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tkirk76
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well i have a suggestion have any of you thought about adding a tv/movie catergory to your auto catergories. a local club has done this here while not much of a turnout in the catergory it eliminates some of the "customs"

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No apologies are needed from anyone. There are two problems that need addressed. The first is to work with each other (IPMS and non-IPMS automotive types) to improve the automotive categories and judging at IPMS shows, finding common ground that can make both sides happier. The second problem is to take some actions that will (hopefully) alleviate the feeling that some car builders have about being second class IPMS citizens.

 

There are already people working to tweak the categories and the Judges Handbook, so it's up to the IPMS Eboard to USE these folks to make positive changes. Don also has a point in that the officers also have a role to play in changing the FACE of IPMS to present a more welcoming countenence to automotive types. This CAN be done! It has already happened to large extent with the armor and ship types. The idea that IPMS is an airplane society is completely passe, especially when you take a hard look at who has won the big awards at the IPMS Nats for the last 15yrs. The EBoard needs to take steps to emphasize the passion for modeling in IPMS, and that the dominance of military subjects has NOTHING to do WHAT IPMS is about.

 

This amounts to an ad campaign for the most part. Part of it can be space bought in automotive modeling mags, part of it could be reaching out to car building internet sites, and part of it can be helping our chapters filter these new ideas and changes into the local contests. No one needs to apologize, open old wounds, or bring up old issues. IPMSUSA needs to LEAD the way into a new era where automotive builders feel like IPMSUSA has something to offer for them. What does IPMSUSA get? Perhaps, just perhaps, the largest spurt of growth in many years!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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The last couple IPMS shows I went to I saw a lot of automotive models and they were at least equal in entries numbers to the armor and aircraft categories. I enjoy building cars but I mainly build aircraft so the last local show I went to I took the opportunity to talk with a few of the car guys and pick their collective brains for tips and techniques, after all I cut my teeth on hot rods and muscle cars so for me car modeling naturally translates easily and I did placed 2nd in a OOB auto category with my first auto entry a couple years earlier, well anyways after 30 minutes or more they made me feel like we had known one another for years, we were joking, laughing, swapping sea stories and then one fella asked me where's my build, I pointed over to the aircraft table, it was clear at that point the honeymoon was over they started rolling their eyes and clearing their throats then before I could say "the Me 262" they turned and walked away. I'm not sure what this 'flip-side' says about my encounter with only a half dozen dedicated model car guys,I did nothing wrong and I hold no grudges but I did get a few good tips plus leads on where to pick up cool aftermarket under the hood items.

 

Greg. :smiley20:

Edited by GregWise
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One thing that we don't talk of often is the simple human nature of congregating and socializing with people who have the same "likes" that we do. This is natural, and no one needs to feel bad about NOT being interested in an area of modeling that they just don't care about. Airplane builders don't need to feel bad about not caring about cars, and automotive builders don't have to be sorry if they don't give a flip for wingy thingies! It's only natural of course that neither one likes target builders, but then who does? :smiley2:

 

That being said, there is also the simple concept of "manners", and simple consideration for other people when you're in a social group. While you may not especially want to study or look at models that you don't care about, if you're interacting with someone who builds something different than you do, there's NO reason to make them feel like they're odd, unusual, or out of place there.

 

Greg's point that we ALL can learn from each other, no matter WHAT we build, is true! Although most of us tend to hang with our own groups, those occasions when we're in a mixed group should be looked upon as an opportunity to learn something we might not otherwise be exposed to. Most of the BEST builders I know DO build more than one genre, and one of their advantages seems to be able to take skills unique to one genre and use them in another one.

 

One thing that car builders may need to get used to with IPMS is they they WILL have to deal with other genre types. It's something they do NOT have to do at car shows, and will require an attitude adjustment for some. I don't think it's anything they can't easily handle, I just think it's something they haven't had to deal with on a regular basis.

