got busy. There are a couple other mods now, but it's still kind of hectic. The eboard is about to put out a request for more volunteers. Enter You sent This is going to be one very, very busy eboard. Enter Don Yeah, I don't think I'd want their jobs. Enter You sent Heh, but lucky you.....you're a moderator. with all the time in the world. Edited January 13 by Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Aitala Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 From Archive.org's Wayback Machine Note the date at the upper right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RONBO Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 58 minutes ago, highflight said: Mike, that has been pondered a lot. "What is the IPMS/USA Value Statement?" See attchd. 2030 Vision Statement that was offered to the Board last August, but has yet to be discussed with any seriousness because of all the turmoil. It may come up soon, but I feel more able to bring it up here, now that I'm no longer a Board member (no offense to the Board intended by that). It can't satisfy everything to everyone, but with some tweaking here and there, it could offer an excellent roadmap for the future of IPMS. IMHO this boils down to a generational thing that, as you point out, we may never be able to overcome without serious pain. Right or wrong, good or bad, there are two completely different sets of morals and values, and a huge culture change at play in this. At the risk of sounding preachy or hokey, being nice, or at least respectful to each other is the important first step. This vision statement mentions not tolerating a bullying atmosphere a lot. That mention is aimed at the extremes on either side of anything. (As a picture for perceptions: social media "rabble rousers" vs NCC & the "old guard") Some groups are better at it than others because a moderate majority in the middle doesn't hesitate to call out any extreme, rather than letting them divide the group. With IPMS's demographics, it doesn't help that the older we get (I'm 68 now, so this hits home), the less effort we tend to put into considering differing points of view. Wearing that as a badge of honor draws lines in the sand that can't be crossed. Pushing a mantra that we all love the same great hobby regardless of our age or preferred subject matter, is key to bridging those generational gaps, and erasing those lines in the sand. The real question is whether we collectively have the ability to do that as individuals, to have a better whole. IPMS_USA Vision 2030 v3.pdf 166.65 kB · 1 download This right here was what was needed 10 yrs ago. But I have to laugh just a bit because by 2030 I will be 67 yrs old just not what I remotely thought my retired life would be involved in. So very absolutely correct with the generational divide. Finding any way to interact with the younger generation will be a positive for the Society it will definitely possibly be a different look to the the current IPMS but in order for this Society to move forward this report is absolutely essential. Personally I look forward to seeing how this changes the look of IPMS the first time in decades that I feel comfortable with the vision going forward. Now to try to find technically astute and socially engaging especially to younger potential future members but that is years down the line. Changes in small steps will lessen the shock that the current membership will definitely experience. I might like to suggest that speaking to the juniors entered in contests local regional and the National to see what engages them to build and enter our contests. To get a better understanding of what makes this hobby tics for them. Most I think do it because a parent has encouraged them. Also 20-30 yrs old modelers may have some insights that may be useful to the Society. Now my efforts will be used to make the Madison show a successful show. I hope to see everyone who made comments on this thread there. I'll buy a round of your favorite Adult drink. Ron Thorne Jr Head Bottle Washer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, highflight said: Mike, that has been pondered a lot. "What is the IPMS/USA Value Statement?" See attchd. 2030 Vision Statement that was offered to the Board last August, but has yet to be discussed with any seriousness because of all the turmoil. Thanks Rob, I agree with some of it but not all. I consider myself somewhat involved in IPMS workings, but I have to be honest, I don’t remember seeing that document before. I recognize the names, but that brings up a question, was the group/committee put together by the e-board to do it? I don’t doubt the document framers dedication to IPMS, or their intent, but then I never doubted past or current NCC members dedication or intent to IPMS. I guess that’s where I get put off, yes if IPMS is going to continue as a society into the future it needs to adjust to the times, but there seems to be a group that thinks it’s a super urgent emergency and trashing everything and everybody who they perceive as in their way is OK, that’s were I think we need to make sure we are listening to members, not Facebook drama, and/or the 10% of members we will never make happy no matter what. I have a feeling we might be talking about different pain, I think we need to work at getting back to a member centric society, which will mean cutting off non-members in various ways. And yes it will probably shrink our numbers, but when we know we are listening to what members want, and adjusting for them, or not if that’s what the majority wants, we can then listen to non-members opinions and see if we can alter our society to make it more enticing to join. It will take many years, and a vision that everyone can agree with, especially the e-board after this one, the one after that and the one after that one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, noelsmith said: As I see it there