Jump to content
tkirk76

Model car builders

Recommended Posts

Hey folks

Im a Automotive Hudge and Enthuisist. Ive been involved in IPMS since 1989 and the car guys are still getting a short of the stick especially at the Nats. We dont have enough Jugdes and catigories. Every time I bring it its always numbers!! Weel If" you build it thell come" You would think that since there are more car model sold in the USA we woild have sense to open this part of the model communty. IPMS has for years ( its betternow) kept the car guys out of our chapters and certain have made them feel less than welcomed at the Nats.

"but thet are car clubs forming all over the US" according to the ebourd. I grew up in the deep south so why dont we go back to segredated Schools!! that the logic of that stement All nodel builders should be welcomed and have a place at the table/

Oh yeah did any notice we dont have a meeting with the NCC at the nats!? Why Why are not allowed to discuss and open up a debate on catigories and rules for the Nats? We cant get replies to questions!!! We have business meeting why not a contest meeting.

Well that my eake

Tim Kirkland 29144

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tim,

 

There is certainly some truth to what you say, but there are some signs of progress. Dick Christ - is the new IPMS president - is a car modeler and former head auto judge at the Nats. Mike Hanson, who seems to be running a big part of the Orlando Nats also seems to be at least a partial car guy.

 

A few months ago we had a big discussion here about how to improve auto categories, and I wrote up a suggestion for some changes and tweaks to the categories and sent it to Dick Christ (hopefully the car modeling judges will at least talk about those suggestions at Orlando). These are small steps, but again at least they're going in the right direction.

 

I'm surprised if there won't be a judges meeting at the Nats; is that confirmed? I just looked at the Nationals website and there doesn't seem to be any calendar of events listed yet. If you're going to be there, I'd bet you could find the Head Auto Judge (does anyone know who replaced Dick Christ?) and ask him to set up a meeting, even if informally in the bar or something. I'd certainly be up for attending.

 

By the way, if you're interested in what was said the last time we had this discussion, you should be able to find it here and here (at least if I figured out how to insert links correctly).

 

Don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theoretically, I'm also a car builder, assuming I ever get around to building models instead of web sites.

 

One way car modelers could make a big difference would be to review some car kits.. If I recall correctly we were a bit short of reviewers in that category.. For more info, see: http://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/welcome-ipmsusa-product-reviews-site

 

Eric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I build (collect?) a bit of everything (I guess that makes me a 'generic' modeler), but I have built more cars than other subjects so far. The threads referenced above e.g. new categories are a great start, and I do wish I could implement them at Disney. But there's a process to be followed; meantime bring your models to Lake Buena Vista and lets fill the tables up with car models!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I'm not a car builder (except about once a year), I initiated the discussion on enlarging/changing the Nats Automotive categories, so I have a small stake in this discussion.

 

There WILL be a judges meeting in Orlando, but that is NOT the place for this discussion. It will be held an hour before judging starts and all attention must be focussed on the job at hand. The OJT meeting held earlier is also NOT the place to try to bring it up either, for obvious reasons.

 

Tim is right in that there is not (and never has been) a meeting between the judges and the NCC, the group that actually controls the parameters that we operate under (categories, rules, etc.). It's not that such a meeting can't be set up, it's just not on the schedule at this time (to my knowledge).

 

Many years ago a few of us who were open to discussing and trying Open Judging (GSB) arranged such a meeting with most (if not all) of the NCC at the Phoenix Nats. My suggestion is that those of you who HAVE concrete suggestions about adjusting the Car cats for the Nats work together to have such a meeting with the NCC; if not in Orlando, then in Colorado. BUT, BE PREPARED! The NCC will look at this as an intrusion into THEIR territory; and will defend the staus quo, if only to preserve their power. They have NO vested interest in seeing changes to the Nats that they didn't initiate, or "approve".

 

Best of luck!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it a problem about there not being enough automotive categories or not enough automotive entries? Like Gil & Mike, I build many different types of models with cars being an occasional one (my very first 1st place model was a VW Beetle).

