Dakimbrell

I have participated in three types of judging methods in the past two weeks. In one, Oklahoma's SoonerCon, I was also a judge. One thing I noted as a judge was the reticence of many entrants to fill out any notes on their model, even when the model exhibits out of the ordinary features like duel national markings. This always puts the judges in a difficult position....if the model is well done, but grossly incorrect in a big way.....the judges must decide how that effects craftsmanship. If they ignore the faux pas, then many will think the judges are no-nothing idiots. If they figure it in as a demerit, then the builder says they were elitist and rivet counters. While I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to some areas and subjects, certain outrages are too far out. Things like Tiger II tanks at El Alamein, A6M5 in Russian markings at Stalingrad. I have no problem with weird stuff, but there are categories for that. Encouraging contest entrants to let the judges know what they are looking at and what the builder was trying to do, would go a long way towards helping the judges make better decisions. Another thing I noted was that the non-IPMS groups often take into account skill level. When everyone starts talking about GSB vs 123, they don't seem to mention skill level. I am positive this effects some people. A newbie who enters for the first time and gets thrown in the deep end with the old hands can feel really worked over when they don't place. (Sometimes they win big, which is even worse.) So, perhaps rather than try to change our awards system, we should look at modifying it to take into account skill level. Novice, advanced, and master, for example. Less ridged judging for the newbies and tighter for the masters. Thoughts? Dak

Lets make something clear, I was not apologetic in my conversation with my acquaintance. I told him we never did judge like he suggested and never had. His remark was based on what he was told by a head judge where he was judging. I have been continually telling lackwits who insist we are rivet counters that they are full of it enough to make their eyes brown. The big thing is different groups look at different points as to what is good craftmanship. This in turn makes some think other groups are too picky, or not picky enough. One thing that would help is stressing to contestants that they should NEVER assume the judges KNOW EVERYTHING about the subject being judged and note things like deliberate gaps, seams crooked markings, etc. I have lost count of the times I saw something that did not look correct and found nothing in the remarks box. A simple comment like....the marking on the left side is deliberately crooked....would help. Many do excellent work, but based on craftmanship, it looks bad. This in turn would make it easier for the judge to make better decisions.+ But in the end, any award is based on the opinion of the judges and that is still only an opinion of a small group, a mere handful of people. Dak

Nick, Why do you feel the need to just be rude? Do you just sit at the computer looking for some way to be mean nasty to people? No wonder people get down on IPMS. I posted here to discuss what is a problem I feel we need to address, yet you immediately start calling people names and insulting them. Your remark was silly and bigoted, because you automatically put this person into the lackwitted I hate IPMS group, and he is not. He was simply repeating a silly myth. The individual I was talking to is familiar with IPMS. He is also a top level figure painter. What I was trying to point out was that there is still adherents to the stupid rivet counter myth among top quality, experienced model artists. No, I don't give a negative clank about what the sour grapes wannabes. They do nothing but sit and whine rather than try to get better. But this man was not like that and has plenty of experience, probably as much as you. I agree we judge on craftmanship, but as I noted, what is good craftmanship depends a lot on what you consider the proper style. I have learned there are numerous styles and can judge models based on the style of the workmanship. Some cannot. To me, a un-weathered model is poorly done. I also feel the same about a model without a figure with it. Super clean models are boring to me and come across as amateurish, but some feel differently which is fine. Dak

The guy I was talking with was not some sour grapes loser. In fact, one of his group was a was a judges award winner at an IPMS National a few years ago. This is why I see it as a PR problem that needs to be addressed. I engaged him and pointed out we done judge on accuracy and gave him my general view of the Chicago school of judging. I don't think I changed his mind, but he had something to think about when we were done. Part of the problem is style. Figure painters. car guys, track heads, etc, all see craftsmanship differently. I have been often criticized by aircraft guys for making my airplanes too dirty for their taste. But when I look at an F-15....for example.... with foot prints all over the upper services, I tend to think most airplane models are under weathered and thus poorly crafted. I also feel the majority of figures are over shaded. This doesn't mean they aren't pretty and well crafted, but just that they are done in a different style. Nick's last comment is exactly the kind of silly comment that puts many off, rather than engaging in dialogue which can find common ground. It also implies he has no understating of how the figure judging works. Dak

Nick, You over step here. This particular model builder....a top level figure painter.....is DEFINITIVELY not a low performer. (I would post images of his stuff, if the stupid system allowed me to post more than 0.002mb.) Nor am I suggesting we apologize for anything. I simply think we need to address the misperceptions many seem to have about IPMS Judging instead of ignoring them. I blame a lot of this negativity on Bob Letterman of VLS , back in the nineties. VLS put out a lot of mediocre products and Letterman got very defensive and began making extremely negative statements about IPMS being too picky, etc. I spend some time explaining we don't count rivets, or hang up on detail points. I still think our system needs simplification and modification, but I like it infinitely better than point systems used by some groups. Unfortunately, some chapters use their own system disregarding the National system. Many people perceive these to BE the IPMS system having never seen a National convention. Dak, National Contest Judge