 

The bottom line is that we ALL care about our models in the same manner. They hold a special meaning to EACH of us, regardless of whatever genre they may fit into. THAT is what we should remember when interacting with other model builders at meetings and shows. If we do this, it doesn't matter what anyone builds....we're all just model builders who enjoy the same hobby in different ways!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Edited by ghodges
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Gil, I completely agree, we all have our likes and dislikes when it comes to model building. Over the years I’ve build just about any and every thing when it comes to models. I’ve built Ships, Armor, Aircraft, Railroads and obviously Car and Trucks. About the only thing I’ve never taken on are figures. All these genres have their own techniques that can either directly or with some modification can be used in building in another genre. None of us have all the answers when it comes to building contest winning models. I see how Armor is weathered and know that same technique can transfer to any other genre. Every one of us has some special little thing we do when it comes to building that is we passed it along to someone else we could help them become better modelers.

 

I have spent several years as a technical instructor; it’s the best job in the world. When I’m teaching a class I get to impart knowledge to fellow technicians and by passing on that knowledge I get the chance to make them better at what they do. If WE could take on the same attitude when it comes to our model building we’d all find ourselves helping other’s become better builders. There is no better way to prefect your craft then to teach it to someone else. Just because a seminar is being presented by an Armor/Aircraft/Ship builder and the subject peaks your interest then you should attend. Same thing applies to seminars presented by a Automotive builder, if you feel the technique applies, by all means attend, find out how that technique may be able to apply to your genre.

 

I also agree there is no excuse for bad manners. To take someone into your ‘Clic’ because you believe they build in the same genre that you do and when you discover that they don’t and turn around and walk away is just that bad manners. I guess I’m a bit different than most, very seldom am I ever afraid o ask questions or approach a group of builders and introduce myself and get to know them and what they build. I ask who the Head Judge is, who the President of the Chapter is and go and introduce myself. If we as model car builders present ourselves in a positive light and se where we can help instead of sitting back and pointing out the negative we might find we’re accepted into the fold.

 

Trying to blend IPMS and Non-IPMS Model Car Contest ideas into one single process may present more bumps then some would imagine. When we run a Non-IPMS event seldom do we publish a list of categories, more often than not we have no idea what is going to be entered in the contest. We’ve had years where there have been no entries in certain categories; if we had published a list it would have meant unused awards. We use a high quality label maker to personalize our awards to the class and winner. All simple steps to maximize the use of resources and insure continued success of the events.

 

If someone tells us that there is no way to build a bridge and bring more Model Car Builders into IPMS than I will tell you they are someone who is not willing to make the effort and are part of the problem and not part of the solution. We can continue to beat this horse or we can make the effort required to make the changes necessary to get past the hard feelings and realize this is a hobby and it’s suppose to be fun.

 

Dave

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Ok, let's take it as given that the EBoard and NCC will make changes to the contest categories, rules, and / or judging handbook to encourage more interest in IPMS/USA for auto modelers. What else can 'we' do? And by 'we' I see three basic groups:

  1. The EBoard.
  2. Local IPMS/USA Chapters.
  3. IPMS/USA members.

I think that the EBoard may not be able to directly do much, but could promote the idea of an Outreach program by the local Chapters and IPMS members to auto modeler clubs in their respective areas. It would take some organization and effort to do this. For example, do we have an idea of how many auto modeler clubs there are and where they are located? Do we have chapter and members who would be willing to participate?

 

 

The other issue which concerns me is that auto modeler clubs as a group are intentionally not organized, in the sense that armor modelers have APMS for example, so they may not share the same concerns, issues, etc. with IPMS that have caused the rift.

 

Anyway... just my $0.02...

 

Eric

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Ok, let's take it as given that the EBoard and NCC will make changes to the contest categories, rules, and / or judging handbook to encourage more interest in IPMS/USA for auto modelers. What else can 'we' do?

 

I think we have to start with a more fundamental question: what outcome are we trying to achieve? It is unrealistic to assume IPMS will convince auto modelers to fold up their clubs and join their local IPMS chapter. I suspect there would be a lot of support for creating a parallel set of chapters: one auto-only, one everything else, but I think this would be an incredibly bad idea as it would alienate all of the existing IPMS members who have tried for years to make IPMS more welcoming and attractive to auto-modelers; I don't think IPMS should go out of its way to make more enemies.