 

Is the problem one in which there are so many entries, but only a limited number of categories (i.e. either Car or Truck) so each category has hundreds of entries?

 

Or is the problem one in which there are a number of categories but very few entries in each category (i.e. only three or fewer entries per category so everyone gets a trophy

)?

 

I often see car model builders complain about IPMS ignoring them, but I don't think the actual complaint has ever been articulated to me.

 

As far as judging goes, doesn't that have to come from within? I mean, yes I build the occasional car kit, but I wouldn't want the responsibility of being a car category judge. I'm just not skilled enough in that area to be comfortable judging another modeler's work like I am in armor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tim,

 

I find your comment about not having enough judges to be an interesting one. Where do you think those judges come from? Where do you think all the aircraft and armor judges come from? Quite simply, they come from the modelers themselves. If there aren't enough car judges at the IPMS Nationals, the car guys have to look from within, and more of them need to step up and start judging.

 

I will say that my experience with contests in the South is that while there are car modelers entering the show, there generally are very few willing to judge. This year at our show in Chattanooga we really had a hard time. We had a good number of automotive entries, but despite repeated pleas over the PA, and virtually begging among the tables, we just couldn't find more than 3 guys willing to judge. Honestly, I really feel like the car guys got the short end of that stick, but I have a hard time feeling guilty about it. I even got an email after the show from a guy who had come a pretty good distance for the show. While he did have a couple valid comments about a couple of the aspects of our judging system not being applied correctly by the car judges, he also kind of stunned me. He admitted that he knew we were short of judges, and were making repeated announcements to that effect, and then added that he was head judge for his club's show. It honestly took me a day to calm down enough to reply. I'm not quite sure how a guy with that judging experience hears all the pleas we made for car judges, sits on the sidelines, and then steps up to complain about the car judging.

 

I won't argue that the car guys don't seem to be well understood by IPMS. I don't build cars, so I can't really comment on the category structure, but I can say that our club is open to anyone who builds models and that whenever we run across a guy who builds cars we almost beg them to join us. So far it really hasn't happened. But they are more than welcome.

 

As for the judging and judges part, I have a hard time sympathizing. My experience is that the car modelers seem very reluctant to step up and judge. I'm sure others have different experiences, but not me.

 

And if you're interested, our show next year will be Jan 11-12 at the Chattanooga Convention Center...right across the hall from the World of Wheels show. No promises, but we're going to try to get our show entrants discounted admission to the WoW show. Come on and visit Chattanooga and get a car modeling and car show experience in one weekend!

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I think that re-examining the Nats when it comes to the Automotive category is a good idea, I'm not really sure that's going to have a substantial impact.

 

Having visited several non-IPMS auto model clubs, I think the local & regional contests have more influence on how a car club feels about IPMS. I've heard comments about how "we don't want this to become an IPMS contest" when any changes were suggested to a NNL like show...

 

Eric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I often see car model builders complain about IPMS ignoring them, but I don't think the actual complaint has ever been articulated to me.

 

The main complaint is that some of the car categories at the Nats are different than you would find at a model car contest. Mostly they're more generic - IPMS has "Competition Open Wheel" when that might be broken out into 2 or 3 more specific categories (F1, Sprint Car) at a car-only contest. This mostly reflects the reality of IPMS shows having fewer car models, so they can't be sure there are gong to be 10-15 F1 cars show up to fill out a full category; the IPMS-way is to have a more generic category and split it if necessary based on what subject matter actually shows up.

 

There are a few other common complaints wrt IPMS judging, the main one being a perceived IPMS bias towards models being true replicas, whereas many model cars are what would be considered "hypothetical" in other categories - that is the modeler builds a model of a real car that doesn't exist but could. Because of this car modelers (at least in some categories) expect judging to reflect some of the creativity that went into the model as well as basic construction.

