Mark Aldrich Posted November 19, 2011 Report Posted November 19, 2011 Thanks to Gil Hodges commenting and making me contact the Author, Alex Yofe, who then verified that the aircraft I plan to model (1602) was indeed a late model G with staggered waist gunner positions I need help. Has anyone done this on a Monogram kit and if so how? If not does anyone one know of a thread, data, or whatever, so I can attempt it. Any help is always most appreciated!
ewahl Posted November 19, 2011 Report Posted November 19, 2011 Mark, allow me to express some educated guessing here. 1. Locate the new window on the right fuselage. An easy way to locate the top and bottom edges of the new opening is to use a straight edge on the top and bottom edges of the existing opening and draw your parallel lines forward. This establishes the height of the opening. 2. From the clear parts tree, use one of the newer style flush windows (with the gun mount in the center of the lower edge) to establish the width of the opening. Double check the height from this part as well and adjust one edge as needed. There are diagrams or photos that show you how far forward to locate the window from the old, existing location. Mark your vertical edges of the opening so that the clear part will just fit. 3. Use black electrician's tape to frame the new opening. Check again with the clear part for shape and size. Adjust as needed. 4. Cut out the new rectangular opening with the back of a new #11 blade tip by using the edge of the thick black tape as a scribing guide. Continue tracing the blade tip around the black frame until you progressively cut through the thickness of the fuselage. Be patient and careful; you can't cut through that much material in just a half dozen passes. 5. When the cut material comes out in a single piece, remove the tape and clean up the edges of the new opening only to remove raised burrs. Don't enlarge the hole! Remember, the clear piece has to fit. 6. If possible, use the curved plug from the new opening to fill in the existing hole. It may take some shims and putty if the plug is smaller by the thickness of your cutting blade, and the curve of the plug may be slightly flatter than the curve at the old opening farther back on the fuselage. Remember to cover existing details on the fuselage with tape to protect them from damage as you blend in the plug. This step should be a piece of cake for an experienced builder such as yourself. 7. Now you have a staggered opening for the right waist gunner. NOTE: This is how yours truly would do this. You may receive other suggestions with different techniques. I would not want to drill holes in the corners of the new opening for a coping saw blade or razor saw cutter because that would render the removed plug useless for filling the existing opening. Yes, sheet plastic could be used to make a new cover, but you will have to deal with the interior detail as well. I hope this helps you without raising your anxiety level too much. Good luck. If you need it, I can scan and post the relevant exterior view from the Academy kit instructions finishing guide. Ed
Mark Aldrich Posted November 19, 2011 Author Report Posted November 19, 2011 Ed, Your idea sounds good. The IAF never used the glass (too hot) so a perfect fit isn't critical. Thanks.
ghodges Posted November 20, 2011 Report Posted November 20, 2011 I did do the staggered windows on a B-17 build a while back (sold it though-no pics!), and I did it almost exactly as Ed outlined! The only other "reference" I'd add is that it appears the the right window was moved forward JUST enough to fit the fuselage insignia between the crew door and the rear of the window. If you look at some pics of those late B-17's I thnik you'll see what I mean. So, you can use the kit fuselage star/bar decal as a guide as to how far forward to relocate the new window. It sounds like a major job, but in reality it's only about 1 hour's worth of work! GIL
Mark Aldrich Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Posted November 20, 2011 Gil, Greatly appreciate the additional assistance! Mark
ewahl Posted November 22, 2011 Report Posted November 22, 2011 Hi, Mark, Here are two clips from the Academy B-17G instructions for the position of the staggered gunner's window on the right fuselage. I left you enough reference lines to locate the opening on the Monogram fuselage. I hope your questions are answered. Good luck with the conversion. Ed
Mark Aldrich Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Posted November 22, 2011 Ed, Thanks a ton. I have printed this off so when I start, I don't have to go looking for it again!
