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Real or Neat


Dakimbrell
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Looking at some pictures, I found the real thing was a bit sloppy on the paint job. If you saw a model like this, you gig it or praise it for realistic craftmanship? Would you be upset if your immaculate model lost to it?

Dak 

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Even with this photo on the table or in a notebook, I would hesitate to guarantee it would excuse what would be perceived as a "flawed" or "messy" paint job.

We have been trained to expect sharp lines.

I say this from experience having heard judges dismissing "sloppy" invasion stripes as "poorly executed" in 2009 at Columbus.

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      I’ve only been a judge one time at our local invitational. (Figures). If I saw a plane with the worn, chipped effect that was convincing, I wouldn’t disqualify it for that. That’s accuracy. Isn’t that what we modelers strive for? Every judge has one area that they are set in stone on. (Crisp/clean paint lines) Nothing wrong with that, but I would rather reward the modeler for a historic presentation rather than Disqualify them. 
           That’s just my two cents.

Chris.

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Judging is always subjective....to address your specific question; IF the "ragged" paint edge on the prop on the model was done to "scale", and looked like it was a case of "field Painting" (versus sloppy modeling), then it's not gigged. BUT, much of the time, whether it's THIS or (perhaps) an attempt to paint invasion stripes in a "realistic" sloppy manner, the modeler cannot pull it off in scale.

A more experienced judge MIGHT know that in the ETO there was a shortage of tape and often planes were masked and painted with wet newspaper, making for sloppy edge lines and overspray. Also, they often had to buy "local" stocks of paint (for houses and cars) and thus they didn't wear on the airplanes as well as aviation grade paints, leading to ragged wear lines. BUT, a LOT of judges DON'T know that....and thus will chalk up those attempts to failed model painting.

You pays your money and ya takes your chances! My advice (as always) is build it the way YOU want to for your shelf, look at winning anything as "gravy", and don't worry if the judges know less than you and don't give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

Gil :cool:

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Probably by the time you reduced the paint brush slip down to 1/72 or whatever, if you most likely be reduced to a soft straight line. But I agree and would like to see a reduction of the mania about perfect straight lines. Decals too, they were supposed to have been applied with a stencil and paint brush or large air brush...

The pic does remind me of another (which I couldn't find at the moment) of a guy in the field, applying camo on a plane with a mop.

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I agree and disagree.  Yes this is a very sloppy line but it is one photo of a single aircraft at a single moment in time.  To extrapolate that to sloppy lines on other birds, is a stretch.  Notice that although the prop is a mess, the checkerboard is perfectly straight and crisp.  All of those lines were field applied because nose art was always applied in the field.
  I am of the opinion that if you are replicating a given aircraft at a given moment in time then yes, that messy line would be necessary to achieve that.  Just don't use this example to say that all lines are sloppy and thus any model with sloppy edges or lines could be correct.  Don't use this as an excuse for poor painting and masking skills.  

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My point was that like with seams, modelers tend to like thinks neat, but that the real world often isn’t. 
 

I remember seeing an F-4 Phantom at Tinker AFB, about 1978, that had the rescue arrow off register. It reminded of a decal sheet I had seen with some off register markings.

Dak

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My understanding is that the pic of Gentile's Mustang spinner above is a case of WEAR, and not ragged painting. As I mentioned above, the 4th FG occasionally had to buy paint from local sources. The white on the spinner is the original prop spinner color for the 4th, and the red was something Gentile had added. The red paint just didn't wear very well, flaking and peeling back to the point seen. There are earlier pics with the spinner being completely red, before it flew so many missions.

Since the original question asked about judging an attempt to replicate that wear, in my mind it boils down to whether the builder can pull off that worn look IN SCALE. Otherwise it probably doesn't impress viewers or judges.

Here is a pic of Shangra La after Gentile pranged it on the field during his last landing before rotating home (possibly on purpose). Note that the spinner had been repainted and is all red!1371947880_ShangriLa.jpg.5ca3c18b41978a84755f1ee576d9fd9c.jpg

 

Gil :cool:

Edited by ghodges
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Well, you may be right, but looking at the base of the prop blade I see what looks like sloppy red paint. It may be a little of both. Not that it really matters.

As I say, my real pout was to note that there are sloppy paint jobs in real life. Just because it is “sloppy” doesn’t always make it wrong. 

Dak

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This model of a normally shiny car brought home a trophy from Seattle Recon 7 back in the late 80s.  Ya never can tell what someone might like.

b 013.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

The secret is documentation. Contest judges don't have hours to debate every subtlety of your model, and don't know every anomaly of every aircraft ever made. It's your job to inform them, not their job to read your mind.

If a detail clearly falls outside the norm, take the time to describe it on the entry form or even better, attach a photo.

Edited by MDriskill
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8 hours ago, MDriskill said:

If a detail clearly falls outside the norm, take the time to describe it on the entry form or even better, attach a photo.