 

Often when there is some questionable outcome in the car categories, car modelers will jump to the conclusion that "since IPMS has no car modelers" they must recycle armor and aircraft modelers who don't understand automotive subjects to judge the cars.

 

Its an uphill battle...

Don

Edited by Schmitz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Don mentions, it's more a matter of perception than reality.Different people have different ideas as to what it would take to satisfy more automotive builders. My idea was simply to do SOMETHING to show that IPMSUSA is trying to reach out and CHANGE that perception. The discussion that was here on line had several ideas much better than my initial suggestion of simply enlarging the categories. I hope those people will pursue trying to make changes that might help IPMSUSA be held in higher esteem by the car modeling public at large.

 

One thing we know for sure....if we don't try to make some changes, there's NO reason to think that automotive builders will see more value in IPMS!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The judging thing; car modelers who stand idly by while calls go out for judges have no one to blame but themselves if they are unhappy with the judging at that show. They will end up with recycled armor model judges like me trying to do their best to help out the hosts of the show. While ideally the hosts of the show should have judges lined up prior to the day of the show, I do not think I have ever been to a local show where there hasn't been a call out for additional volunteers to judge.

 

If the Idle Head Car Judge does not want to judge himself, at least ask him if he will train some judges from within your IPMS club to judge cars. If he declines to be part of the solution, you can see that he may be part of the problem and if so, you probably don't want him around any way. He may not even want to see the IPMS succeed in attracting car modelers. It could pull members from his organization and perhaps his own show. He may see it as the IPMS invading his turf and hope you fail. His actions at your show lead me to believe this may be true; he can now say to his fellow club members that he tried to go to an IPMS show and compete but the judging was a complete fiasco. Those that didn't go will only know what he tells them.

 

As far as categories, I can also see having limited categories if there is going to be a small number of entries, but also having a prepared and publicized plan alreday in place to split that category into NNL-type categories if the number of entries reaches a certain level. Make that split mark known as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WEll have any of you really and i mean really talked to car guys, Tim and I deal with a indepedent Club here in South Carolina called South Carolina Modelers Association which is primarly a model car club. sure they build other things but what they are primarly known for are cars, I have attended their Greenville,Spartanburg, and Charleston contests and when it comes to their contests. The cars are judged by the modelers themselves while military,Ships etc are judged IPMS style. Last year i attended a car show in Spartanburg that had a small model contest with it, mostly SCMA members showed up and in the lull time i talked to one guy and mentioned he should enter an IPMS show. his answer was no the reason being he did not like our rules & our style of judging or how our catergories are set up. You see these guys don't think like IPMS Members do where as we put emphisis on Basic Construction,Paint, Decal and overall authinticity. These guys don't focus on that sure they will go all out on a beautiful paint job, but will leave details like mold pins under the hood, or leave seams on the transmission etc. , now how do you resolve this with IPMS and car guys. first off look at us as group IPMS has the stygmatism of being Planes & Military, as a scifi-builder who dabbles in cars it is a little off putting especially to anyone outside of those catergories maybe it is time to put emphsis of all models and modelers instead of Planes and Military. 2. as far as catergories and judging goes you may have to adaopt a different policy when it comes to cars something like The SCMA does, Do i like it NO,but maybe changing how the cars are judged at IPMS contests will get this stygmatism off our backs. I am only posting my opinon not here to cause any trouble or hurt feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You bring a not unexpected look at the situation Chris. For several years I've heard much the same thing through the grape vine. That being that the car guys don't like the way IPMS judges, category set ups aside. I've heard time and again that their emphasis is on the final finish while IPMS judges are nit pickers.

 

I do have a couple of questions for you. First, how are cars judged by SCMA? Is it what I've heard referred to as NLL where it's essentially a popular favorite based on votes from the attendees?