 

Probably the best situation we can hope for would be a more respectful relationship between the two camps. Auto modelers should feel welcome at IPMS shows and see them as high-quality events. Auto modelers should feel welcome at IPMS chapter meetings and believe they can learn something by becoming a member. Auto modelers should see the IPMS Nats as a prestigious event where the "best-of-the-best" auto-modelers can be found. Hopefully this will result in more auto-modelers supporting IPMS events at all levels and even become members.

 

Here are a few specific steps in this direction:

  • Better coordination of contests between traditional IPMS chapter events and auto-only events, even if the auto-only events are non-IPMS. Imagine we opened up the IPMS event calendar to non-IPMS events and made it the ultimate listing of model shows. This would let non-IPMS events avoid conflicts with IPMS events (and vice-versa).
  • More auto-only clubs become IPMS chapters. I think this is already happening purely for insurance purposes, but it would be nice if there were less mercenary incentives. Might mean relaxing restrictions on how close chapters can be, but I think there are already lots of exceptions.
  • Make IPMS contests at all levels more attractive to auto-modelers. A couple of things to do:
    • Tweak the categories and judging guidelines as needed, and make them readily available to both IPMS chapters and to auto-modelers. Include detailed instructions to help aircraft/armor/etc modelers know what to do if pressed into service as automotive judges.
    • Compile marketing info to help traditional IPMS chapters promote their events to auto-modelers: suggested magazines and websites to advertise in, mailing lists of auto-only clubs, auto-modelers willing to do seminars, etc.

    [*]Make IPMS Nationals more prestigious to auto-modelers.

    • Coverage in auto-modeling magazines.
    • Big-name seminars.
    • Basic marketing: magazine articles, endorsements, ads, etc.

    [*]Fuzzier goal: show auto-modelers that IPMS membership can help you build better auto-motive models. Maybe form a team of "IPMS Ambassadors" who are a) auto-modelers, B) consistent contest winners, c) willing to wear a snazzy IPMS USA Auto Modeler shirt to various auto shows and evangelize the organization.

Don

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More auto-only clubs become IPMS chapters. I think this is already happening purely for insurance purposes, but it would be nice if there were less mercenary incentives. Might mean relaxing restrictions on how close chapters can be, but I think there are already lots of exceptions.

 

I didn't realize that there ever was a restriction. 4 years ago with the San Diego Model Car Club became an IPMS club, to my knowledge, that subject never came up. The two clubs meet about 200 yards and 10 days apart. At the Car Club the original intention was strictly mercenary. We did it for the insurance, but since then we have held joint events with the IPMS San Diego quite sucessfully and I have several people at the other chapter who's company I enjoy. I have been to a couple of their meetings and unfortunatly I don't really enjoy building military subjects enough to make it an ongoing thing. Nothing personal but they just build and discuss models differantly. Great guys, differant interests.

 

As to the mercenary end of it, it is a start. Nothing wrong with that. To my knowledge, there are no rules at IPMS that require a club to conduct business or hold their meetings in any particular way. The only requirement that I am aware of is to have at least 5 IPMS members in the club. That is all that appears to be needed for a charter.

 

So, if more car only clubs joined, there doesn't seem to be any conflict. I would just be a good thing to sign them up if it can be done. The extra membership would be a good thing for National and eventually, each club finds a reason for belonging beyond insurance. Personally, I really thing the journal is worth the cost of membership alone.

 

Fuzzier goal: show auto-modelers that IPMS membership can help you build better auto-motive models. Maybe form a team of "IPMS Ambassadors" who are a) auto-modelers, B) consistent contest winners, c) willing to wear a snazzy IPMS USA Auto Modeler shirt to various auto shows and evangelize the organization.

 

Sorry, but I have got to disagree with this one! IPMS does not have any corner of model building skills. The car guys are doing just fine on their own. There is a cadre of auto builders who would hold their own in any IPMS contest including Nationals and it has nothing to do with IPMS membership. If you were to show up with that attitude at a car club, you would not be welcomed for very long. Car builders who build at nationally competive levels have a whole set of skills that most military builders never aquire. Witness the perfect gloss paint job and reproduction of chrome just to mention two. Bluntly, the IPMS "ego" is probably the one thing that causes more friction that any thing else. That needs to be left at the door.

