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Question on coverting F-4C/D to F-4J


burner12
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I recently bought the Revell F-4C/D kit, and was going to make either Old's or Ritchie's plane. But now am reconsidering, and thinking about making Cur Dose's plane. Problem is i have a C/D and VF-92 flew Js. Plus do the decals for his plane even exist? And is it possible to convert a C/D to a J?

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I recently bought the Revell F-4C/D kit, and was going to make either Old's or Ritchie's plane. But now am reconsidering, and thinking about making Cur Dose's plane. Problem is i have a C/D and VF-92 flew Js. Plus do the decals for his plane even exist? And is it possible to convert a C/D to a J?

Hi Richard,

- The US Air Force flew C's, D's, E's, and G's. Conversely, the US Navy flew B's, J's, N's, and S's. I cannot think of an occassion when they each flew the other version except on a possible rare occasion when it was a hybrid airframe, like the USN Bicentennial Screamin Eagle. (But even that is an "iffy" example).

- Typically, (but not always), B, C, D, N's had the earlier engines and E, J, S's had the later engines. These engine differences are usually the first clue to look for when modeling a Phantom, because the two types of exhaust cans clearly look different.

- Then you look at the main wheels. Typically, B, C, D, and N's have the narrow wheels and the thinner wings to house them, while E, J, and S's have the wider wheels and the thicker wings to house them. On a model, the thicker wing can usually be seen as a raised/bulged panel area over the wheel wells.

- Late E's and almost all S's had the extend-able slats on the wing leading edges. This requires adding the actuator fairings under the inboard wings and the clearly visible slats on the upper, outboard wings.

- There is also a difference in the leading edges on the vertical stablator slats (sort of an inverse slat) from early Phantoms to later Phantoms.

- Next is pylons. In almost all cases, the USAF used rounded leading edged inboard pylons and the USN used pointer leading edged inboard pylons.

- There are also a small host of smaller details that vary between USAF and USN Phantoms, like the under nose infrared seeker bulges and the carrier operation details on USN Phantoms that are not present on USAF Phantoms, like the launch lugs on the bottom of the wings to attach the launch bridle to, etc, etc.

 

.....And this does not cover the various RF versions of the Phantom, which can sometimes get even more convoluted.

 

- So, if you want "accuracy" your USAF C/D won't really look like a USN, J if you just paint it in Gull Gray and white. It is possible to convert it, but that would require some good reference books and either some good conversion skills or some after-market products.

If you just want to enjoy building a model, the above differences are usually un-noticeable to the average person. Model on.

 

As for decals, you didn't mention what scale you're working in, although I can't think of any 72nd, 48th, or 32nd Revell C/D issue. But the way Revell and Monogram are bouncing their molds back and forth, :smiley5: who knows. You may now have a Monogram molded C/D in a Revell labeled box. There is an Aeromaster 1/48 sheet 48-502:

 

Aeromaster 48-502

 

....that includes a VF-92 bird. There is also a 1/72 Monogram kit that includes VF-92 markings. Here is one on Evil-bay right now:

 

Monogram 1/72 F-4J

 

- Unfortunately, I do not know if either of these two options are markings specifically for Cur Dose. HTH anyways.

Edited by Weedeater
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Richard,

- I did a little googling and apparently you aren't the only one that has been looking for Silverkite 211 decals. These other guys on ARC and Zone-Five were inspired by some aviation artwork by Philip West of Lt. Dose lining up on the Connie in '72.

- Apparently, Fox One had a sheet, (48-001) in 1/48 scale a few years ago for this aircraft. They are reported to have re-issued the sheet as 48-009! The Big-Ole-Bummer is that it looks like Fox One quit producing decals last Dec 2009!!! :smiley19:

- Still not sure if yer lookin for 72, 48, or 12th!!! scale. But HTH narrow down a sheet number to go looking for on evilbay or to advertise if someones got a sheet that they used the other markings off of. Good luck with the search. :smiley14:

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Richard,

- I did a little googling and apparently you aren't the only one that has been looking for Silverkite 211 decals. These other guys on ARC and Zone-Five were inspired by some aviation artwork by Philip West of Lt. Dose lining up on the Connie in '72.

- Apparently, Fox One had a sheet, (48-001) in 1/48 scale a few years ago for this aircraft. They are reported to have re-issued the sheet as 48-009! The Big-Ole-Bummer is that it looks like Fox One quit producing decals last Dec 2009!!! :smiley19:

- Still not sure if yer lookin for 72, 48, or 12th!!! scale. But HTH narrow down a sheet number to go looking for on evilbay or to advertise if someones got a sheet that they used the other markings off of. Good luck with the search. :smiley14:

 

Thanks Ken, that was nice of you. I found the same pages, and keep coming up with the decals that depict the CAG before the deactivation of the squadron, and I too saw those guys on ARC wanting the Fox One decals. I'm wondering if I could make it myself by just finding some good HQ prints and copy those images on to decal paper, and I'm sure with a model kit of a J the rest would come with the sheet provided ie. danger areas no step, us roundel, etc. But the problem I'm coming across is I might be able to make it myself with decal paper but when I find HQ pictures of people who have built that plane they are taken at an angle, and I don't know that if I can just select one spot on the picture to make flat so that it could be a decal. I believe not?