 

And second, how would we integrate the two judging styles? At a local level, it's really pretty easy. You do like you described and let each genre be judged as they wish. But what do you do when you get to the Nationals? Every class has a best of selected, and then those are all compared to each other to find a best in show. What's going to happen when a near perfect aircraft, SciFi, armor, figure, etc, is compared to the best automotive, which upon examination by the head judges, is found to have a flawless gloss finish, but also those ejector pin marks under the hood and seams visible? It seems to me that in that kind of scenario, the car will always lose, even if it's got the vote of the head car judge. So we don't end up with a best in show car for years and years, and the car guys are back to saying IPMS is biased against them. As I say, at a local level, judging things as you wish doesn't stir up too much. But at something like the Nationals, I think the judging all has to be as consistent as possible so that all the best of's can be equitably compared and a best in show fairly selected.

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have noticed car models at contests with paint jobs so thick and shiney that the car door seam is almost invisible. Conversely, I have seen NASCAR models that look so amazingly detailed that all they need is a small scale road rage driver and they could roar to life.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WEll have any of you really and i mean really talked to car guys,

 

We have, and many of us are "car guys". Some of us have tried very hard to address the real problems that IPMS has with respect to car categories and judging.

 

I have also heard the car modelers whispering about how IPMS doesn't know anything about cars or how to judge them and how stupid the rules are - while they have models entered at an IPMS show. Almost always the guys bad-mouthing IPMS have no idea how what the rules actually are or how IPMS judging works - they're just making stuff up to impress some newbie about how they're so talented that no one else could possibly appreciate their work.

 

I don't think there will ever be any support within IPMS for the idea of ignoring glaring errors in construction to appease modelers who will never join anyhow.

 

Just out of curiosity - do the cars that win at GSLMCC have bare plastic and ejector pin marks showing? If they do, the magazines do a very good job of hiding that in the photos...

 

Don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On judging: I always am amazed when someone enters a contest and feels they were "cheated" by the judges and the judging was "wrong" or "suspect". As for the particulars, the comment "These guys (car modelers, per the original poster's intent) don't focus on that sure they will go all out on a beautiful paint job, but will leave details like mold pins under the hood, or leave seams on the transmission etc. , now how do you resolve this with IPMS and car guys." How do you resolve it? Read the IPMS Competition Handbook. Under "Automotive", the number one phase is "Basic Construction". And I quote:

 

Automotive

Basic Construction

1. Flash, sink marks, mold marks, ejector-pin marks,and similar molding flaws eliminated.

2. Seams filled if not found on the actual vehicle. (This is especially important on the car’s body. Rubberized kit tires usually also have a mold seam that must be removed.)

3. Contour errors corrected.

4. Gaps between body and chassis eliminated as applicable.

5. Detailing removed while accomplishing the above steps restored to a level consistent with the rest of the model.

6. Alignment:

A. Where applicable, external items (e.g., mirrors, exhaust pipes) aligned symmetrically.

B. Internal items (e.g., seats, some engine/drive components) aligned properly.

C. Wheels: All wheels touching the ground and aligned properly when viewed from front or rear of the vehicle. If turned, front wheels should be aligned in the same direction.

7. Windshields and other clear areas:

A. Clear and free of crazing caused by adhesives or finishing coats.

B. Gaps between windshield, windows, or other clear parts eliminated where applicable.

C. All clear areas scratch-, blemish-, and paint-free.

 

Notice number 1. Mold marks, mold flaws, etc. need to be eliminated. There it is in black and white. And it follows the basic IPMS premise on judging--Basic Construction always comes first. That's where a great many models miss the cut--the basics of good model construction are not followed. Period.

 

What amazes me is that some modelers won't read the rules before they enter a particular contest. It usually comes down to the fact that they didn't win (or, according to them, they got screwed out of a trophy) because they either didn't read or decided to disregard the rules of the road. You wanna play in the IPMS ballpark? You need to do so by the IPMS rules. No more, no less. Simple, really...nothing to "resolve".

