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I think the discussions on this thread are part of the PR problem. People discussing and arguing about a hobby most just want to have fun turns people away

 

Dave

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22 minutes ago, dmorrissette said:

I think the discussions on this thread are part of the PR problem. People discussing and arguing about a hobby most just want to have fun turns people away

I don't see all that many reading this, particularly non members. And those who "just want to have fun" get very unhappy went the contest gets messed with badly.

Dak

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2 hours ago, JClark said:

We are picky because these are points of craftmanship... Period. Not because they are not on the real things.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?As I said, it depends on your point of view. Many, like myself, see craftsmanship and accuracy as going somewhat hand in hand. As I said, it is a complicated subject and cannot be clearly wrapped up in a few paragraphs. I remember an aircraft builder who had carefully puttied over some seams on a tank model, which should be there. If someone filled up the intake of his F-16, people would have a fit, if he won with it, regardless of how well done it was. Craftsmanship has is own limitation as a tool for judges and you can err by leaning too much either way.

I think the system we have now works fine, such as it is. Most of the judges I have worked with have been knowledgeable and prepared for the job. I still feel personal appeal is an important factor. I have had excellent success building my models in a way that have good visual draw to them. One submarine I did was weathered as I would a tank and has never failed to get an award. In fact, all the ships I have done that way have won awards, so I will stick with what works, even if you believe it has no effect. Certainly, I like to think I've put good work and research into a project, but making it so people want to look at it never hurts. Of course, like the stock market and craps table, past performance is no guaranty of future performance.

As for the contest design, we already run out of awards on occasion. If the number of entries continue to grow...as we hope it will...then we will need to expand the categories to allow more people a chance to win and increase the number of awards. 600 awards is still 600 awards no matter how we hand them out. I would say there would be less categories. OOB, for one would no longer be needed. And each contest would get some custom fitting as is done now. That's why we have splits, right? No, I don't see the Skill Level idea going over with the membership because many are obsessed with ranking their model, even thought they would stand more chance of winning an award than they do now.

I'll be in Chattanooga on Wednesday, around noon. I'll be wearing the cape and goggles.

Dak

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DAK

               You'll be hard to miss, LOL...

                We don't run out of awards because there is a budget per a set number of categories. We had 196 categories last year with 5 extras allots per the NCC. I requested we only do 4 since  5 would put us over (By1) our package requirement of 50 per block when ordering. If anything we had extras left over from categories not used. Each class head judge knows how many categories they have and the freedom the make changes on the spot but they have a budget to stay within. Right now that's a very positive thing for both the NCC and the local host.

               You may see both going hand in hand, you may have personnel "feelings" about how judging should be done. You may "Feel" personal appeal is relevant, But show me where in the rule book where it states you can use "feeling and personal views" . You can't because it's not there and it's  not quantifiable.  Rules are there for you to use, not do as you wish.

               How how you choose to model is up to you. But once you enter the "Contest" and right now that is what it is. You have rules and criteria that will be used to judge your model . As a judge you have to fairly apply those to have a fair outcome. If not then what happens when the entrant asks why they didn't place and your reply as a judge is " you didn't weather your model". Entrant> Well the rule book didn't say I had to weather my model …  We have negative based outcome judging for a reason, its clearly quantifiable , you can point to any of the issues that are called for in the rule book as to why you came to your decision. Using personal likes,,,, not so much.

               But in the end I get your position. You want to classify things in construction as accuracy because that's the way you (feel) about it even thought we are told not to use accuracy in our decisions because we can't know everything about every model.. You want to pick what you want in judging because that's the way you (feel) about it. I can see why your point of view makes sense to you. But when you judge the correct way you have to put away your bias, apply the rule, put on the blindfold and hold the scales.

 

Dave

           I would rather have and be a part of a society with members who care what is going on and have a passion not only for the hobby but the convention/contest and society. Even if we disagree. Being engaged is part of the fun. Right DAK ?

 

All

           Ok it's official, the dead horse arose and was promptly hammered back into the ground. That's all from me Folks, See you guys and gals in Chattanooga ;-)

 

Jim

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I can say I have NEVER been to a contest were personal appeal has not ultimately come into play. If all the category entries are poor quality....and you know some are nothing but weak entries...or there is a mass of superb work, at some point, the judges will have to base a decision on what they like. A Ferrari over a Mustang, a Sherman over a Tiger tank, a Zero over a Fw-190, etc. There are many cases where there is no other way to decide. Unless you contrive to find some defect everyone can agree on.

