Either or.....

[Dakimbrell]

This is a Tamiya motorcycle kit, of course. However, it was not the real intention. The model was done to support the girl than the motorcycle. The question is where should be in the show contest. Perhaps in Mounted Figures?

 

Dak

[ghodges]

Nice work, but I'll let one of the Head Judges tackle that question.

 

Gil 

[Nick Filippone]

Assuming you are not putting us on, I believe, traditionally ( and based, also, on my personal observations of entries in figure categories for many years), mounted figures refer to humans mounted on an animal of some kind. This is usually a horse although I suppose a camel or an elephant strictly speaking would likewise qualify. I guess even rodeo figures on a bull might be considered a mounted figure. But in each case the figure is mounted on a living creature. If a person on a motorcycle is a “ mounted figure,” then how about a figure sitting in a car, an aircraft cockpit or a speedboat? How about a kid on a bike or a skateboard? What about an old person sitting in a rocking chair? A logical extrapolation or “ Reduction ad absurdam?” Nick

[Ron Bell]

In section "D, Dioramas and Vignettes" under "IV Contest and Class Specific Designations" of the IPMS National Contest Rules there is this:

"Entries with a single vehicle and/or no more than five figures will be placed into the Vignette (Small Composition) categories. Entries with two or more vehicles and/or more than five figures will be placed into the Diorama (Large Composition) categories."

And this:

"Vignettes may also tell a story or may simply depict a ‘moment in time/location".

Being that this entry is a single vehicle, has no more that five figures and is depicting a moment in time, it would seem it belongs in a Vignettes category. However, there is no Vignettes category in the Automotive categories only a Diorama one (596) which requires an entry to have more than five figures and to tell a story, so unless the judges create one as a "Split" it would go in 545 Motorcycles (civilian/racing only) All entries and the figure would not be judged. (Let's not get into that chazerai right now.)

However, there are no class specific definitions for Figures in the National Contest Rules, so what is a "mount" is not defined so this entry might qualify as a mounted figure as well. 

This one would be up to the head Figure/Automotive Judges to figure out. 

 

 

[Dakimbrell]

Thanks guys,

One friend said put it in 408, Early Steam and Sail.

Well, I aways enjoy the thinking on the issue. This like many we are seeing more like are things begin to work in grey areas. I see the whole thing more about the figure than the bike. Considering she was broken when I got her cheap.

It doesn't generally go with the motorcycle guys because, so few ever do a figure, but I don't to win based on what I say in the past. Then again, with a figure might add to it in a big crowd. There really isn't a true story with both bike and rider. I have noticed the "Mounted" fraise doesn't seem to actually define what a figure is riding.

I don't really think of it as a diorama, and I think putting her there would just get lost in a crowd. Maybe just putting it in Mounted and let the judges figure it out at the show.

Dak

[ghodges]

I think there is one misnomer here going unsaid; and that is that there's supposed to be a category for "everything" at the Nats. That's not so.... 

The Nats categories were established based on the most popular basic modeling genres and have since evolved based on two things: new genres (such as Anime and/or Gundams) and modeler participation in those genres. There never has been an intention to create categories to make sure that there's someplace to put everything that shows up. There's stuff that people build that's out of the ordinary, and then there's lot's of "gray" areas, which is where you're treading. That is why there's a Miscellaneous category.

I like Ron's reasoning, and IF there was an automotive vignette category, I could see it being put there. However, short of that split being created (and it won't happen for 1 entry), I see the judges offering YOU the following option: Put it in motorcycles and have the figure ignored; or put it in Misc.. I do not see it being allowed into the "mounted figure" category. Not only do I think it's not what that category was created to serve in competition for, but I also believe it would raise a ruckus with those who build traditional mounted figures; and IPMSUSA does NOT need to ++++ off another genre group who already looks on IPMSUSA as a modeling group who puts them as second class Society citizens to planes, armor, cars, and ship builders. 

Your best course of action would be to consult the Chief Judge or one of the Head Judges BEFORE putting it on the table at the show. That way, you have no worries about putting it in the wrong place AND you avoid possible breakage from them having to move it at least once, if not more times.