 

I've heard the car modeler's gripes for years--and I do build car models myself, so I'm not saying this as a car-basher. The answer has always been what I just posted--read, understand, and follow the rules of the contest you are entering. Similar gripes are heard from a modeler who builds OOB, then enters an IPMS contest and doesn't provide the instruction sheet. Their model is rightfully DQ'd from OOB and moved to the open category, but according to the modeler somehow that's a failing on the part of IPMS--when in reality it is that the modeler has not followed the rules spelled out Competition Handbook.

 

I wouldn't expect to win at a SCMA event if I didn't read, understand, and follow their rules. Same for AMPS, or any of the other competitive modeling groups. And that's as it should be, since each group has a different take on how models "should" be built.

 

FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.

 

Ralph

Edited by Ralph Nardone
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, let me weight in on this issue. As a model car builder for close to 50 years and judging contest locally outside of IPMS for over 15 years, I think I have a bit of a different take on this issue then has been offered here. As a model car builder I have no problem whatsoever with the IPMS judging guidelines. They are in fact pretty much common sense and fit the criteria we use when judging a contest. We do use a defined point system to determine where an entrant places within a class etc. I take umbrage with so called “People’s Choice” contests, they are not and never will be true representations of a contest. More often than not the award winners are not the best builds on the table. “People’s Choice” contest more often than not reward those who paint their entries some bright Red, Yellow or some other bright color. In my opinion these are not contest but the politically correct way of getting out of determining an actual winner as no one has to be responsible for those decisions.

 

As for IPMS judging, if a plea is made for judging help at a show/contest, no matter the category, and those in that category make no effort to fill the void, then shame on you. I’m sorry but you have no room to complain whatsoever, plain and simple. I completely agree that WE need to expand the classes within the ‘Automotive – Non-Military’. To include ‘Traditional Hot Rods’ with Muscle Cars and Street Machines just doesn’t work, they are three very different and unique styles of building. Within local contest we may have 4-5 sub-categories within “Hot Rods” and normally 16 or so categories judged in a ‘Model Car Contest’.

 

As a model car builder, I see there are at times a major chasm between Model Car Builders and those who build Aircraft, Armor etc. We tend to build free style, what we see in our minds eye, seldom if ever do we build a true ‘Replica’. Where those who build Aircraft and Armor tend to build Replicas. I tell all who I come into contact with that no matter the style we build; we have skills that we can share with one another. If we follow the IPMS Judging Guidelines it should make no difference whether an entry is built Free Style or a True Replica. A cleanly built model is always a joy to judge; I’d much rather judge builds where I don’t spend all my time picking out the flaws instead of being awed by the builders skills.

 

One of the problems WE all have to deal with is a fellow IPMS member who appoint themselves experts and decide to critique others builds. These members and their actions tend to chase away members and potential new members. As RC I’ve had this very situation brought to my attention within the past few months.

 

We are a bit different here in the PNW as we have two of our twelve member chapters who are model car groups. One of the things we have had to deal with is the increase in entries in “Automotive – Non-Military”. At the first IPMS show of 2012 model car entries accounted for 50% of the total entries. At the Region 7 Regional, model cars accounted for aprox 25% of the entries. At both events I’ve had to go to the chapter hosting the event and request additional space for the entrants to put their builds on the table. Believe me it’s a good problem to have.

 

There is no quick fix for this situation; we need to seriously consider opening dialog on how to include more model car builders into our fold. The only way to make this happen is to get past the stigma of IPMS being a bunch rivet counters. It’s not going to be easy to get past, IF we are willing to make the effort I have no doubt we can make it happen.

