Dakimbrell

I have no idea as I am not a member of that group. My remarks are based on examining the AMPS judging sheet of a friend. I did not judge but the IPMS side seemed to be fine. Dak

Ralph. My point is that the AMPS system is just as susceptible to errors as any other system. The IPMS system is no more inclined to to pick "losers" than AMPS. IPMS is only saying these are the top three at a given place and time. AMPS doesn't give awards to ALL entries, so that could be construed as choosing "losers". A loser is someone who is slower than the tiger we are all running from. My main argument is that it is ridiculous to try to grade creativity with a score sheet. AMPS has never objectively tested the system. Like strategic bombing in WWII, they insist it works, but actual results show it isn't any better, just different. It works only because that is how they have chosen to do it. If you like to participate in the AMPS contests, that's fine. However, I choose not to and really don't want IPMS to adopt that sort of judging system. It seems unpleasant to have a number placed on your model. A number which, in theory, it would get in any AMPS contest. In IPMS, every contest is a new day. No place at the regional and get a third at the National. A whole different contest. I'd be happy to see the the IPMS system go to a GSB style as long as they keep the actual judging in the same format they currently use. I was a member of AMPS 20 years ago and dropped out because I got tired of bellyaching about IPMS and because I found it to be too regimented for my taste. I attended the local chapter when they started, but dropped out for the same reason. Dak

Ralph, FYI, these were not new judges. All had done it many times before. I am familiar with the AMPS system having entered it's contests and even judged under the system All that made me like it even less and come to love the free range judging of IPMS much more. However, I'll admit my perspective is limited to my region. Additionally, IPMS and AMPS are looking for two different things. AMPS is looking to rate an individual's model. Tag it, and say this is how good we think it is. IPMS is simply saying on this day, in this category, these are the three best entries. Tomorrow, at a different event, the results may be quite different. IMO, in the AMPS judging, it is too easy for an individual to skew the results. Personally, I find judging with the AMPS method too rigid and very unpleasant. The IPMS method is more free flowing with the sharing of observations and information. In the end, both methods are opinions based on the experience and skills of the judges. I just feel the AMPS system applied to an IPMS contest would ruin the conventions. On a secondary note, at this event, the method is to hold the models away from the public until it has been judged. That means most of the models don't get seen by the public until late in the day (they are brought out one at a time). Early visitors never get to see all the armor and that really sucks. Dak

Recently, we had a local contest. The chapter sponsoring it went in with the local AMPS chapter to split the cost. AMPS handles the basic armor categories. I rarely enter armor, at this show, because I don't like the AMPS methodology and here is why. My friend Mark did enter a Sherman tank. The three scores on his sheet were 9, 8.5 and 6.5. Now, a point spread of perhaps a point is to be expected, but 2-2.5 is way too much. I understand they like to throw out the low score, but this raises questions. What did the low judge see that two others----one who I know very well as an extremely meticulous individual---did not see. Or why did he judge more harshly than two other experienced judges? Were the other two being negligent? The remarks left by this judge clearly showed he did not read my friend's remarks about what and why he did things. (FYI, my friend got a silver medal, and is quite satisfied with it, but we are both a bit disturbed by the judging numbers.) The IPMS system doesn't let this sort of thing happen. The judges have to reach a consensus and then explain it to a head judge. That just seems like a much better system. The judges learn from each other and the head judge. Model building is basically a creative activity and trying to reduce it to set of numbers is a poor idea. Just because a system is different, doesn't mean it is automatically better. Dak

I really enjoyed Chris' Editor's Brief in the latest Journal. I'm not saying our system is perfect or that I haven't seen the odd travesty of judgement. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, I will continue to complain the models were ill judged until I win.🤪 But most of the biggest critics I have met know little about judging and often can't remember any of the others entered if their favorites didn't win. They never took the time to carefully examine the other entries. Models often look very different when standing up three feet away and down on your knees at 12 inches. But what most don't grok is that we are always comparing Oranges and Tomatoes. Tiger tanks and Shermans. P-51s and Fw-190. Even when they are all Sherman tanks, they are M4A3, M4A2, or Fireflys. We never judge a category of King Cobra Jumbo Sherman tanks from the Meng kit. The judges continually have to juggle all these different kits and subjects choosing which are the best of the entries on that day. The critics also ignore that past performance is no guarantees of future performance. Too many think because their model won at other shows it is an obvious winner at the Nats. I remember one guy bragging about all his previous wins and then not placing at all at the National. As the IPMS judging has matured over the years, I have come to think of it as "free range judging". Not regimented as the numerical systems and more professional than simple popular votes. The system is well balanced and generally produces honest results. It is far better than other types as a contest. Dak

AFVCLUB kit with the Resicast Polsten 20mm added. Various figures. Yes, the civilians are being evacuating from an area flood when the dikes were bombed. Dak

Noel, you are absolutely correct. I admit I was somewhat imprecise and speaking broadly in earlier posts. The intent was not to discuss the rules but to discover some of those personal things that upset people. Still, some wanted to jump in and defend the current rules. I really don’t care about them as long as they are applied consistently. I just was wondering if there were others with what I would consider strange phobic subjects. Pornography of course, is subjective. Some consider classic nose art as pornographic. Otherwise, there doesn’t seem to be much that upsets folks. Dak

Blatant exposure of Genitalia and Gore on models I find in bad taste! Pornographic exposure of genitalia or any? Is a Greek Hoplite acceptable? Gil, I am am looking for consensus or agreement or even debate. I have been trying to simply get people to open up about what they don't like and why. More of a survey. It is an effort to communicate and understand what others think because it struck me as odd someone would be offended by something so trivial as a dead horse. It is a general modeling question because people often do models which conforms to the rules, but still upsets someone. Dak