I was at a non IPMS style contact yesterday.....one I attend annually....and got into a discussion about judging methods. These guys are primarily figure painters and view models differently than most IPMS members. My acquaintance remarked they were admonished not to be like IPMS when judging; "don't count rivets!". I told him we don't do that and I never have, nor have ever been at a contest where I have seen judges apply such stringent measures. However, he and other still believe this silly myth. They are firmly convinced IPMS are insane for accuracy and will throw out a beautiful work for some trivial point. This is a public relation problem we need to address if we want to sustain or grow the membership. It is not something that can simply be ignored in this day and time with in the age of the world wide web. Like all those internet myths that keep making the rounds, it keeps building until it becomes an established truth in the mind of people who should no better. We ignore it at our peril. Dak

I am not sure what this statement has to do with the conversation. It is not about the quality of their work, but about why they hate IPMS. They are oblivious to their personality problems and how they effected others in the group. These "haters" tend to lash out at anyone that doesn't want to play their way or takes exception to their actions and they are incapable of grasping their social awkwardness. Dak

David, I don't disagree with you basic remarks, but I was speaking in more general terms. Explaining it to a head judge is easy, because he is experienced and understands your reasoning. Explaining it to an angry, self-absorbed, belligerent, contestant is a different matter. "That doesn't matter" is their favorite phrase. Unpainted plastic, it doesn't matter. Crooked parts, that shouldn't matter. They often start extolling how the model we didn't like won numerous awards at other contests all the time ignoring the words "other contests".On the other end, explaining why three guys picked the Ferrari over the Mustang to a hard core Mustang guy is a headache. Telling a modeler you bumped him down because of a small fleck of hard to see dust is ridiculous. I have lots of friends who look at my stuff long before it gets to a contest. They are more than willing to point out all the problems in extreme detail. If it is something I can fix, I will, but if it is unfixable without rebuilding the model, I will take the hit and just accept it. I simply don't want to hear what the judges thought, because form past experience, they will not help me and I don't really think they help anyone else. There are countless sites and magazines showing of models and techniques which show what most consider good models. Why does anyone need to ask a contest judge after the event? Dak

In the cases I’m referring to, there was no real tie. The judging team had no real problem coming to an agreement. It is just that in the end we saw it as a toss up. When we ran the choice by the head judge, he had no problem with our decision. Dak

I’m not speaking about hypothetical scenarios. I base my remarks on what I have experienced. I don’t want to name names or give exact place and times out of politeness, but it all has happened. Dak

When you get down to the very end and have to choose between two very nice models....one with a little silvering of a decal and another with the trace of a mold release mark.... but otherwise equal in work, you have to make a choice based on simple appeal. Sometimes that means you pick the one you personally like most. Bluntly, any judge that won't admit this is deluding themselves. Everyone has pet peeves that they pick on. Trying to explain this tiny almost trivial point to a self-absorbed person without them getting angry is impossible. In 2015, I had to choose between a model with a bad decal and one with a cracked window. One got a 1st and one got a 2nd. The only other model there got 3rd. In ANY other category, NONE would have placed. I have been judging model contests since 1972, and have attended and/or entered a contest every year since 1969. I looked at lots of models and take my responsibility as a judge seriously. I have seen judges debate for thirty minutes whether water running by a log should have had more wake, then bump it because of such a silly point. I have seen arguments on whether a ship should be bumped because it had no anchor. You can say we don't judge accuracy, but enter your P-51 without a propeller and see how far you get. I bet the guy with the micro dust speck thought it was irrelevant. And to me, it would be too. This is the biggest reason I would prefer a GSB system, and this is also why I don't want to have feedback. Knowing about that tiny speck will not improve my work. It would be something impossible to plan for because you won't know about it until it is done and then it is too late. And quite frankly, building at my level, I would never ask why I didn't win first. My ego is not so shallow that I have to have explanations for every non win. Dak

Capricious? When you are choosing between two equally good models, both with equal, but different flaws. It is impossible to explain your choice to someone. If you really want to improve things, we should ditch the category system and go to a skill level division set up using GSB. Dak

The problem is that most entrants don't want or need feedback on their work. In most cases, they are quite aware of their short comings. What most want to know is why the other guy won, which judges are not allowed to discuss. As I commented earlier, The difference between a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is often the mental flip of a coin. Trying to explain that to a disgruntle contestant is unpleasant. Sometimes, it is not even possible. Dak