 

Yes, this means I’m open to being part of the dialog. Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a member of both the San Diego Model Car Club/IPMS and the San Diego IPMS. These 2 IPMS Club's are very different, but they have joined togather to put on the San Diego Model Expo and Swap meet! Actually the Swap meet is put on by The San Diego Air and Space Museum so this event is actually done by 3 seperate groups. Although this is just the 2nd year that the San Diego Model Car Club has been involved with this contest it has been working very well. They have added the following categories within the contest: Automobiles: Juniors, Production/Replica, Street Rod/Hot Rod/ Street Machine, Custom, Competition/Non-Drag Racing, Drag Racing, Large Scale, Low Rider, Motorcycles, Out of Box; as well as Best Car Model, Best Car interior and Best Finish. In addition the SDMCC has 100 Years of Chevrolet and the SD IPMS has 100 Years of Marine Aviation as special Themes. The SDMCC raised money for category sponserships and will provide Judges for these areas. These two groups are very supportive of each other and should be a model of how this can work better even at a nationial level. Incedendently the San Diego Model Expo and Swap Meet is coming up on Saturday June 2nd at the San Diego Air & Space Museum Annex at Gillespie Field [335 Kenny Street, El Cajon California, 92020] from 8 am to about 4:30. One neat thing about this arrangement is that we get both Military and Car Model Vendors at this event. Those of you that are discusing this issue above should try to come to this event and actually talk to the orginizers and particepents to see how this can actually be done, not just talked about. Dan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David,

 

Since you seem like a new name in these discussions (some have been going on in fits and starts for years) I wanted to mention a recent development. After lots of discussion here, a few months ago I sent Dick Christ a proposal for changes to the Automotive categories (you can see a near-final draft here). It addresses some of the problems you alluded to (e.g. the difference between a Hot Rod and a Street Machine). Hopefully there will be some discussion of this in Orlando.

 

In general, I think IPMS needs to do some fence mending with auto modelers:

  • First make some good faith attempt to address known issues (like tweaking categories);
  • then reach out to auto-modelers, making them feel welcome and asking them to join IPMS to drive future change;
  • and then set up a task-force of well known auto-modelers to suggest and review changes.

This would be a largely symbolic act; most of the real issues have already been resolved, but the hard-feelings from long-ago live on and need to be addressed before everyone will be ready to move on. However I think you'll find a lot of resentment within IPMS to the "fence mending" idea, as a lot of long-time IPMSers see it as an admission of guilt or a sign of weakness.

 

Don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, while you are correct in that I am new to weighing in on this discussion, I am quite familiar with the ongoing dialog. Prior to becoming an IPMS member and our club becoming an IPMS Chapter we heard nothing but horror stories about how Model Car Builders had been treated at IPMS events. I did go and read your proposal and will say that for the most part I agree with it. There are some tweaks I'd like to see with it. However, I am all too familiar with what can happen when you go from proposal to committee. More often than not you end up with a platypus as everyone wants their “Special” category included.

 

I find that more often than not the biggest issue comes down to either not know the rules or the rules being too vague. The discussion about either changing or eliminating ‘Curbside’ category, to me is just that a misunderstanding of what a Curbside truly is. We have always used the definition of a Curbside being any model that does not have an engine. A full interior is required, any tire/wheel combination is allowed, hood scoops and blowers are allowed. Exotics with engines under a clear rear window such as used on Ferrari’s are not considered Curbsides.

 

One of the biggest problems I see with the current category list is in the Custom category. In most Non-IPMS shows a Build is considered a Custom if 25% or more of the body panels have been modified. I have seen IPMS events where a box stock Ferrari was considered a Custom because the full scale car was hand built. By Non-IPMS standards this model would have ended up in Factory Stock or an Exotics category. Definitions for Categories are the key to getting everyone on board to making IPMS attractive to Model Car Builders. By no stretch of the imagination am I advocating that IPMS go out of its way to draw in Model Car Builders, but we need to do something to add to the numbers of Model Car Builders.

 

I’m not sure that there needs to be any overt ‘Mending Fences’, I honestly think there could be as much damage by making a big deal out of trying to “make things right” as there is in turning a blind eye and pretending that things have always been right.

 

One of the problems I see that Host Chapters are faced with is funding additional categories and having no one show up for that Category. The first show of the year here in Region 7 had entries in less than 50% of the Categories. Being those awards are more often than not unique to a given event and year that is a major expense no matter how you look at it. The same show had 2 total awards for Automotive Categories. I spent most of the show calming down entrants because of the limited number of awards. But, when there have been limited number of entries in the past several years the numbers of awards were scaled back because of the expense.

