Dakimbrell

This is only partially true. The individual which prompted me to start this string is an excellent figure painter and hardly can be considered a loser. I agree some... and Rusty knows exactly who I'm talking about....are sore losers and trying to blame everyone but themselves for their problems. But you can't say that about groups like AMPS, for example. Dak

Ok, so we have clearly identified the problems. So, what do we do about them? My solutions is a specific Public Relations campaign to address these issues and show they are not true. For example, I am considering creating a free handout for my local store on basics for improving your model. For example, many novices don't think about seams and mold marks and can't understand why these things are important. It would not talk about contests, but merely promote what most groups accept as good, basic work. This sort of thing could be done on an individual basis. It could both promote the local chapter as well as the national one. A re-design of the regionals and Nationals..... and possibly local chapter contest like Scalefest and SoonerCon…to allow the entrant to choose her/his skill level for the contest. Say levels....Novice, Intermediate, and Master. For those who feel intimidated, it gives a more tempting way to get their feet wet than swimming with the big dogs. Thoughts, anyone? Dak

Gil, you are correct, at least to some degree. But as I noted, some model builders and their families feel model building is not an appropriate adult behavior. It is a staple of sit-coms to talk about how pathetic model builders are.....usually train people....and we need to over come that attitude. I know some feel we are intimidating. I don't really understand this aspect because participating with top flight modelers is a draw for me. Perhaps we should take a more aggressive approach. If you want to build better models, then be part of an organization that builds good models. The current 'ahh shucks, we ain't special" attitude isn't working all that well. I have to wonder where and when the idea started we are an elite group. I noted IPMS and most of the local chapters, don't require an audition to join or have a probationary period. Nor does anyone have to win at other contests to qualify to enter the National. However, it does cost quite a bit to attend a National, if it is far enough away you need an hotel and I know that intimidates some. However, I doubt we can change that. One thing that would help is for more members to write articles for the Journal to show more diversity in subject matter. For example, I do cars on occasion, but I'm not a car guy, so any article I pen is not going to impress the car guys and make them want to join the society. If you can post here, you can write an article for the Journal. Another thing that could fight the intimidation factor is to change contests to consider skill levels. Let the entrant pick the level which she/he is comfortable. Other groups do this. Also, we could make more effort to recruit female members. Also, advertise at colleges: show how model building relates to architecture, engineering, history, theater, and yes, art. Dak

The general public is not reading these long forums. Additionally, who died and made you the moral judge of exactly what is an appropriate. Dak

This is a big part of our PR problem, although a bit different from what I originally posted about. Noel, you have not answered my question about Rembrandt's Night Watch and my diorama Capturing The Moment? Why is one art and the other not? (ignoring the size difference.) The diorama (as a whole) is not a kit. It is a composite of many elements to create a scene and tell a story. The idea is as original as the Night Watch and similar in concept. All the fore thought which goes into doing a model, is virtually the same as a that for a painting. Inspiration, choice of subject, research, and point of view. The final choice in how it is to be displayed is also an important element. Taken as a whole, Capturing The Moment is a grouping of many different elements. The placement of each element was carefully considered for visual effect in much the same way Rembrandt posed his figures if the Night Watch. Even if it is nothing but Found Art, it is original in concept. So, please explain WHY this is not an art form. No one can force you to be considered and artist. I am only pointing out by accepting what we do as art, we will appeal to many who at first thought we are only a group of children. The simple changing of a word here would make a big difference. Dak

Try staying on topic, Nick

Why won't you change your mind? I find when presented with sound evidence it is prudent to adjust my thinking. I will never understand why being thought of as an artist seems to actually offend some. It is not like you have to wear a yellow star or have a restriction on your driver's license. Consider model building Found Art, if you will. It is actually a real thing, look it up if you don't believe me. In the end, a change of a few words can alter public perception. We see it all the time...cars are no longer used, but pre-owned, its a loft apartment, not a renovated warehouse. You weren't fired, just positively transitioned. Calling an event an accident sounds better than saying I did something really stupid. 😱 If we listed the National Convention and Contest as a convention and exhibition of model art, public perceptions would change. People who would pass by a model contest, might stop for a look at an art exhibition. Those who thought model building was for children might take it up as a hobby. Dak