Edited by PeteJ
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More auto-only clubs become IPMS chapters. I think this is already happening purely for insurance purposes, but it would be nice if there were less mercenary incentives. Might mean relaxing restrictions on how close chapters can be, but I think there are already lots of exceptions.

 

I didn't realize that there ever was a restriction. 4 years ago with the San Diego Model Car Club became an IPMS club, to my knowledge, that subject never came up.

 

Pete,

 

There is an article in the bylaws that reads:

 

Chapter Charters may be granted to areas, not individuals, and will be as allowed by the Director of Local Chapters with the approval of the Executive Board. Chapter names will be approved by the Director of Local Chapters.

 

I'm not sure exactly how this is interpreted; I think the idea is that the Pittsburgh chapter doesn't belong to the president of the club or whoever filed the paperwork - if they leave the chapter the charter doesn't go with them. I've heard rumors that IPMS doesn't like to grant two chapters in the same place because a chapter had some sort of civil war and split in two, but there are certainly lots of examples of chapters being located a few miles apart.

 

 

Fuzzier goal: show auto-modelers that IPMS membership can help you build better auto-motive models. Maybe form a team of "IPMS Ambassadors" who are a) auto-modelers, B) consistent contest winners, c) willing to wear a snazzy IPMS USA Auto Modeler shirt to various auto shows and evangelize the organization.

 

Sorry, but I have got to disagree with this one! IPMS does not have any corner of model building skills. The car guys are doing just fine on their own. There is a cadre of auto builders who would hold their own in any IPMS contest including Nationals and it has nothing to do with IPMS membership. If you were to show up with that attitude at a car club, you would not be welcomed for very long. Car builders who build at nationally competive levels have a whole set of skills that most military builders never aquire. Witness the perfect gloss paint job and reproduction of chrome just to mention two. Bluntly, the IPMS "ego" is probably the one thing that causes more friction that any thing else. That needs to be left at the door.

 

Pete, I don't think I explained myself well - although I think your reaction to the "IPMS ego" demonstrates the fact that there are still lots of hard feelings. What I was getting at is that a lot of auto-modelers never knowingly see what IPMS modelers are doing. IPMS members who enter car-only shows tend to keep a low profile because there is a real backlash against IPMS members. The many auto-modelers who never attend an IPMS event never see what is going on in the aircraft, armor, sci-fi etc. sides of the hobby.

 

I wasn't suggesting that IPMS members go into a car-only contest like the "pros from dover" and tell car-modelers what to do and expect to win all the awards, but rather that somehow IPMS needs to have a visible presence at car-only shows so that car-modelers know you can be a car-modeler in IPMS and maybe there are some things to learn from the other guys. But frankly I'm not sure anyone wants the stress of doing that!

 

Don

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then explain why here in Spartanburg S.C. we have 3 IPMS chapters and 1 car club

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What a surprise...this is still going on....I'm honestly beginning to think it will never end.

 

Automotive modelers want what every other builders of all genres want....equality and fairness. That's it, nothing more.

 

I also think the "bad blood" talked about here and in other threads is alive and well, and perpetuated by a small minority on BOTH sides of the fence., that DON'T want things to change.

 

"Actions speak louder", so IPMS, if they are really serious about pulling in Automotive builders, need to add more Cats and KEEP THEM AROUND for a few years.

 

IPMS does not need more Automotive clubs....we need more Model clubs period.

 

The club I am honored to be a member of is one of the oldest IPMS chapters (40+ Years) and our event is still going strong for over 35 years. I've only been in since 1990, but I was welcomed with open arms even though(at the time) I was strictly a car model builder, and there never was a hint of "we're better", so to me, not all IPMS members are bad...not even close.