Contest awards. Last year, you had 2367 entries. This year, they are hoping to do better than that. The target of 3000 has been passed around. With a fixed number of categories, that means a smaller percentage of entrants can expect an award. Even if they only go to 2450, the winning percentage still shrivels.

Dak

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Dak, By what confabulations do you get these notions?  Where is your data? I have judged 35+ years and have never used preference for a particular subject to make a judging decision. Nor have I ever seen a judge do it- at any level. Such an idea insults conscientious judges. There is always another way to decide and good judges can always find it! 

I would be happy to give you a primer on good judging at the Nationals, if you are open to improving your judging skills. From your last posting, it sounds like you would benefit from it. 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

 

 

 

 

 

 

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All I am saying is that in the final stages of judging, depending on the entries, it sometimes comes down to personal choice. For example, at a recent National, one category had three poor models. I mean none were well done and none were better than the other two. We explained it to the head judge and he had no problem with our choice. In the end, my team just went with the one we liked the best because the work was so poor, but all three got awards. In 2017, my team was judging some very good models and in the end, the choice between the two very best was based on the fact we all liked one more than another. If I had had my way, we would have had a tie for first place, but that was not an option. Again, the head judge had no problem with our decision.

In culling in another category, none of us liked a particular model. A quick look was all it took to see it was not in the same class as the other entries. There was no in depth study; it was just quickly pushed aside.

Nick, I have confidence my judging skills are as good as yours. I keep a copy to the hand book on my phone.

Dak

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DAK

                The class head judge may have agreed with your choice. But did he know HOW you came about it? That's the key. You find whatever nit picky detail you can to make a decision. I have said my peace on how unfair this is to entrants to simply pick your favorite.... And all I am saying is in the final stages, depending on the entries, it always comes down to fining the one with the least weighted errors. That's defendable. Picking your favorite is NEVER defendable.

                I'm signing off from this thread. Really no more can be discussed...

 

Later

Jim

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"Preference" is never an option.

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10 hours ago, JClark said:

   The class head judge may have agreed with your choice. But did he know HOW you came about it? That's the key. You find whatever nit picky detail you can to make a decision. I have said my peace on how unfair this is to entrants to simply pick your favorite.... And all I am saying is in the final stages, depending on the entries, it always comes down to fining the one with the least weighted errors. That's defendable. Picking your favorite is NEVER defendable.

Jim,

You and Nick are being both obtuse and sanctimonious about this point. Additionally, you have latched on to a small remark and blown it way out of proportion and removed it from context. When you are trying to decide between 1st and 2nd, you must make a call about which flaw is more damning. Is the tiny mold seam more import than the tiny bit of silvered decal. That is a personal choice, even if it is agreed upon by all involved. Personal choice or opinion always comes in at some point. Maybe both are considered equal and in the end, you go with which model you like best. -The one you and the other team members like best-

Keep in mind, all of my "personal choices" were backed up by at least two other judges and certified by the class head judge. To some degree, both you and Nick (if you were judging) signed off on it by accepting which one we submitted as a candidate for Best of Class. A lot of people looked at the winners chosen and had no problem. At no time was this ever a case of one person working alone.

The judge's handbook is a group of guidelines..... and something that changes, from time to time. If you look at the first line of the first paragraph, you will see it says model building is an art. And what is good art is always a case of personal taste. In the end, we must rely on the judge's experience as both a model builder and judge.

If you move down to the aircraft section, you will see it says "contours should be corrected". Who decides what it correct? How would you decide it is correct, unless you are judging accuracy? It may not look right to you, but it did to the builder. If there is one line I here constantly when judging, it is "that doesn't look right". That leads to (or at least should) discussion between the team members about what we are seeing.

At no point in the handbook does it say one flaw or problem is more important than another. That is left to the personal choice of the judges.

Dak, IPMS Judge and renaissance modeler 

 

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3 minutes ago, Nick Filippone said:

Huh? Nick

Exactly! Dak

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This thread has drifted well away from the PR problem and has become one about the finer points of judging.