We don't make people audition to join IPMS or our local chapters. Nor do you have to qualify to enter a National contest. Pretty much put your money down and you are in. Hardly a snooty and exclusive organization. All things have multiple levels. Some fish to relax; some fish in tournaments. Some play golf for the exercise and some play in the PGA. Not all doctors are surgeons. Is Mick Jagger any less a musician than Beethoven? Just because there are multiple levels does not mean anything. I know several people who paint and draw for pleasure, only. Yet, people automatically see them as artists. I think most people have simply been programed to accept model building as something children do, something trivial. I know of at least one man who sold his stash because his wife felt it was too childish for a grown man. Intimidating? I never felt intimidated. My only concern has been the etiquette of a particular group, not whether I am good enough a model builder. In fact, the better a group is, the more I want to join it for the same reason you play chess with good chess players.....you get better hanging out with people who are better at it than you are. You never learn or improve if you get a pat on the back for everything you do. It is this repeated retreat, this self-inflicted sense of inferiority, that causes us problems. We don't want offend anyone, we must be all things to everyone, at all times. There are those who won't join IPMS because they think it is just a bunch of kids and losers hanging out. They build models, but keep it on the down low so friends and colleagues don't find out. By stating out right what we do is art, many people will want to come see for themselves. Respect for yourself is a requirement to get respect from others. But this does not mean we have to be bullies on the street. A simple change in attitude, an added line on the cover of the Journal and advertisements for events can go a long way towards changing the attitude of the general public. Just because it is a hobby doesn't mean it isn't art. Dak

LOL. Noel, I don't see how you can disagree that model building is an art form. The terms art and craft are synonyms. The basic process a modeler uses to create a finished model is no different than a photographer, painted, or sculptor in in choosing a subject and bringing it to completion. Not every picture or painting are great masterpieces. And not all artists achieve lasting fame. And not every model is world class. That some prefer Picasso and Pollock over Rembrandt and Wyeth is no different than those who prefer 1/35th armor models over 1/25th cars, or figures over ships, dioramas over prize cow models. Model building has a wide range and subjects and the techniques vary just like a painter or sculptor. Any tourist with a mobile phone can take the same picture Ansel Adams did. What makes Rembrandt's Night Watch real ART and a diorama of surrendering German soldiers NOT art? Dak

Noel, I can see you did not look up the definitions as I asked. The to key terms ART and CRAFT overlap each other and show as synonyms. While we may start with a kit, the final result is a product of the individual builder. Even when doing the exact same subject and kit, very rarely do the models come out precisely the same, hence showing the creativity of the individual. I say we should promote our conventions as exhibitions of model art. Many would come to look out of curiosity, if nothing else. When we say model contest, to many this evokes the image of a child's activity and dismiss it as something cool for children. (What's in a name....well no restaurant serves spaghetti with marinara fungus sauce; it is always called marinara mushrooms sauce.) When I took my father to the 2104 national at Hampton, and he was stunned at the level and quality if the work. (his own words) He had seen my stuff for years, but never been to any of the events and never grasp the range and level of the wok that can be achieved with a model kit. As I said, not all art is great art, nor are all models great work. Many seem to perceive ART as GREAT ART; that to be art, it somehow must be in the range of those like Rembrandt. Remember, Churchill was a painter, even though he did dabble in politics. Dak

Noel and others, This is going to anger a few people, so please go and look up the definitions of the key words before telling me I am full of it and insane. If we truly want to see the society grow as well as model building in general, then we need to start thinking of what we do as art. For some reason, many act like it is something to do alone and in secret; as if they were mildly ashamed of what they do. Perhaps they are afraid to admit they indulge in a so called "childish" hobby. Many will agree it is a craft, but run from the idea that a well done model kit or diorama in an art. Many still seem to think our organization is more for children than adults and thus we can only do things appropriate for children to see. And many constantly re-enforce this attitude. Much of liking art is based on personal tastes, the same as model work. But the fact remains, very few people.... even a trained artist....can do what we do. There is no reason a well done model of an F-15 cannot be viewed and enjoyed as well as a still life of a fruit bowl. Or the nude figure of a pretty girl any different than a painting of the same girl. All representational art is created much through the same methods we use to build a model and the end result is always a product of the mind's eye. Nor is every model great art, any more than every painting is great art. For some reason which I can't understand, some feel like all ART is always GREAT ART. Not every mural is the Sistine Chapel; some just decorate the wall of the local restaurant. Not every artist is Rembrandt or Frazetta and not every modeler is Shepard Paine or Jim Wechsler. By stating we see our work as art, we move it into an area where we would be taken more seriously. Instead of promoting it as a model contest, promote it as an exhibition of model art. It would become something people aspire to see and do, even if it offends them on occasion. Dak