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I think what most people suffer from is the illusion of central position. For those who haven't been through Psyc 101 that is the belief that they are normal or "in the middle" and everyone else shares their experiences and beliefs. As the therory suggests, it is an illusion. No two members, no two clubs, no two events are the same. In general people tend to congregate with people who share similar interests. In spite of the simiarities between general military subjects and automotive subjects, they have inherant differances that separate them. Having recognized this, I believe that if you have an auto club locally that isn't a an IPMS club, suggest that they join and find their own benifits. Trying to fit them into some kind of predetermined "club" format is not desirable for either IPMS or the club. Just let them do their thing and let it go at that as far as membership.

 

I have already stated my beliefs on changing catagories and judging criteria and it would be a great step forward in showing that IPMS National does understand the differances. That would perhaps improve relationships but that is another subject.

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I dIdn't see anything too toxic, just "sticker shock" and opinions that are uninformed due to not being IPMS members. This is EXACTLY the same attitude and opinions expressed by ANY modelers, whatever they may build, who have no experience in IPMS and have no idea that the IPMS Nats is MUCH more than a local model contest.

 

I was also glad to see that there was just as much support and interest on the page by those planning to attend as those who're having second thoughts due to the above average expense. I expect the car clubs here in FLA to put some seriously nice work on the tables. That's what they do at our regular shows all the time!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Edited by ghodges
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  • 1 month later...

Having read most (but not all) of the comments on this topic I felt moved to add my two bits.

Almost everyone who commented has a valid point within their discussion.

Having instituted a "model car" column in the old IPMS "Update" in the '80's and having served as the national head automotive judge for several years, I think I can add some insight.

First of all, several "posters" are correct in saying that there should be a finer break down in the auto categories that they are just too generic. I do NOT think that the NCC is closed to ideas for more classes within the automotive categories, it's just that someone needs to propose them.

Second, there does exist a crying need for more auto class judges. At a recent national convention

there were 105 aircraft judges and 3 automotive category judges!! We did finally recruit some more

bodies but only with some difficulty. Three to five people just cannot judge a category with over a hundred entries and be as thorough as they should be. I got so frustrated with the hours and hours

of pouring over the entries that last year I volunteered to judge the miscellaneous category just to be able to finish in a respectable time frame...one year it was almost 3:00 a.m. before the auto classes were finished....principlely due to the few judges that were there to evaluate the models on the tables. So, we who do build cars need to recruit more warm bodies who are knowledgeable in the category and get some discussion going dealing with adding new categories.

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Good points Cliff, but you raise a double edged sword here. If the automotive types don't volunteer to help judge at the Nats, the judging suffers, and our reputation with it. And, if you recruit other national judges to help ease the load on the automotive volunteers, then we're criticized for letting wingers and treadheads judge the autos and our rep suffers anyway.

 

There IS a solution to this, but it requires leadership from the Head Judges: come to the show with the judging teams already made up and assigned to categories! This USED to be done (at least for the aircraft teams), and it allowed you to keep an eye on the categories you were assigned while they built up on the 2 days leading up to judging.YES, this is pre-judging (without picking anything up, by the way)! But, it's NOT final judging! It merely allows you to be "on the ball" when you do begin officially judging a category. 3 judges can make a LOT of progress very quickly IF they don't have to start at the beginning on Friday night, and can use the info they've garnered the previous 2 days to know what is truly in contention and what needs to fall by the wayside. Whether you see that difference in a model on Thursday or Friday night doesn't matter, as long as you make your decision based on the basics!

 

Perhaps we'll see and hear some progress from the NCC Orlando. We can only hope!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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You're right Gil, I too would like to see the judging teams set up previous to the convention. On the national registration forms it ask if you are a national judge. It would be so easy to add a question of what category (ies) and although it would pose more work for the registrar they could send a list to the various head judges and since most head judges have worked with many of the individuals they in turn could set up judging teams.....lots of work and time , but possible. As usual a judge could opt out of a category in which he or she had an entry and go to another team while that class was being judged...we see this all the time so no big controversy there. I personally know of several individuals who regularly compete (and win) at nationals in the automotive categories who just "refuse" to judge. I have in the past asked these folks to help out and they have just flat said, "No way, I'm going to do thus and such on Friday evening or just said they're not interested"...so, what to do? Volunteers are volunteers you can't force them. On the point of recruiting armor and/or aircraft judges in my experience they have been very competent in judging the "basics" which is always a major point. As to "authenticity" of a particular model sometimes they can be a little leary of weighing in on that area but all in all they have always seemed to me at least very competent as are most of the experienced judges. Now I need to go back and read more of the earlier contributions to this topic and see if a really comprehensive group of suggestions and ideas can be compiled for approaching the NCC.

