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dakehrer

Open Top AFV, What are they?

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If you where judging the Armor category "Open-Top AFV's" , would be correct to place, say, a Sherman with it's hatch open in this category?

 

What would you consider the definition of the "Open-Top AFV"?

 

 

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I believe the definition is that an open topped vehicle is one that is designed to fight with it's top open. i.e. Marder, M-10, M-36, etc. A Sherman is designed to fight closed, so it is not an open topped vehicle. Now, at the National Contest Level, the category is actually "Open Topped Vehicles or vehicles with other than kit supplied interior." That means if you super-detailed your Sherman interior with a bunch of scratch building, PE and/or resin, it would go in this category.

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Ron has this pretty much correct. This is a question that comes up from time to time. This may be because the rules for the National Contest can be confusing. Back in the early '90's when I was new to judging, Art Gerber (late Head Armor Judge and a great guy) gave this explaination. An "open top" is any vehicle having interior detail visible. This would automatically include SPG's etc. It would also include a tank or armored car with the hatches open and through which interior detail can be seen. This also applies to open engine hatches too. Exceptions can be found if the model has figures in the hatches or the hatches are open but no detail has been added to the interior. The figures would block the view to the interior thus making it "closed top". Open hatches with no interior detail, we normally give the modeler some slack and allow it to be "closed top". While it would be nice for all the rules to be spelled out clearly, the somewhat vague rules allow the judges some leeway, usually in favor of the builder. I don't know if this helps but if in doubt, ask the head judge for the contest.

 

Good luck,

Mark

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Belay my first response. I double checked and the National category is actually "Open Topped AFVs and AFVs with interiors - 1/48 and larger (kit provided or scratch-built, all eras, including assault guns and self-propelled guns). That means a Sherman with the hatches/panels open and with any kit or after market interior visible would be in this category. However, if the example Sherman had the turret hatches open and there was no interior provided with the kit, it could be in the Closed Top Vehicle category. But, as Mark said, we have some latitude. If a modeler does a Sherman that has a gun breech provided but not much else, but has the hatch open and a figure in the opening so you can't really see the interior, we would probably let it be entered in Closed Top to give the modeler a break.

 

However, remember that local and regional contests may not use National categories or definitions. The main thing to do is consult whatever contest your entering's rules beforehand and if they are not clear, ask when you register your model. If there is any doubt, it wouldn't even be a bad idea to note on your entry form that this is the category the registrar placed your model so the judges don't just think you made a mistake but rather this is where you intend your model to be.

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- Hmmmm, just read this. This is interesting and very illuminating. This is exactly what I tried telling Don's buddies at our Region X Convention on May 21st thru 22nd. It seemed that no matter how many different ways I tried to explain these exact points to the small group, they just.......either didn't get it......or refused to admit I got it right.

- Yer probably wondering what the ba-geebers I'm talkin about at this point. I was the Head Judge for the Region X Contest/Convention and apparently a few of the participants objected or were offended when I made a "Head Judgement call" and moved (carefully and with gloves on) a few entries from the "Closed Top" category over to the "Open Top" category because these "usually considered closed top vehicles" had open hatches (without crew members present) and/or open engine access panels. All of which were filled with interior and/or engine details. Those that disagreed insisted that the vehicles I moved were "Closed Top" vehicles and should not have been moved. When questioned about my decision and told how wrong I was, I explained everything that Ron and Mark have posted here......to no avail. So much so, that I sought out the advice from not just 1.......or 2, but........4 different, long time Nationals qualified judges to get their input on the matter. Not one of them disagreed with me, so I stood my ground. I offered my rationale up to the dissatisfied participants several more times throughout the evening (as they continued to protest) only to be rudely told how wrong I still was. Oh well. The rest of the attendees went home happy.

- FWIW, the category was entitled, "Open Top and with Interiors, tracked AFVs, 1/35 and Larger." That apparently didn't matter either.