This is the one point so many forget when they start complaining about IPMS. It is much easier for specialty groups like AMPS to tailor their rules and judging to conform to a much smaller field. Yet, as has been noted, they still rely on the same basic criteria as IPMS to judge the work and a large percentage of them will flock to an IPMS national. Some even belong to both groups so they can enter the contests. That would suggest contests are important to a large number of model builders. In more recent years, IPMS has begun to take other groups into consideration and tailor the rules to better fit these specialties. If the car guys, for example, don't want to participate, there is no reason to create categories and rules more suited to the type of model. So, the idea that IPMS doesn't care about a particular subject is re-enforced by lack of participation which feeds the opinions of our detractors. Sort of a self fulfilling prophecy thing. Dak

Basically, this is true. However, AMPS makes a judgement about the model, not its standing among a group, as IPMS does. Amps tells a person "your model is only this good"; IPMS tells them "your model is not as good as that one, today." In theory, a model judged by AMPS method would get the same award at any AMPS contest. With IPMS the model might not place one year and get a 1st the next. The sole entrant in an AMPS category might only get a bronze...maybe not that, while the sole entrant in an IPMS category would get a 1st place. That is why AMPS is far more picky than IPMS. Both systems have their merit and I simply say I like the IPMS system better and feel it is far less critical of an individual's work. FYI, I enter several models and some I have no expectation winning an award, thus they are by default a model for display. And what do you base your opinion. Mine comes from witnessing first hand the people who show up at contests. Many of those who won't join IPMS are the types who have been ostracized from clubs because of bad behavior. They got angry or weren't treated as they thought they should. We have had many come to meetings who seem to expect some special treatment. Literally, if you didn't gush over their model, they felt insulted. Other were asked to leave for disrupting the meetings, or even bad hygiene. I welcome anyone that wants to come and build models, but there is a certain level of civilized behavior expected. When I lived in Virginia, one member of the local club would call up members and call them racial slurs, when he was drunk; not the sort you wanted around, IMO. And I ask, what is you proof the Society is "all about contests"? I hear this a lot, but see NOTHING to support it beyond my earlier statement. And that is my point: it is in reality a myth that has been spread by people as and excuse to dislike IPMS, because it sounds much better to say that rather than admit you were asked to leave because you constantly stank of beer and cigarettes. As noted ALL the other major groups have or offer as many contests as IPMS. The difference is they tend to be subject specific. If you build cars, you would rather compete and be judged by people most familiar with car models. All these groups have criteria particular to their genre. That is one of the reasons AMPS got started; IPMS had become heavily aero-centric, in the 80s, and it often seemed like they were trying to drive out the armor guys. They enacted some really stupid rules which effected mostly just armor. Fortunately, enough of us stuck around to see that change. Dak

In response to Ralph's question about my AMPS remark. The AMPS judging I have participated in consisted of teams that looked over the individual model in fine detail. Each aspect was awarded points based on the individual team members opinion. The team was required to all look at the same aspect or area at the same time. I found it to be a much more regimented approach and personally, did not enjoy it. It was a much more intense examination of the work than I have experienced in IPMS methods. While there was no set standard, it is much more like judging against a standard than in an IPMS contest. Of course, the objective is different. In AMPS the model is judged on its own where as in most IPMS events, the model is judged against other models in the category. A model that only gets a bronze at AMPS might get a 2nd or possibly a 1st at IPMS, depending on the competition. Dak

