Moving/touching models.

[Bradley25mm]

Fellow Modelers,

         I was unable to attend this years Nationals in San Marcos TX. My friend told me a couple of days ago about a judge picking u a model up over his head to see the chassis. I did see where the IPSM Board will be making some major changes in regards to this, and was very pleased. This has been long overdue. It should never have come to this. 
         It’s shenanigans like this that turn modelers off to attending contest. Just my two cents. 
 

Regards

Christopher

[ghodges]

Chris: Have you ever judged, and more importantly, have you ever judged at the Nats? I suspect not, or you'd understand:

1) There were no shenanigans, and the judge actually may have been (probably was) judging under the existing parameters. His only true faux-pas was not having a glove on, which is also not a requirement. I have no doubt, as a 20+yr Nats judge, that he didn't lift the model out of idle curiosity or just for fun.

2) Models are 3D subjects and are judged in all 3 dimensions under the current 1-2-3 judging guidelines. Thus, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, which it almost always does at the Nats, being able to see the bottom MAY be needed to make the fairest decision.

3) Have you considered that the judge in question, by holding the model up and shining a light on the bottom did so to avoid turning the model upside down (a MUCH more hazardous thing); and thus was actually handling the model in the safest way possible? It's also possible, though not seen in the picture that he alone was handling the models for his team, and thus this one "lift" enabled his entire team to make a more informed decision.

4) Note that no one has said or even implied that the model was harmed in any way. I'm betting most of the people bemoaning this incident on the internet are non-judge/non-IPMS members  complaining out of ignorance and the wrong expectations of how judging is actually done, especially at the Nats.

Gil 

Edited August 15, 2023 by ghodges

[Bradley25mm]

             Thanks Gil for the reply. I respect your opinion. However, I speak from experience. 2019, Chattanooga TN Nationals. Left the room for judging. Returned to the table to see if my Trumpeter SU-27 won anything. Noticed that the front landing gear was completely ripped off. Who ever tried to lift it off the base, just put it back down. Left no note as to what happened. All of my models ,as you know, are put on bases. Glued down to keep them safe for transport, and for judging. All of my bases have felt pads on the bottom so they can easily be rotated on any surface. If a judge needs to look underneath, they can use a dental mirror, or even their iPhone 

(reverse their camera direction so that they can see on the screen what is exactly underneath the model )

             I even told, who I believed, was the head aircraft judge that this was the case. When I initially brought it in, he asked me to take it off the base and just put the plane on the table, and put the base underneath. Thought that was kind of weird as that was part of the whole display. 
               And yes I have judged before. Not at the nationals, because that was my first and only time in attendance. I did get in contact with the head judge about this. He not only provided me a room, and supplies to fix it, but offered to give me a newly released Tamiya P-38 for my troubles. I declined the kit and fixed my model. 
                As for your “ shenanigans” reply, I probably could have used a better term, maybe like “Current judging rules”. Have a good evening Gil, and thanks for the reply friend. 
 
Regards

Christopher

(currently a non-IPMS member)

[jcorley]

9 hours ago, Bradley25mm said:

If a judge needs to look underneath, they can use a dental mirror, or even their iPhone 

(reverse their camera direction so that they can see on the screen what is exactly underneath the model )

Using phone cameras is listed as one of the "don'ts" during the pre-judging meeting - we specifically cannot do that! Dental mirrors can also break/damage models when in the wrong hands.

[Bradley25mm]

I’m just glad that this has changed. 
 

Regards

Christopher

[CaptainAhab]

I wouldn’t be glad yet, this will take a while to shake out. A lot of complaints about the NCC not being transparent bla, bla, bla, but no one, including the e-board bothers to ask the core group of judges for their opinions. There are less then 250 people who have judged for more then 3 years on the judging roster, and far less then that show up regularly at the nationals. While the head judges/assistants are very busy herding cats/refereeing disagreements/paperwork/etc. and deserve our THANKS! they don’t DO the judging. Depending on how this ends up let’s hope that not too many will decide it’s not worth the drama.

Edited August 15, 2023 by CaptainAhab
Accuracy

[ctruss53]

16 hours ago, ghodges said:

Chris: Have you ever judged, and more importantly, have you ever judged at the Nats? I suspect not, or you'd understand:

1) There were no shenanigans, and the judge actually may have been (probably was) judging under the existing parameters. His only true faux-pas was not having a glove on, which is also not a requirement. I have no doubt, as a 20+yr Nats judge, that he didn't lift the model out of idle curiosity or just for fun.

2) Models are 3D subjects and are judged in all 3 dimensions under the current 1-2-3 judging guidelines. Thus, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, which it almost always does at the Nats, being able to see the bottom MAY be needed to make the fairest decision.

3) Have you considered that the judge in question, by holding the model up and shining a light on the bottom did so to avoid turning the model upside down (a MUCH more hazardous thing); and thus was actually handling the model in the safest way possible? It's also possible, though not seen in the picture that he alone was handling the models for his team, and thus this one "lift" enabled his entire team to make a more informed decision.

4) Note that no one has said or even implied that the model was harmed in any way. I'm betting most of the people bemoaning this incident on the internet are non-judge/non-IPMS members  complaining out of ignorance and the wrong expectations of how judging is actually done, especially at the Nats.

Gil 

And this is why in my thread about moving models around, I was not upset that the models were moved. I just wanted to make sure they were judged as I displayed them. And then moved.

I don't mind if they are moved after they are judged. Just as long as care was taken when they were moved. And since all judges are or were model builders, I trust that care was taken.

Edited August 15, 2023 by ctruss53

[ghodges]

James (and all): the NO camera light rule is a bad one as it stands now.

I understand that we do NOT want the judges all shining "spotlights" on all of the models in order to spot things that might not be seen under normal room lighting conditions. And I don't think they're a "need" to see into cockpits to compare detailing either.

However, while dental mirrors are pretty easy to use under airplanes (and carefully, as you cited); it's not practical for other genres like tanks and cars. More light is often needed to see under a model. And as I've mentioned elsewhere, if that judge had not used his light, he would have had to turn that tank upside down to get the room light on the bottom features; a MUCH more risky maneuver than holding it up as he did.

Do we need to take a look at our current policy to see how best to update it? Yes! Do we need to reinforce the idea in the judging corp  the need to handle the models ABSOLUTELY as little as possible? Yes! Do we need to drive home the point that IF a model is damaged it CANNOT be ignored or glossed over (and perhaps even track the responsible judge for future reference)? Absolutely! 

But we also need to do a better job of educating the contest public of what their true expectations should be about model handling at IPMS contests.

 

Gil 

Edited August 16, 2023 by ghodges

[BWScholten]

The no camera rule is too keep judges from blowing up their view of the models in order to spot minuscule issues.  Issue small pen lights if lighting is poor.

[CaptainAhab]

The flashlight on a phone isn’t t that great for looking at models, it’s a very wide beam and washes details out more than anything. 

[Moose135]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:46 PM, ghodges said:

I understand that we do NOT want the judges all shining "spotlights" on all of the models in order to spot things that might not be seen under normal room lighting conditions. And I don't think they're a "need" to see into cockpits to compare detailing either.

Years ago, at a show in the Northeast which shall remain nameless, someone entered an M-113 APC. The rear troop ramp was down, and when you looked inside, there was a soldier figure flipping the bird, holding a sign saying, 'And your little flashlight too!'