ghodges Posted November 23, 2011 Report Posted November 23, 2011 The only other comment I'll make is that after you do all of the work, it'll go largely UNNOTICED! You'll have the satisfaction of knowing you did it, but you (and others) seldom look at a model from directly above. You're almost always looking at a model from the vantage point of one side or the other, so the difference in the window positions isn't seen and appreciated unless someone is looking for it! You can use this to your advantage at times though, when you run short of lettering that's exactly the same size and/or font....not that I'd EVER resort to that sort of subterfuge.... GIL
Mark Aldrich Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Posted November 23, 2011 Gil, As I rarely look closely at 1/48 B-17s on tables, I wonder how many we built off the Pro-Modeler or Re-issue Visible kit with the Cheyenne Tail and did not stagger the windows? Something I will be looking at from now on!
ewahl Posted November 24, 2011 Report Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) Hi, Mark, Will a photo help? You can find this and other photos of this B-17G in the IPMS Galleries. Click on the Lone Star Flight Museum (there are two of them; this one is mine). I took this photo for details on the ball turret, not even thinking about the staggered gunner's location as being a late production change after thousands were built with opposing windows. So, actually, the photo is needed for the window details first. I'm curious about the wrinkled skin along the lower edge of the opening, though. Is this opening a factory job or a restoration alteration? Hmmmm.... Happy Thanksgiving! Ed Edited November 25, 2011 by ewahl
VonL Posted November 26, 2011 Report Posted November 26, 2011 (edited) Aside from having pix of the specific bird, the one true way to nail this item for accuracy is to compare the B-17 production blocks as listed in Detail & Scale, against the factory mods listed for each block of tail/serial numbers. (Caution: Many mods were applied at the field/depot level, such as cheek gun mounts, Cheyenne tail turret, etc.) I'll bet the staggered waist-gunner windows were factory-only and once you know the initial production block for that change, you're in there. D&S is not the only reference with this info. As much as I love the B-17, I don't usually go that deep and will play the 'artistic license' card, as needed...see 'field/depot mods' above. Edited November 26, 2011 by VonL
Mark Aldrich Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Posted November 26, 2011 That brings up another question? I take it (based on pictures) the waist gunner wind deflectors were removed in the later models/makes?
ewahl Posted November 27, 2011 Report Posted November 27, 2011 That brings up another question? I take it (based on pictures) the waist gunner wind deflectors were removed in the later models/makes? With the flush windows and integral machine gun mount, the waist gunner positions even without the wind deflectors were much better places to work without icy windblasts roaring through the fuselage. Of course, if the IAF removed the windows as you suggested, then the gun mount might have to be changed. I just saw a color photo on the title page of B-17 Flying Fortress In Action, Book #1219, that shows late B-17Gs flying in formation. Three have the staggered windows and one has opposed windows. Of the three with staggered windows, one has a Cheyenne turret and the other two have the original twin-gun mount. That said, I agree that you need to know the production block of the specific aircraft you want to model. Otherwise, do what you want and dare anyone to tell you it is wrong. Only your hairdresser, er, modeler, will know. Ed
ewahl Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 I just performed this conversion on the right fuselage half of the 1/48 Revell B-17F as part of a YB-40 conversion job. Move the window opening 32mm forward. I used the plug to fill the open hole of the original window. With some gap-filling super glue and then an application of Mr. Surfacer 1200, I blended in the plug so it looks like it was always there. Unlike the Monogram B-17G, which has the interior rib details, the Revell B-17F is smooth without details. I will have to add those with Evergreen strips on both fuselage halves opposite the open windows. They had the wind deflector at the new location. The XB-40 was the first application of the staggered windows. After testing, they were used on the YB-40s, then added to the production lines at Boeing, Douglas, and Vega during the B-17G model runs when it was demonstrated to be a good improvement. Unfortunately, the large cheek window on each side of the B-17F nose must be filled and replaced with a small window like the two others on each side, which is from the B-17E model. There were no ball sockets for machine guns in any of the windows or in the front nose piece. The new chin turret had the nose guns on the YB-40. Ed
Mark Aldrich Posted March 3, 2012 Author Report Posted March 3, 2012 I am not quite that bad off. Once I get the opening moved, all I need to do is sand off the wind deflectors and add the ribbing to the one side.
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