At the last national where I judged, we had the basic issue of the top four models, in the category, all being very good. In the end, we made the final choice based on our personal preferences. All the entries were good, and all had minor defects, just different ones. Quite frankly, any could have been first. I have found this to be quite common particularly on the inverse...all are equally poor. If there is a gap on the real thing....the base of the Panther cupola, for example.... and the judge says the reason I lost was because I didn't fill it, then I am a bit annoyed. We always judge accuracy, to some degree. That is why we don't like seams on the wing of the Spitfire, or silvered decals, or misaligned parts, etc. I have seen silicone used so heavily on real aircraft that the REAL thing would not win an IPMS awards. There has long been an ongoing debate on the correctness of some weathering. Even providing information does not always work. I once provided pictures to back up everything I did. The judge told me they never looked at the information. Another even told me he only judges on craftsmanship and never looks a documentation. This is why I no longer want "feedback" from judges. Give me an award or don't, I don't want to know what the judge thought. Ignorance is bliss. I maintain what people really want is to hear why the other model won, not why theirs didn't. Personally, I ALWAYS look at the documentation. When I see something odd...like poorly hand painted markings, for example, I assume it is poor craftsmanship, unless I see some documentation. As for Open/GSB, I like it, but the final factor will be cost. I don't believe it can be implemented with out some major funding for the needed awards or going to a generic award purchased on a National level. Dak

The definitions of art and craft overlap. Regardless of whether you are carving a twenty foot marble statue or a 1/72nd Spitfire kit, the process is basically the same...inspiration, planning, rough work, and fine finishing. Removing unwanted stone is fundamentally the same as smoothing out the edge of a wing. Everyone posting here knows quite well what IPMS judges look for during the contest. As noted, that information is quite well known and easily accessible. You also are aware a model is judged relative to other models in the category. A model that places first in a field of four might not place in a field of ten. Everyone also knows judges are often unfamiliar with the subjects they are judging and that they will sometimes mistake an accurate element as a failure in craftsmanship. This has happened to me on several occasions. How would you feel if the seam or bad paint you judged as poorly done craftmanship turned out to be accurate? How can you explain to a contestant that the model did not win because when choosing between a Spitfire and a P-51..... both excellently done.... that the Spitfire won because they liked the camouflage better than natural metal? Can open; worms everywhere. Why is that a good idea? Dak

I just do not feel judges comments are truly helpful in any measure. In a field of entries where most of the contestants are experienced model builders, the margin for mistakes is paper thin. On any given day, the difference is little more than the flip of a coin. I don't mean they flip a coin, but that the judges find two entries so close either could be first place, etc. To try and quantify the "why" of the choice is simply a truth people don't really want to hear and offering it is going to just make people angry. We chose this one simply because we liked the paint scheme. We liked Ferraris better than Mustangs. The ammunition brass is too bright. The mold seam on your undercarriage is more important than the seam on the other guy's wing. People don't want to hear that sort of thing, but in the final cut, that is what happens. I don't think people really want feedback on their model, but rather what people really want is to understand why a model they see as inferior beat them out. That is not going to happen. Dak

I was reading the "survey" and one thing I am personally opposed to is feedback comments from the Judges. It has NEVER been a good experience for me and if there was a specific place on the form for judges remarks, I would scratch through it. All the criteria used by judges is well know and easily accessed by the public. It is also doubtful any defect...."a seam on the wing", for example...will ever be changed on a finished model. At least not on mine. Having been a judge many times, I have often found a model that did not win, was not a bad work. It simply lacked something intangible which is virtually impossible to convey to a disgruntle modeler. Try explaining that the model is to clean and neat. Or that it is over weathered. Model building is an art and perfection is not an option. All I want from the judges is fair and experienced judging. Dak

N3200 sank in the sand and was recovered in the 1980s, then restored to flying condition. Dak

N3200 on the beach. I sank in the sand and was recovered in the eighties. Later restored to flying condition. Dak

Yes, they seem overly sensitive to me. Particularly sense the only ones posting areclearly adults and not upset with the discussion. Dak

Yes, I check before hand if I think there is a question. But every now and then something gets moved for what is and arbitrary reason. In the past, I tried to find out why, and got double talk. Dak

Actually, many things said on prime time tv would be band here. Dak

They do seem overly dramatic.

Disqualifying models at an American contest is what sends mobs into the halls with torches and pitchforks while the judges run like hunted animals. 😝

Like I say, if they move it, I simply withdraw it. I got tired of the rationalization about why something should be moved. It's just easier and causes less headache. Actually, I disagree with the idea judges have more experience than the entrants. I think it is about even. Lots of contest goers ….like me... have been doing it for decades. Dak