 

Sorry i'm looking for 1/48

 

Great news Ken I found this page but don't believe they are selling them any more, can tell if they are in business?

 

http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/decals/f172001.htm

Edited by burner12
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- Then you look at the main wheels. Typically, B, C, D, and N's have the narrow wheels and the thinner wings to house them, while E, J, and S's have the wider wheels and the thicker wings to house them. On a model, the thicker wing can usually be seen as a raised/bulged panel area over the wheel wells.

 

Cs and Ds have the wide tires and wing bulges, the B, N and RF-4B (except for the last 10 or so) had the narrow wheels and flat wings.

 

To change a C to a J at arm's length, you need to, in order of obviousness:

 

 

 

  • use Navy style inner pylons (straight tops, not curved)
  • fill the IFR receptical in the spine and scribe the door for the IFR probe on the right side of the fuselage
  • use the correct burner cans
  • add/remove any applicable/inapplicable antennas (later J's have ALQ-126 antenna on the intakes and on the belly, five in all, if you're doing a 'Nam era jet you don't need to worry about them - RWR setup may be different
  • change the wheels, the Navy and Air Force wheels are both wide, but different styles
  • add catapult bridle hooks under the wing roots
  • scribe chaff/flare doors
  • alter the cockpits to suit - the back seat of a J is quite a bit different than that of a C, but then, most J kits are wrong too. No console on the right side, radar scope and hand control in pedestal on floor between RIO's feet, no throttle or stick...
It's up to you on how many of these changes to make, just using the correct colors and decals would convince 99% of the public.

Another thing to note is that the Navy/Marines seldom flew with wing tanks and almost always flew with a centerline tank. The Air Force is just the opposite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the help Dave, but I don't have that kind of experience in modeling to completely redo a Phantom and turn it into another version. So I decided to go ahead and buy Hasegawa's 1/48 F-4J.

 

But now I'm trying to find all the reference pictures I can to create decals just by copying the images of Silver Kite 211, and making them into decals. And a problem I'm facing is trying to find a way to put the black 211 on top of the yellow 211 on nose . And I can only figure out that in order to do so you need to just use black stencil lettering, or is there a way to put 2 colors on top?

 

Such as on this site

 

http://homepage.swissonline.ch/PMojzisek/P.../f4J%20VF92.htm

Edited by burner12
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From what I can see in the F-4 picture in your link, the 211 is simply a black #211 with a yellow 211 "shadow". This can be done with those 2 colored numbers. If you can't find regular water slide decals of sheets of numbers (from Superscale, or whoever) in black and yellow, then check out the Woodland Scenics turnstile of decals at the local hobbyshop (in the train section, most likely). These will be dry-transfer decals (rub in place), but they usually have a supply of lettering and numbers in various sizes, colors, and fonts.

 

All you need to do is find some black and yellow numbers of the same size that are also the right size for the model. Apply the yellow 211 first. Next, OFFSET the black 211 a little forward (towards the nose) and a little bit higher and apply them. The black 211 will cover most of the yellow 211, leaving just enough exposed to create the "shadow". The procedure is the same whether using dry-transfers or waterslide decals (though more tedious and difficult with dry-transfers!). Also, if you use dry-transfers, they need to be sealed with a clear coat to permanently set them in place. Of course, you'll also need to do all of this this for the "VF-92" on both sides too!

 

If all else fails, put ads in the "looking for/for sale" spaces on this forum and other forums asking for either those numbers and colors, or (if real lucky) the actual decal sheet that provides them. Hope this helps!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Edited by ghodges
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From what I can see in the F-4 picture in your link, the 211 is simply a black #211 with a yellow 211 "shadow". This can be done with those 2 colored numbers. If you can't find regular water slide decals of sheets of numbers (from Superscale, or whoever) in black and yellow, then check out the Woodland Scenics turnstile of decals at the local hobbyshop (in the train section, most likely). These will be dry-transfer decals (rub in place), but they usually have a supply of lettering and numbers in various sizes, colors, and fonts.

 

All you need to do is find some black and yellow numbers of the same size that are also the right size for the model. Apply the yellow 211 first. Next, OFFSET the black 211 a little forward (towards the nose) and a little bit higher and apply them. The black 211 will cover most of the yellow 211, leaving just enough exposed to create the "shadow". The procedure is the same whether using dry-transfers or waterslide decals (though more tedious and difficult with dry-transfers!). Also, if you use dry-transfers, they need to be sealed with a clear coat to permanently set them in place. Of course, you'll also need to do all of this this for the "VF-92" on both sides too!

 

If all else fails, put ads in the "looking for/for sale" spaces on this forum and other forums asking for either those numbers and colors, or (if real lucky) the actual decal sheet that provides them. Hope this helps!

 

GIL :smiley16:

 

Thanks for the help Gil, :)

Edited by burner12
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