Edited by arkie
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The Nats registrar needent be involved at all. All of the Head Judges have email addies. Most all of the judges do. All they need to do is come HERE in June and start a topic asking their judges to email them if they'll be able to judge, and what categories they'd "like" or "be ineligible for". That gives them 60 days to communicate, track judges, compile a list of thaose available, and create teams. It also allows time to RECRUIT if volunteers are proving to be rare.

 

Sure, it's a little work, but it actually relieves a task that would have to be done at the show, giving that judge more free time at the show. Seems like a win-win to me. Unfortunately it seems that no one wants to do that. And, IF there's an NCC policy against it, I'm not aware of it, and would like an explanation as to why! Cheers!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Gentlemen

 

I have read this thread with great interest as a car modeler, Nationals judge and someone that has been involved the running of 3 national conventions, and various other regional and local shows. So for a little background for those that do not know me or are familiar with my work. I have been building models since around 1965and I build the three "A's" Aircraft, Armor and Automotive. Over the years I have strengthened my skills by not concentrating on one genre. I apply basic construction rules to everything I build. I know many a modeler has asked me how I can build anything I want and they generally do well at IPMS. NNL and car shows. I tell them I do not get locked into one mindset when approaching a project. I feel that this is the case with most car modelers when attending an IPMS show.

 

When we did the '2008 show I approached the local car club (Tidewater Automotive Modelers Society or TAMS) and asked for their input as to what they would like to see as far as categories. We brainstormed and wound up using the categories that they used with their show along with some of the categories from the area NNL shows. Things like "a NASCAR, Heavy and light Commercial, Curbside/Slam to name a few. We had an overwhelming response with the number of cars that were entered at the show.

 

I also understand that the cost (for a national) show was exorbitant for most to attend. Most of the car modelers I know do not have a large budget for their hobby so joining IPMS (if just for the chance to be allowed to enter) and paying for the show itself is cost prohibitive for most.

 

As for Judging, I have been grabbed at the door of many a show to be either a head judge or category judge. And most know I am willing to judge any subject. And yes I have been to a few shows where we only had three to five car judges and that made thing a bit tiring. Most of the apathy stems from the fact that most modelers would rather judge their buddies models lest he have his buddy judge his. So most will just opt out. Granted Car modelers are a different breed when it comes to build quality. Most will build 15-20 cars a year and be happy that they increased the finished model count in their collection. I understand that as most of us have more unbuilt models than built up stuff! I have judged a show or two where it came down to who finished the underside of the hood. We walked down the line and flipped the hood of every model on the table. Only 1 in 20 probably removed the punch out marks under the hood or even attempted to paint it!

 

I plan on working with National and our planning committee for the 2014 show to make the car categories more palatable for us car modelers. I think if we pattern it close to NNL categories it would be more workable. I know I am rambling a bit but I wholeheartedly agree with what is being lined out in this thread and would like to see things changed for the better.

Edited by SABregi
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You know a smart guy would just walk away from the keyboard now....but as all of us know, I am not very smart.

 

Food for thought......

 

Why is there no National organization for Car/Automotive modelers? There was the Model Car Club of America (MCCA) in the 1980s (I was a member), Automotive Modelers Society (AMS) in the late 1980s and the 1990s (I was a National Eboard member of them). Both of these are long gone. I wonder why.........(I actually know but will keep that to myself). Interesting that IPMS has outlasted both of them.

 

Another odd thought.....we have had IPMS USA members writing for Scale Auto Enthusiast (now called Scale Auto). We have had car modelers who win at our IPMS nationals also winning at places like GSL, and various NNL events. We have had nationally known car modelers become IPMS USA judges.