 

This is an issue that can be resolved, IF, we have people who are willing to allow and willing to make it happen.

 

As I said before, I am more than willing to be part of the dialog to make Model Cars a viable part of IPMS event not just an afterthought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not sure that there needs to be any overt ‘Mending Fences’, I honestly think there could be as much damage by making a big deal out of trying to “make things right” as there is in turning a blind eye and pretending that things have always been right.

...

This is an issue that can be resolved, IF, we have people who are willing to allow and willing to make it happen.

 

As I said before, I am more than willing to be part of the dialog to make Model Cars a viable part of IPMS event not just an afterthought.

 

David,

 

This seems like a contradiction. How can there be a dialog if IPMS doesn't (officially) say anything?

 

You said yourself you had "heard nothing but horror stories". I think IPMS (the officers - not just the rank and file hoping to get more car modelers to their shows) need to say something to counter that negative image.

 

Don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

One of the problems I see that Host Chapters are faced with is funding additional categories and having no one show up for that Category. The first show of the year here in Region 7 had entries in less than 50% of the Categories. Being those awards are more often than not unique to a given event and year that is a major expense no matter how you look at it. The same show had 2 total awards for Automotive Categories. I spent most of the show calming down entrants because of the limited number of awards. But, when there have been limited number of entries in the past several years the numbers of awards were scaled back because of the expense.

 

 

Just a general suggestion here. Dan mentioned the IPMS San Diego/IPMS San Diego Model Car Club show comming up this weekend. What we have done in this show to help with this issue, it that the class trophies are somewhat generic. That is - 1st, 2nd and 3rd place only. I know that a number of shows put the catagory on the award. Using a generic trophy means you can use them accross catagories and allows a better cost controls. Last year, I made a mistake and didn't split any of the catagories. I should have split a couple of them, just to even the number of entrants per catagory. This year I will make sure that that happens.

 

I would also like to point out the sucess we had with last years event. We really had a good turn out and hope to see it again this year. I will post numbers after the event on Saturday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Horror stories work in both directions. Some years ago I attended a Region 5 Convention in Council Bluffs, IA. The hosts, having conferred with the automotive model builders in advance, added a large number of automotive categories to attract the known large number of automotive modelers in the Omaha area. Two hours before the registration closed on Saturday at noon, there were a total of SIX automotive entries across all the categories, and none were from those local automotive builders. One guy from the Des Moines area (I know who but will not name him) bought a Firebird glue kit from a vendor table, bought a spray bomb, grabbed his tools, and built the kit in less than two hours in the front lobby at a registration table. The paint dried (mostly) in the sun outside the window. Using a felt marker he added taxi livery and entered the model in the commercial vehicles category. This was as crude a model as they can get, yet he won first place in that category by default. His "point" was that there is not much a host can do when the tables are empty, and even the worst model can be a winner. The host ate many awards that day for their dinners.

 

Plastic models for airplane, armor, ship, and automotive subjects all come from the same model companies. The model manufacturers don't care how we build them; they just want us to keep buying them. The kits all have parts on trees that must be removed, cleaned up, painted, and glued into the correct locations. All the fuss seems to be about the techniques used by the various "specialists" and the accepted "standards" of visual presentation of the finished products. What appeals to one person is a turn-off to another. So, who is "right?" Who is "wrong?" When "personalities" from each group can't compromise or bury long-held complaints or grudges, the stalemates will continue.

 

I have five automotive models in various stages of progress on or near my workspace along with my aircraft, sci-fi, ships, and figure models, so I am equally interested in modeling a variety of subjects.