- Thank you Ron and Mark for clarifying this issue. Don, please pass this information on to the guys that were complaining to you about this. Apparently, of the 4 that I sent an email to after the Regional, explaining all that Ron and Mark posted here, I have so far only netted one reply with an acknowledgement of my decision (with an apology of a sort) of which I'm grateful for. The other guys that "railed" on me the most, especially the rudist of them all, haven't bothered to reply. Oh well. We had such a great time outside of this, we'll certainly still host Chile-Con III, in the future.

Edited by Weedeater

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Thanks Ron & Mark,

 

I did indeed have several complaints about this subject - stemming from the last RECON 10. Since I didn't have any idea of what the definition of "Open Top AFV" was, I thought I'd ask. When I took a look at the definitions on the IPMS/USA and the RECON 10 website I found very little to clarify the category parameters

As a courtesy I'll ask the interested parties to access this thread. And my "buddies" too I guess?

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- Hmmmm, just read this. This is interesting and very illuminating. This is exactly what I tried telling Don's buddies at our Region X Convention on May 21st thru 22nd. It seemed that no matter how many different ways I tried to explain these exact points to the small group, they just.......either didn't get it......or refused to admit I got it right.

- Yer probably wondering what the ba-geebers I'm talkin about at this point. I was the Head Judge for the Region X Contest/Convention and apparently a few of the participants objected or were offended when I made a "Head Judgement call" and moved (carefully and with gloves on) a few entries from the "Closed Top" category over to the "Open Top" category because these "usually considered closed top vehicles" had open hatches (without crew members present) and/or open engine access panels. All of which were filled with interior and/or engine details. Those that disagreed insisted that the vehicles I moved were "Closed Top" vehicles and should not have been moved. When questioned about my decision and told how wrong I was, I explained everything that Ron and Mark have posted here......to no avail. So much so, that I sought out the advice from not just 1.......or 2, but........4 different, long time Nationals qualified judges to get their input on the matter. Not one of them disagreed with me, so I stood my ground. I offered my rationale up to the dissatisfied participants several more times throughout the evening (as they continued to protest) only to be rudely told how wrong I still was. Oh well. The rest of the attendees went home happy.

- FWIW, the category was entitled, "Open Top and with Interiors, tracked AFVs, 1/35 and Larger." That apparently didn't matter either.

- Thank you Ron and Mark for clarifying this issue. Don, please pass this information on to the guys that were complaining to you about this. Apparently, of the 4 that I sent an email to after the Regional, explaining all that Ron and Mark posted here, I have so far only netted one reply with an acknowledgement of my decision (with an apology of a sort) of which I'm grateful for. The other guys that "railed" on me the most, especially the rudist of them all, haven't bothered to reply. Oh well. We had such a great time outside of this, we'll certainly still host Chile-Con III, in the future.

 

Since I was the one that openly told Ken "I think you're wrong" he must be referring to me being the rude one that supposedly "railed" him about it. Get over it. We talked once when the whole thing was over and done along with one other person present and I won't drag him into this. I simply stated what I felt at the time then listened to your rebuttal about the issue and if I'm not mistaken politely said "Good night", then shook your hand before turning in for the evening. The category still has me puzzled. As long as I have been modeling an Open Top AFV has been a Nashorn, M-10, M-18 etc. This whole new ruling is just that to me...new. If that's the way it is, I'll deal with it. But don't call me rude just because I didn't agree with you and voiced it. And I believe my exact words were.."This isn't personal Ken, but I think you're wrong." Nothing more. Am I going to apologize for speaking my mind? No. Time to move on. I have more important things to think about.....

MQ~

Edited by mquiroz

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Matt, glad to see that you have had an opportunity to read Ron's and Mark's comments. I had concerns that you might continue attending Regional and National contests unaware of how they have been applying the "Open Tops and AFVs with Interiors" rules and placements. They have been doing it this way back to 2000, maybe even further back.

 

Since I was the one that openly told Ken "I think you're wrong" he must be referring to me being the rude one that supposedly "railed" him about it.
Actually, all 4 of you told me I was "wrong" and two of you seemed to rail on me more than the others. Sad thing is, not one of you has apologized for insisting I was wrong because it turns out, I was right. That's OK, we're pretty sure we'll get it right again at Chile-Con III.