 

Personal history...in the early 1990s, a couple of friends and I put on a local model show. I had a guy come up and want a category for his 57 chevys. I told him that if he would 1) judge an automotive category and 2) sponser the category-- I would be happy to. He said "HECK NO! I'm not going to pay for trophys. I don't want to get involved with that, I came here to have fun...not to work" In my years, I found this the norm, not the exception.

 

Also at more that one local car modeling show I volunteered to judge, or used to anyway. At more that one (actually many) I had fellow judges say (paraphrasing here) I know this guy, he does good work. He put $100 of aftermarket on it and look at that shine. I then pointed out that the car did not have all 4 wheels touching the ground and there was glue globs on the distributer and around the windshield as well as ejector pin marks everywhere. Undaunted they awarded the guy an award.

 

So....how do we bridge this gap? I am a car guy and tried to---I am not sure it can be.

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Scott Bregi has it spot-on. As far as I'm concerned (and I do build model cars, too), if you want to compete in IPMS you need to follow the IPMS rules first and foremost. Build basics rule--mold marks removed or filled, seams eliminated, alignment correct, quality of the finish etc. THEN you start looking at the quality of the rest of the build--how well did the builder incorporate any resin, photo etch, major mods, or other add-ons...it shouldn't matter if the guy spent a dollar or a thousand on aftermarket--if he can't add them on to the model without giant glue boogers showing, it counts against the build...

 

It ain't rocket science. A good build is a good build, I don't care whether it is a plane, ship, car, tank, or whatever--the basics are, well, the basic ingredient to a good build. It is about the craftsmanship first, then the artistry...

 

If you can't live with the IPMS rules, lobby to have them changed (good luck with that, by the way) or start your own organization. Some folks in South Carolina did just that when they founded the SCMA...it is largely an automotive group, and their judging criteria is geared more towards "what looks best". I've seen them in action many times--I don't always agree with that style of judging, but it works for them. And who am I to say which way is the "right" way?

 

Ralph

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So....how do we bridge this gap? I am a car guy and tried to---I am not sure it can be.

 

Hi Mike,

 

I think this came up before: what does it mean to "bridge the gap"? I don't think we'll ever get all auto modelers to join IPMS, anymore than we get all the aircraft or armor or SciFi modelers to join. But I do think there are a lot of automotive modelers who would want to join IPMS if they knew what it was truly about (as opposed to the perceptions of IPMS born of long-ago hard feelings). I think what gets people interested in IPMS is the perception that it helps you build better models - both through learning from others and from the focus on contests; what keeps people here are socializing with others who understand their styrene addiction. Contests and shows are our big chance to deliver this message, but for car modelers you first have to get them in the door.

  • The first step is just making car modelers feel welcome. Have categories and rules and theme-awards that make sense to them, and explain the rules and judging philosophy on the show website. Have competent and knowledgeable automotive judges to lead the judging teams.
  • The next step is to show the value of IPMS membership in building quality models. At Regionals/Nationals try to have a big-name automotive modeler give a seminar. If there are at least a few really good car models at a contest, the event will develop a reputation as a serious automotive show and attract more quality work. We need to solve the chicken-or-egg issue, probably by wooing a few top-name auto modelers from within our ranks.
  • Finally is just old-fashioned advertising; we need to promote the auto-specific parts of IPMS to auto modelers. Most car modelers aren't reading the Journal, so event info has to go on the web. Individual chapters need to send show announcements directly to auto-only clubs. We need to figure out how to get the Best Automotive winner at the Nats on the cover of Scale Auto.

My opinions...

Don

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  • 3 months later...

This thread has made very interesting reading from a UK car modeller's viewpoint and a long standing member of IPMS UK since 1974. To a certain extent within IPMS over the years Automotive modelling has always been a bit overwhelmed by the aircraft modelling fraternity. This does not denigrate Auto Modellers within the IPMS, it just reflects that the majority interest in the hobby is, and always will be aircraft in a general modelling society, followed by AFV's.

We are getting more and more car, truck and motorcycle models entered each year into our Scale Modelworld Show, and this can only be a good thing. A non military car or truck model has never won it yet, but for the first time ever a science fiction model won best of show, so things are changing!

Car modelling generally is much bigger in the States than it is here judging by the number of specialist regional car model club competitions you have throughout the year, and is well supported.