 

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, I guess I need to explain my thought process. If in order to move forward an apology is needed or required all we do is bring new members into asking what the issue is/was in the first place. I honestly do not believe it serves any purpose to continually bring up past wrongs. If we can learn from past ills we stand a better chance of making things right. From my point of view, to continue bringing up the past serves as much purpose as doing the same thing in a marriage. If we can’t get past the ills of the past we’ll never have a chance to move forward. Perhaps, this is something of a Pollyanna view of things, but I’ve found in life if we learn for the sins of the past we have a better chance of not allowing it to happen again. If we don’t learn from the ills of the past we’re destined to repeat them.

 

Ed, I completely agree with you when it comes to using generic awards. At the 4 Non-IPMS shows that our club hosts every year we use generic categories. Beings we normally have no clear cut idea what will or won’t show up we limit the right to change categories as needed. Once we have the categories established based on the models entered we use a label maker to ‘personalize’ the awards to the categories. We receive emails and phone calls wanting a list of categories so modelers know what to bring to enter. We tell them “bring any and everything you want, we’ll fit it into a category”. Normally, we have anywhere from 16 to 20 categories. In 20 plus years of running shows this way we’ve yet to have a problem and very seldom do we ever end up with unused awards. I don’t know if there is any sure fire way to produce a contest/show that works 100% all the time. I do know we need to revamp how we currently do things.

 

As I’ve noted before, I have no issue at all on the judging guidelines, they’re pretty much common sense. In my book they fit into that “Duh” category. The thing we tend to preach at our shows/contests is to build each and every piece of the build as if it were going to be in a judged contest against other similar sub-assemblies. If you use this philosophy to build each sub-assembly you increase your chances of producing an award winner. If a model car entry deserves to win“Best of” awards then it should garner that award, if it doesn’t then flat out it doesn’t. I would hate to see us giving a “Best of” award to an entry, no matter the category, that doesn’t deserve it just to right past wrongs. The judging guidelines are easily found on the IPMS website, if a member/non-member doesn’t make the effort to locate and read the guidelines, prior to an event, I find it difficult to feel very sorry for them. It’s not like we’ve hidden the guidelines and unless you know the secret handshake you can’t see them.

 

There are no easy answers to this ongoing situation, it will require a group of IPMS members who are willing to sit down and have honest open dialog. Once the dialog has been established and changes are proposed they need to be implemented otherwise, we have accomplished nothing more the providing lip-service to one another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, I guess I need to explain my thought process. If in order to move forward an apology is needed or required all we do is bring new members into asking what the issue is/was in the first place. I honestly do not believe it serves any purpose to continually bring up past wrongs. If we can learn from past ills we stand a better chance of making things right. From my point of view, to continue bringing up the past serves as much purpose as doing the same thing in a marriage. If we can’t get past the ills of the past we’ll never have a chance to move forward. Perhaps, this is something of a Pollyanna view of things, but I’ve found in life if we learn for the sins of the past we have a better chance of not allowing it to happen again. If we don’t learn from the ills of the past we’re destined to repeat them.

...

 

There are no easy answers to this ongoing situation, it will require a group of IPMS members who are willing to sit down and have honest open dialog. Once the dialog has been established and changes are proposed they need to be implemented otherwise, we have accomplished nothing more the providing lip-service to one another.

 

David,

 

The conflicts between IPMS and Car Modelers were often big and messy, and are still well remembered (and mis-remembered) by lots of folks who were there and happily retell the stories of 30+ years ago to every new guy in the door. If we want to wait another 30 years, maybe IPMS can just "move on". If IPMS wants to do something now, my opinion is that there has to be some sort of gesture made to show IPMS takes this seriously.

 

It doesn't have to be a groveling apology. If the IPMS President made a public statement to the effect that "a lot of dumb things happened while most of us were still in grade school, but now its time for us all to pull together for the good of the hobby" I think that could go a long way to "mending fences". And then, as you say, IPMS needs to follow through and actually listen and change things - something else they are not especially good at. Until there is a commitment from the officers and NCC to do something, everything else (including this conversation) is just lip-service.

 

Don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...