There are plenty of people that believe they are building fantastic models, but really aren't and when they do not win, they become bitter making excuses that have nothing to do with the quality of their work. The pictures I posted are a perfect example, because up close, you could see seam lines on the figures. I believe the idea that many say they aren't interested in competition is a fanciful claim. I see many who make the claim, but they show up at the contests and happily accept awards. I believe most who make the claim are simply doing it to sound humble. (Locally, we just had the head of the IPMS haters group.....who openly state they don't like contests...show up at our local show and win awards.) Nor do I accept the premise that IPMS is all about contests. That to is a myth created by those who wish to denigrate the organization. ALL the other modeling groups have contest on a national level. Two years ago, the figure guys held a world wide level contest shortly before our National and many of our members participated in it. One of the first things AMPS ever did was to have a National level contest. All these events get called conventions, but there is usually contest which attracts a big turn out and many attending them also attend IPMS events. Reading these posts, I feel you make IPMS sound like we are trying to seduce people to contests like a guy with a windowless van and candy. Or perhaps we turn people into pariahs if they will not or can't attend a National. In forty-two years, I have never seen anything which pushes people to attend enter contests. Certainly, the convention/contests get promoted because a good bit of effort and money has been expended to put them together. And yes, we tell people to attend, if they can, because the event is a learning experience on many different levels. It is important how people perceive us because just as some of you have bought into the falsehood, non-members are even more likely to accept the myth without examining it closely. Generally speaking, these other clubs are specialty groups, cars, only for example. That's fine if you have a narrow interest range, but if you are the renaissance type and dabble in many areas, IPMS is the better place. That is what I have come to enjoy the most about IPMS; the variety. That variety makes me a better model builder because I learn techniques in one area and carry them over to another area. In the past year alone, I have provided information with a number of single subject builders who never thought how something from XYZ could be used in ABC. So, If you think IPMS emphasizes contests too much, what do you suggest? Should we completely eliminate the contests on all levels? How would you promote IPMS? What do you think would happen if we quit having contests and other groups continued having them? Dak

Model building is an art and nothing emphasizes this than the anger people exhibit over being told their creation is poor or not good enough. There have always been those who resent not winning and they are never going away. However, the myth that IPMS is all about contests and excessively nitpicky really got started in the 90s by Bob Letterman of VLS. At that time, the VLS products were getting a bad reputation for bad detail, fit, accuracy, and generally being a poor product, which they were. In the monthly VLS flyer, Letterman ranted on numerous occasions about how their products were sound, but IPMSers were getting to picky and demanding; IPMS simply didn't get how grand the VLS products were. This is when VLS created Mastercon, what has now become Eaglequest. This contest was a superb place for those who want to build grand, but with not worrying about reality or even close scrutiny of their model. See the pictures (FYI, 1/35th scale) as an example. If IPMS is guilty of anything, it is trying to be fair. (Now, if you want picky, look at AMPS judging) That is the biggest reason models get looked at so tightly. There is always good work there and some are so close, it is extremely difficult to decide which is the best. This means, from time to time, the judges will get something wrong. John is correct that new more specialized groups have effected the membership. Additionally, the internet has spawned greater communication and splinter groups. Some find it is more fun to hang with only those of similar interests. It is also true people develop new or different interests as they mature. I had dropped out of IPMS back in the 80s when the aircraft lobby was seemed to be trying to make the IPMS a strictly airplane club. I came back because I have many interests and found AMPS too restrictive in subject. It is true many just build for whatever pleasure they get and have no interest in contests. Some don't see any use in being a member. Those are not the problem. What is the problem is the continued repetition of the picky myth and the myth we are only about contests. And they are myths. Yet, we...IPMS.... don't seem to be making any concrete effort to oppose them and that will hurt us in the future. Dak

I strongly disagree. I have found 99% of those who call IPMS to picky and ad all about contests to be people that mediocre at best and must find a way to justify not winning. They don't win because they have visible seams, glue and miss aligned parts. They then get angry because others do a better job. Jealously, pure and simple. I have seen them do this for fifty years and I find it sadly amusing to hear them make complaints like " I can't afford the good kits", or "look how much work I put into this model, the crooked parts shouldn't matter." (These are literally two statements made to me.) Many do not join IPMS simply because they are cheap and lazy. They do like to win, but are not willing to do even basic work, nor are they willing to learn and improve. IPMS is not perfect, and I for one have seen some really stupid rules over the years. But given some of the stuff I have seen win and been FORCED to give awards to, I know we are not picky. Dak

LOL You should try Africa and Pakistan for bad roads and traffic.

FYI, it is farther from my house to Chattanooga than from Scapa Flow to London. In the UK, they think 100 miles is a long way. In the US they think 100 years is a long time. Dak

Just finished the MiniArt T-54B. The figure is from DEF.