Earlier posts discussed what constitutes a good model and some judging guidelines discussed. Having judged at Scale Modelworld myself on a few occassions the first thing that puts models straight out of contention is lack of some of the fundamentals of basic good building. ie Sink marks not filled in, mould seams not eradicated, orange peel paint, finger marks in the paint, if the car fails to sit square on all four wheels, chassis out of alignment....the list goes on. Putting a model in be judged at that level when some of the basics are a bit lacking will only lead to disappointment?

I don't know what IPMS USA does but at Scale Modelworld the best model from each of the categories..Aircraft Ship. AFV, Automotive,Science Fiction etc are placed on a separate table and then judged again for Best of Show so a model from each category get a fair crack of the whip.

This year a Steampunk Monocycle took best of show from the Sci Fi and Fantasy section... Brilliant model.. Look on the Scale Modelworld website.

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  • 4 years later...

On judging: I always am amazed when someone enters a contest and feels they were "cheated" by the judges and the judging was "wrong" or "suspect". As for the particulars, the comment "These guys (car modelers, per the original poster's intent) don't focus on that sure they will go all out on a beautiful paint job, but will leave details like mold pins under the hood, or leave seams on the transmission etc. , now how do you resolve this with IPMS and car guys." How do you resolve it? Read the IPMS Competition Handbook. Under "Automotive", the number one phase is "Basic Construction". And I quote:

 

Automotive

Basic Construction

1. Flash, sink marks, mold marks, ejector-pin marks,and similar molding flaws eliminated.

2. Seams filled if not found on the actual vehicle. (This is especially important on the car’s body. Rubberized kit tires usually also have a mold seam that must be removed.)

3. Contour errors corrected.

4. Gaps between body and chassis eliminated as applicable.

5. Detailing removed while accomplishing the above steps restored to a level consistent with the rest of the model.

6. Alignment:

A. Where applicable, external items (e.g., mirrors, exhaust pipes) aligned symmetrically.

B. Internal items (e.g., seats, some engine/drive components) aligned properly.

C. Wheels: All wheels touching the ground and aligned properly when viewed from front or rear of the vehicle. If turned, front wheels should be aligned in the same direction.

7. Windshields and other clear areas:

A. Clear and free of crazing caused by adhesives or finishing coats.

B. Gaps between windshield, windows, or other clear parts eliminated where applicable.

C. All clear areas scratch-, blemish-, and paint-free.

 

Notice number 1. Mold marks, mold flaws, etc. need to be eliminated. There it is in black and white. And it follows the basic IPMS premise on judging--Basic Construction always comes first. That's where a great many models miss the cut--the basics of good model construction are not followed. Period.

 

What amazes me is that some modelers won't read the rules before they enter a particular contest. It usually comes down to the fact that they didn't win (or, according to them, they got screwed out of a trophy) because they either didn't read or decided to disregard the rules of the road. You wanna play in the IPMS ballpark? You need to do so by the IPMS rules. No more, no less. Simple, really...nothing to "resolve".

 

I've heard the car modeler's gripes for years--and I do build car models myself, so I'm not saying this as a car-basher. The answer has always been what I just posted--read, understand, and follow the rules of the contest you are entering. Similar gripes are heard from a modeler who builds OOB, then enters an IPMS contest and doesn't provide the instruction sheet. Their model is rightfully DQ'd from OOB and moved to the open category, but according to the modeler somehow that's a failing on the part of IPMS--when in reality it is that the modeler has not followed the rules spelled out Competition Handbook.

 

I wouldn't expect to win at a SCMA event if I didn't read, understand, and follow their rules. Same for AMPS, or any of the other competitive modeling groups. And that's as it should be, since each group has a different take on how models "should" be built.

 

FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.

 

Ralph

 

Bingo.

I convinced a friend and former co-worker to enter some models in our recent IPMS show. The guy is a car detailer for an exotic car outlet. He is a detail {neatness} freak who builds super clean work. He ended up winning 3rd place in a highly competitive Street Automotive class and first in Miscellaneous class on the merits of his work. He was shocked when he won, but I wasn't.

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