Certainly, I want to hear what people say. The car is merely an example to support a previous remark. It illustrates what I mean by people seeing things from a different perspective. I’m amused by the reactions, not annoyed. I note all the comments are about the Trump sticker and not the other one. Lol. In the WWI section of our local museum there is a photo of a leg and boot hanging in a tree. Children see it all the time. At one point, for many years, the museum displayed a lamp from Hitler’s Munich apartment labeled (erroneously) as being made from human skin. The museum guides often pointed this out to visitors. Times change and and attitudes change. (The lamp and others memorabilia were stolen in a break in, btw) What do you think is gross, inappropriate for a model, or display at a contest. I don’t care what the rules say or whether you agree with them. This is about what individuals think and their personal “demons”. I would never have thought a teddy bear in a street fight scene would have upset someone more than a dead soldier, but apparently it did. There are always two sides to a coin. I am a veteran and a patriot. But to me playing the National anthem at sporting events cheapens it and should be banned. I dislike children thinking play ball or start your engines is part of the song. I accept other vets and patriots do not share this sentiment. But neither is right or wrong. The thinking makes it so. But so does context. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Dak

For example: I have been told by some that they find this diorama inappropriate for a contest because of the Trump bumper sticker. However, one said it was wrong to show my support for Trump and another felt it shows my contempt for the former President. Obviously, both these people are projecting their own feelings onto me. There was also one who was upset I put bumper stickers on a Ferrari and one that “really hated” it because I buried the pretty car in concrete. Another somehow decided I was being critical of union workers for marking the wet concrete incorrectly. To me, nothing is either right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so. Dak

Again, Noel, you missed the point. I did not intend this as a discussion of “what is appropriate” or what crosses the line, or why a line should be drawn. It is not a discussion of standards. What I am curious about was what specifically an individual finds upsetting or in bad taste. What YOU personally find disturbing not what you think might be upsetting to others. Too often people worry about what others “might” think. Dak

Noel has again missed the point of this string. I didn't want to question the rules, but find out what things actually upset people and why. It just seems some find the oddest (to me) to find as inappropriate or upsetting. I view model building as an art form. Some, even gross violence, is done better than others. But is a child's toy in a battle scene too much? Is a dead animal of any kind something children shouldn't see? Is a dead human, too much? People often see the same thing but see it differently and there is always someone who will find complaint. The question is where do we draw the line? Do we try to be everything to all people or do we treat our members like the "adults" they are? Dak

I agree, it makes a better story. Gore for the sake of gore....or nudity for the sake of nudity....is pointless. Dak

Why would an execution be any different than showing dead soldiers? I remember a beach scene a few years ago with plenty of dead Marines and Japanese. In one case some were being bbq'd with a flame thrower. One year I entered a Guillotine with blood one the blade. Dak

Again, we have gotten away from what I was looking for. What I wanted was to see what little things upset individuals, not argue back and forth on the current rules. Basically, I agree with Ralph, except that I would say those that insist something is inappropriate are also projecting their values onto others. But as of yet, no one has actually said what and why they find a particular thing disturbing, gross, or improper for a model subject for public display. Often we are blindsided by stuff we would never suspect is an issue. Dak

Yes, but what offends you? I agree one should always consider certain things might offend someone, but what what one person may see as insulting another sees as a memorial. Who gets to decide? Still, the question is what bothers you. If we don’t talk about it, then no one knows. For example, is a model of one of the 9/11 planes offensive? In New York City, probably. In Oklahoma, maybe not as much. Is a model of the Panzer 4 that fired the first shots at Malmedy offensive or just history. Some would see such models as tributes to the victims and others as a slap in the face. How is a Naked Bigfoot different that Michelangelo’s David, or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? Dak

That doesn’t really work for me because I see model work as art and free speech. There is nothing I would not let the kids see. But that is just me. I never thought the rule 5 was a good idea. I think it odd that SS, and other Nazi stuff is ok, but showing the train unloading at Dachau is not. That a naked figure is bad, but nude nose art is fine. IPMS is not the Cub Scouts. Most of the members are adults (And old adults, at that) and should be treated as adults. The main thing is was trying to get at was what specifically and why some find certain things upsetting. I am not trying to start and argument over the current rules. I don’t deliberately wish to offend people, but neither do I feel obligated bow to another’s arbitrary whim. Dak

I was talking with a friend about a vignette of some German soldiers about to butcher a dead horse when he said he didn't like the dead horse at all. He likes animals and didn't like to see such things. Another guy I know got upset if there were children's toys in a war scene. One thought some bones showing in an old graveyard of a horror model were totally inappropriate at a model contest. Personally, while I tend to avoid models showing the SS in heroic poses, I can't say they upset me. Swastikas certainly offend some, but I'm more offended by trying to edit them out of history. So, I'm curious what sort of things upset others? What do you think is "inappropriate" for a model contest and why? Dak

I'm glad you like it Mark, but I think the one George Seletas did as a NASA vehicle at the 2015 national was much better. That is the one which got me to buy one of the kits. Dak

For those interested, the vignette is done. Looks like a T-Rex dismembering a carcass. Dak

As you can see, it is almost done. Dak

Decals have been added. Both from the kit and other sources. Dak

The 1/20th Hasegawa Maschinen Krieger Camel converted to a towing and salvage vehicle. The sphere is Alclad clear blue over gold and the body is clear green over stainless steel. The waldo is scratchbuilt. Way more work to do. Dak

Thanks, Mark. Dak