How is being competitive in model building any different than soccer, golf, tennis or horse racing? The only difference is modeling building tends to be a personally creative and people tend to feel personally hurt or offended when others don't reward their work. Human beings are by nature competitive. Competition breeds innovation. There is no doubt the desire to win has improved the art of model building and help drive manufactures to make better models. Is all competition good, certainly not. Some take it too seriously and that requires more and new rules every year. Everything has certain inherent standards which some ignore or refuse to acknowledge. For example, a guy I know steadfastly refuses to address seams. He either leaves them open or filled with globs of glue. Otherwise he does basically good work. Yet, he doesn't understand why IPMS puts so much importance on filling seams. I have explained it to him, but he doesn't think it should matter. Dak

How realistic a technique is done is a question of accuracy. Which is what I am saying, the two often go hand in hand. We may not judge how many rivets are accurate, or the shade of paint, but a big glue glob along the wing root is both poor craftmanship AND (generally) not accurate. However some glue globs in some places might be. Fogging around the edges of some canopies might also be accurate. My point is the builder needs to let the judges know if this is done deliberately. Encouraging more people to fill out the comments box is something which could pay us back with happier entrants and better informed judges. Dak

Back on topic, I have been doing a little local research and found those who grinch the most about IPMS being too picky, etc, also don't make much effort to fill out the comments/note section on an entry form. One guy said he didn't understand what the box was for? When people do weird things, they need to note and explain them. We talk about only judging craftsmanship and not accuracy, but these things often over lap. We don't like seams and globs of glue because the are not accurate. I recently had some AMPS guys say the weathering was overdone on a model, yet all the weathering was based on specific photos which I should have included with the entry sheet. Or is heavy weathering poor craftsmanship? Dak

Actually, any ranking would be by the individual entrant. It would be a personal choice same as in other groups. There may need to be a provision for those that need to be move to a high skill level, but like winning in the shallows. Why? If the choice is a personal one, why would you resent others who whish to play in deeper water. The real problem will be those who think they are grand masters when they are actually dilettantes. Those will be the types the most resentful. I have always said the OOB stuff is outmoded and should be eliminated. This would absorb some of the cost, if any. OOB would no longer be needed because there would be a place for those to enter without having to swim with the big fish. While I agree with the basic premise, I have found in application it doesn't hurt to remind people to do things. Like making sure the breaker is tagged out before working on a system. Some people always need that reminder. If putting up a sign at a show, or a paragraph in the newsletter, helps reduce the unhappiness of those that enter the contest, it is a cost effective why to go. Dak

Absolutely true, but there is a difference between putting something in the rules which a large number of people NEVER read and say posting a sign at the registration desk telling people to note out of the ordinary stuff, or the judges may consider it a mistake. This needs to be a deliberate public campaign within IPMS, not just a note in the rules.That is my point. This all depends on your point of view. I have always viewed such things as part of craftmanship because we....IPMS.... are predominately historical in our subject matter. Even the Sci-Fi types will have fits if you mix Star Trek and Star Wars. If you are going to allow anything anywhere, then why consider "craftmanship" at all. Go ahead, let the builder do crude, hand painted markings....maybe the ground crew was in a hurry and didn't have time to do it properly; maybe the stencils were blown up in an air raid. Maybe some other pilots painted a finger print on the canopy as a joke and the builder is just duplicating that effect. What if an extraneous decal got place in an odd spot.....like a RAF tail flash slipping to the horizontal stabilizer? Is that something to give the benefit of the doubt? I have a picture of a real drop tank with the FWD arrow pointing to the rear. If I saw this on a model, as a judge, I would like to know if this was deliberate or not. A good friend of mine recently put some fuel tanks on his Mig-21 backwards. He did a smash up job and they looked very nice. Do we just ignore things like that? Many things are to strange to be believed, but nothing is too strange to have happened. It is not just quality of the application of parts and markings, but getting them in the right place going the right direction, which is good craftmanship. Sure, I want to know what was scratch or modified, but I have found many seem to believe giving a rivet by bolt account of the construction is helpful, which I don't find the least bit helpful. If someone is doing a Type 21 Zero in Defense of the Luftwaffe markings, I'd like to know the origin of the markings. Particularly, if it is up against a perfect Fw-190D in the same markings. It could be done within the current system; there is no reason to go to a GSB system to address skill level. Dak