are more important things actually going on within IPMS that need addressing rather than worrying about non members access to a Facebook page. I agree in part, if the e-board can ignore the drama and criticism on FB and focus on the society then we can move forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainAhab Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 5 hours ago, Highlander said: This little exercise gives me insight into the many complaints by IPMS members about non-IPMS members active on the FB page -- voicing their opinions on IPMS matters and, by some, spreading vitriol in an IPMS space. Which leads me to ask .... exactly who is the IPMS FB page for? While I couldn’t agree more, it may be far too late to change. As Eric has shown, it’s been around for years, I think Covid with people stuck at home and looking for something to do brought people back to the hobby, and then they went looking for a modeling community, and with no chapters to go to found FB and our page. I remember when the members forum was far more active, something I think we should promote and advertise more. One thought is make an announcement on FB and the members forum, but don’t allow comments on FB and encourage members to go to the forum to if they want to comment. If we can’t control the FB page we can at least discourage and limit the non-members ability to muddy the waters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, CaptainAhab said: ... but there seems to be a group that thinks it’s a super urgent emergency and trashing everything and everybody who they perceive as in their way is OK ...listening to members, not Facebook drama... To the first point, I agree. Ir does seem that way. To the second, I think listening to members through IPMS channels ... not podcasts and other social media .. is important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 As I look through the FB page, I note that the greatest portion seems to be various builds, final model products, and model research. I wonder how much of that is posted by IPMS members and how much is posted by non-members who want to show off their efforts. Over time, I've observed that, if you build a place that the general public can take advantage of, they will come. It is great, I think, that lots of folks are in the hobby. I just don't know if it is one of the missions on IPMS to provide non-members a place for show and tell. After all, such folks could join and compete and attend contests and participate fully. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghodges Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Hmmmm... much to ponder and a lot of good thoughts above.... and one not so good thought.... FACE BOOK AND SOCIAL MEDIA: establish 1 or 2 new PRIVATE pages; 1 for the Eboard/NCC/RCs and anyone else interested in the "nuts and bolts" of running IPMSUSA and have admins approve every member in order to join. Create a second private page for model posting where admins also must approve joiners but for MODEL posts/CONTEST updates only. ADVERTISE ONLY THE 2nd ONE! Keep them separate as far as content goes. Let the current FB page die if it cannot be deleted through FB administrators (tough to do in my experience without codes). That's the only way I can see to establish some "control" over what's posted in the future, and it doesn't involve deleting anyone already on the old page. Also, MOST IPMS members don't/won't go there anyway, so it's not like the admins will have to check all 4000 names to be sure they're members, AND they can delete/suspend people who prove to be uncivil. I read the 2030 Vision for IPMS proposal with very mixed feelings. Overall, I have to say it is NOT a vision I can support. While it does have some good basic ideas at heart I can support like softening IPMSUSA's approach to competition and focusing more on the ART of model building; I CANNOT get behind the idea of any kind of Ethics Committees nor even its proposal to give every member "periodic training on the Society’s brand, ethics, and vision". Most of the proposal seems to be the solidification of control and power through an expanded Eboard with Socialistic overtones. It would create MORE work and more duties at an executive level and require more volunteers in a hobby society already strapped for qualified leadership. I'm not even sure I can support its stated idea to expand IPMS to include ALL modeling types. In fact, I have to disagree with it. We are not train modelers, nor RC control modelers, nor paper modelers, nor wooden ship builders. We are PLASTIC modelers! I can understand redefining and expanding the definition of "plastic" and the various mediums used in building models, but it's all in order to build PLASTIC models, and not other types. I'm sure that's one of the reasons our membership is less than its potential among ALL model hobbyists... BUT in my mind our target members are PLASTIC model builders who thus far have shunned us, and not the entire world of model building enthusiasts. In trying to appeal to ALL, we'll bite off more than we need to and create more work and problems in the long run. There are things that can be looked at and perhaps done to improve the "value for your buck" in joining IPMSUSA without reinventing the wheel, expanding the Eboard, or trying to control our membership anymore than in the past. IPMSUSA can rehab their image and interests without radical change, although CHANGE is needed to give people a reason to look at us in a new light. Keep it simple, set concrete goals that are easy to comprehend, try to use the decades of experience already within our membership, and do it all in a series of small, manageable steps instead of trying to jump ahead all at one time and become something we were never intended to be. Gil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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