I think that everyone posting on this thread has made their personal views well known by now, and it is going nowhere except for just more lengthy replies being made.

Regardless of all this IPMS is where it is, and I can foresee the same discussions and arguments taking place in another 10 years from now. So basically what I am saying is that I can't foresee any great changes being made, and the society will carry on in just the same way as it always has.

Maybe we take ourselves too seriously at times and forget it is just a hobby that we should all enjoy regardless of skill level!

Edited by noelsmith
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No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism.

Dak

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That is quite a profound statement Dak!

Whilst being philosophical, a late very good friend of mine, Tony Woollett, who was IPMS U K National Champion quite a number of times had this to say.

No matter how your model is judged, it will be no better or worse when you take it off the table to when you placed it on the table!

I don't lose any sleep over judging decisions on my models as it is on!y someone else's opinion at the end of the day. You win a few. You lose a few!

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Dak, Since you did not put your last post in quotation marks, and did  not cite the author, you have placed your self in the unenviable position of appearing to be plagiarizing Sir Winston Churchill. At least, that is what I would have been accused of by any professor of mine during my education. I will concede it is more likely to represent academic sloppiness on your part, and less likely to be intellectual dishonesty, but neither of those accusations is particularly desirable. I trust you judge with rather more care. Nick “ obtuse and sanctimonious “ (1)Filippone. 

(1) Kimberly,  D; “ The PR Problem, “ IPMS Forum, 30July, 2019

See? That is how an educated person credits the intellectual property of someone else! Nick 

 

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Nick

And an educated person would get the name right of the person being quoted.

This whole thread has reached the point of being ridiculous.  I suggest everyone take a break at least until after Chattanooga so they can have more kindling for the fire.

Rick

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4 hours ago, noelsmith said:

No matter how your model is judged, it will be no better or worse when you take it off the table to when you placed it on the table!

I don't lose any sleep over judging decisions on my models as it is on!y someone else's opinion at the end of the day. You win a few. You lose a few!

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde.....I will continue to say the models were badly judged until I win.😀 Noel, I like the Woollett quote and quit worrying about it a long time ago. I just leave a treat for the judge's seeing eye dog and let nature take its course.

The really important element is to keep coming back. Many never learn that part.

Nick, I steal from the witty and give to the bored. Like I told Jim, I'll be the one wearing the cape and goggles.

Dak

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If it isn’t Churchill, who is it? When you google the quote, that is who comes up more than once! Educate me, please. Thanks. Nick

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I found my error. So much for automatic fill-ins on my I pad. But the point is still made! But, I in the process of trying to figure out my mistake, I found an interesting fact about that quote. In fact, it was from a Letter to the Editor of The Daily Telegraph on 2 December, 1929 criticizing Prohibition in the U.S.!

This thread isn’t ridiculous at all. We learned about Churchill’s attitude toward Prohibition. We also learned that I still can’t competently operate electronics communication devices.

Oh! Damn! My ink well has gone dry! 

Nick

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Gary Oldman's portrayal of Chuchill in the film ' Darkest Hour' gives an insight into this well known political figure.

Whoops! I am drifting from the PR  problem again! Better stop or my quill will wear out!

Edited by noelsmith

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13 hours ago, noelsmith said:

Gary Oldman's portrayal of Chuchill in the film ' Darkest Hour' gives an insight into this well known political figure.

I enjoyed the movie, but felt it took a few liberties with history. I did like Oldman's performance.

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The movie industry unfortunately generally takes too many liberties with history as more interested in box office takings than facts.

Sad thing is that many movie goers have little history knowledge and simply take the films at face value.

The Enigma movie is a prime example of liberties being taken and really distorting the facts.

They do the same when they make a movie from a novel. Jurassic Park was a typical example. I read the book 2 years before JP 1 was made and boy did Spielberg distort it!  If indeed the movie had stuck to the book it would have been rated 18. For example, in the book it described in graphic detail how Nedry the computer nerd was having his intestines ripped out by a dinosaur whilst he was still alive. Maybe if Tarantino directed it instead of Spielberg it may have kept better to the original novel. But of course, Hollywood toned it down to satisfy the desire for multiple marketing spin off toys, tee shirts etc.

Whoops again. Still straying from the PR thing!!!!

 

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