 

.....Get over it. We talked once when the whole thing was over and done along with one other person present and I won't drag him into this.
I had three different conversations with any variation of the 4 attendees that were stressing their point of view. Sorry, can't remember how many of them you were present for.

 

.....I simply stated what I felt at the time then listened to your rebuttal about the issue and if I'm not mistaken politely said "Good night", then shook your hand before turning in for the evening.
Just the words, may sound polite. It was the delivery, tone, and posture that in my mind demonstrated an arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, rude attitude. At no time during your expressed opinion (nor even here in your posting) have you afforded me any recognition or respect for the rationale I applied to the decision. If I read your tone, posture, and attitude wrong and your intent was to be polite with a true interest to enlightening me, then please accept my apology.

 

.....The category still has me puzzled. As long as I have been modeling an Open Top AFV has been a Nashorn, M-10, M-18 etc. This whole new ruling is just that to me...new.
As stated in the three conversations and in my email on June 3rd, I acknowledged and agree that AFVs like Nashorns, M-18s, and Marder IIIMs are examples of "Open Top" vehicles, while Tigers, Shermans, and Matildas are examples of "Closed Top' AFVs. You are not the first modeler/attendee to see confusion in the category title....description.....placings. Unfortunately, discontent with those should be directed at the National level and/or the NCC. Again, they have been doing it this way for over 10 years. I merely applied the same doctrine across the board and "to-the-letter" to our hosting of the Region X Contest. A specific point that was generally dismissed "because I was doing it wrong" during the course of the three conversations I was engaged in.

 

.....If that's the way it is, I'll deal with it. But don't call me rude just because I didn't agree with you and voiced it. And I believe my exact words were.."This isn't personal Ken, but I think you're wrong." Nothing more. Am I going to apologize for speaking my mind? No. Time to move on. I have more important things to think about.....

MQ~

Sorry Matt, but IMHO you did deliver it in a personal way. I figure that I'm right by saying you have/had no idea of what and how much experience and knowledge I have at administering rules and contests. You demonstrated a lack of willingness to "listen" to what I had to say about the matter by dismissing it without an acknowledgment nor any indication that maybe, just maybe.....I was right.

- The icing on the cake was feedback that we had received from the group (*) that you attended with. Amongst all of the great positive feedback we got, we also got some not-so great feedback. Most all of it was constructive. But the least constructive comments included:

".....the confusion about open top AFV's vs. closed top needs to be fixed."

"The judges should too…especially the head judge Educate yourselves on the vehicles and what categories they belong in."

"If there is confusion about a category it needs to be addressed long before the contest takes place….not during."

"Admit when something is wrong and then fix it."

 

It's OK with me if you still do not want to admit that I got it right. Please, understand that unless and until the category name and/or definition changes or is clarified further by the NCC, we will continue to administer any Contests that we host in the same manner. Read ya later.

 

* (Trying not to name Chapters, or Groups, or geographic locations because I wish to assure you that this is sooooo NOT an "us against them" thing. We have enjoyed attending and participating in other Shows/Regional Conventions in Reg10 and we have really enjoyed having all of the participation from the rest of the Region's members at our shin-digs. We truly hope that it will continue for years to come).

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You know, I'm not really going to lose any sleep over this, so lets just move on. Ok? You got it right...

MQ~

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I really hate to see guys get upset over model contests. In the end, our contests are for people to gather to enjoy a common interest. The contest results allow some of you to take home a token of "success" and short lived bragging rights. Having said this, every contest I've ever attended has had some level of confusion usually involving a different interpretation of the rules. My club just finished putting on our 6th annual contest and we had a great time. As the head judge, I added information to the list of caterory/class spelling out what is an "open top" and what is a "closed top". It helped folks to understand the difference.....at least we had no complaints and we followed the Nats rules (mostly). I, also, have a printed copy of the Nats rules available for folks to refer to since our contest flyer states we follow those rules.

2 more cents worth,

Mark

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Right on the money Mark!

All the pieces of the orchestra should be in tune. Including the brass section.

This is a "hobby", right?

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Mark did a great job as Head Judge. He was available in the display room to address any questions all through show.

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