 

Gil 

[Dakimbrell]

Do keep in mine this is not the first time I’ve had to deal with this sort of thing.

I don’t expect it to win because most of the figure judges always feel guilty when they come around a sexy figure. But, you can never know for sure unless you enter. 

I will leave it until I get there and let the people make up a mind. “Mounted” is just a word. It doesn’t say horses or other things. They may decide what ever the “mount” might be.

Dak

[SkyKing]

This discussion begs the question “Why is there no Vignettes category for Automotive entries?”

[Nick Filippone]

“Mounted” (definition) : “ riding a horse or involving people riding a horse.” 
Cambridge English Dictionary.   
 

Nick

[Nick Filippone]

“Mounted” - “seated or riding on a horse or other animal.” 
Dictionary.com

Nick

[Ron Bell]

Nick, not to split hairs, but mounted has many meanings. You "mount" a trophy stag's head to hang on your wall. (At least some do, not me.) You "mount" a poster on linen to preserve it. You can "mount" an effort to do something. Given possible problems, I think it would behoove the Figure Head Judge to put a definition of "mounted" in the rules to avoid potential confusion. 

And as to why no Vignettes category for automotive subjects, our basic categories were set up long ago and have been refined due to usage. If a category has no entries for some years, it may be dropped. Or the opposite may occur, if there are increasing numbers of entries, 1/48 scale armor is a good example, a new category may be created. I don't know the stats of this particular category, but it is possible that there have not been enough entries that would qualify as a Vignette in automotive subjects to justify such a category. 

[Nick Filippone]

Ron, I applaud your effort to be diplomatic. But, of course, none of the examples of the term “ mounted” that you provide are remotely related to figure modeling. Context often mandates how a word is meant to be defined and understood in a particular situation.This is especially true of the English Language, in which many identically spelled words have radically different meanings. I do not think it fair to once again importune the Contest Committee by asking them to clarify their usage of a word that everyone with a firm grasp of the English Language (except, apparently, IPMS USA members) clearly understands a priori. Nick

 

[Dakimbrell]

Nick,

I understand the idea of “mounted”as defined in a dictionary, but both vignettes and dioramas vary a bit in what we do and what it is described, I think. Also, as you can see from that photo, not all animal mounted figures are on a horse. 

Not to mention the phrase “bust” meant something different than my grandson anticipated.
 

I do remember one year at a National, they moved my diorama (4 figures and a car) from Figures but left another diorama stay with multiple figures and a vehicle stay in Figure dioramas. Too often that does happen unfairly. 

So, if there is a figure on a horse, one on a bear, and one of a motorcycle, what is the difference?

Dak

[Nick Filippone]

It is again the issue of “apples and oranges.” The fundamental principle of category creation and placement has been to try to keep similar entries competing against each other. There is, in fact, a BIG difference between a horse and a motorcycle and a BIG difference in the skill set required to competently and competitively complete each. That is not to say that the same modeler could not possess both skill sets. But these Uber modelers are few and far between. Most of us mere mortal “ object” modelers are unable to be even mediocre figure modelers while the quality of the work of those who model human and animal forms often borders on true art. Check out the figure work sometimes placed with ordinary tank or aircraft entries, and, when you stop laughing, you ask yourself why the modeler tainted a good Sherman or P-51 with crude, by comparison, figures. 
 

I always marvel at the regularity with which, each year, as the Nationals approach, there appears just such a conundrum of category placement, proposed by a modeler who, likely with tongue firmly implanted in cheek and, feigning ignorance of a competition in which he or she has participated for years, bedazzles and befuddles the membership with a virtual Gordian’s Knot of entangled rules. 😼😉

Have a nice day. Nick

 

[Dakimbrell]

It is always to see how thinks will go. One time, you enter in what you see as a basic reality and get blown away. The same project ends up in a different category and wins big in a way you didn’t think. We have that happen all the time. 
 

But I do see the way things end up often looks confusing.

Dak