That's all fine if the judges look at the documentation. I've had personal experience where they didn't.

Still, some prefer a pristine model and others prefer a more realistic look. No one should assume the seam or sloppy paint is automatically poor craftsmanship Particularly when it is very obvious.

Dak

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  • 1 month later...

I'm mainly a 1/48 scale WW2 aircraft modeler. As such I have had the "Invasion Stripe" discussion many times with different people. I am firmly on the side of "sloppy work looks sloppy". In 1/48 scale an error of 6 inches is an 1/8 of an inch. Most people can hand paint fairly straight lines over a short distance. In order to have a variance in a line that is detectable at 1/48 scale it would have to be blatent in full scale. Perhaps someone out there will figure out how to pull it off realistically one day but I've never seen any attempt that looked anything but sloppy. 

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Well, part of the problem is there is a tendency for our group to obsess over neatness to the exclusion of all else. Which is why I tend leaning more and more towards just picking the model you like best at a contest, as the best way to judge.

Dak

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Panel lines is another area in which reality -- particularly in used and abused aircraft and used and abused vehicles -- is not at all necessarily neat or aligned or gap free.  But, at scale, most of those interesting variations from perfection disappear from view.  So, in the IPMS world, it has to be "perfect". 

I note also that, when you compare a photo of a model that is blown up to the same visual scale as the real thing, the model is nowhere near as tidy and detailed as the real thing.  It is usually quite unbelievable as a representation of the real thing.  It is a coarse approximation.  But, hey, we do scale models ... not 1:1 models.

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Of course we have to use some yardstick when judging in contests. However, I believe too many become obsessive about things looking neat and clean as a ideal. Too often they try to apply one standard across the board to all subjects and scales.

Dak

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Having judged at the local level, I'm guessing that the basics are the same as at the Nat'l level.   For the longest, basic construction was the starting point for eliminating a model. The finishing items - weathering etc... is way down the line, and it in fact may help those with a more "simpler" approach. If someone highlights all the panel lines, the modeler may reveal that a panel line or two are incomplete. That would be a negative. Another is, and I know I've done this,  is that I rescribe some panel lines that aren't the same depth as the others or are incomplete and oops I scratched off the line, if I don't fix it that's a negative, as is a fix that has gone badly.  And I've had those too.  😉

In the What the Judges Look For seminar (and I suggest everyone refresh themselves by sitting in on it every few years) it's said that the more a person adds, the more chance he has of having a mistake. So a nice clean, simple model can be a winner.

Just my 2¢ .

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6 hours ago, Roktman said:

In the What the Judges Look For seminar (and I suggest everyone refresh themselves by sitting in on it every few years) it's said that the more a person adds, the more chance he has of having a mistake. So, a nice clean, simple model can be a winner.

Absolutely true.

It is usually easy to tell poor craftsmanship from a specific point which is done rough. The problem is some judges don't want to accept this sort of work. Some years in the past, I did some detail work based on personal examination and photos of an 88mm gun at APG, only to have a judge tell me--after the show---he didn't believe the Germans would do work that crude! He was normally aircraft judge. (This is one reason I no longer ask the judges why my work didn't do better.)

Dak

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3 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

Absolutely true.

It is usually easy to tell poor craftsmanship from a specific point which is done rough. The problem is some judges don't want to accept this sort of work. Some years in the past, I did some detail work based on personal examination and photos of an 88mm gun at APG, only to have a judge tell me--after the show---he didn't believe the Germans would do work that crude! He was normally aircraft judge. (This is one reason I no longer ask the judges why my work didn't do better.)

Dak

Hmmm, well that judge certainly did the wrong thing. It sux and sorry that happened to you. If I got an excuse like that I would have brought it the the contest mgr's attention and file a grievance. How would he know the Germans would "never to work like that."  That's BS in my book.

It was quite a while ago that there was a big blow up over a judge knocking an otherwise exquisite plane because he felt "the plane wouldn't have faded to that color" the member painted it.  That was when the rules were reworked to make sure that construction was the top consideration. And that you have to trust the modeler that he did the research and the color he used was the best match, etc...

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Well, as they say, all judging results are final. If you complain, it makes you look petty no matter how right you are. The best yo can do is try to educate people about the subject. 
 

No matter how objective we try too be, personal opinions creep in. Model building it creative and judging anything creative is tricky. Some want a pristine model representing the ideal, while others like things down and dirty. Both tend to see the other extreme as “poor craftsmanship”. 
 

Dak

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It has been pointed out over and over, but it might bear being pointed out one more time.

Judges are volunteers.  If you don't like the judging, volunteer and become one  yourself.  Then, I'm  sure, perfection will ensue.

Besides, the pay rate for judges has nearly doubled over the last three Nats.

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Yes, I judge AND I contribute regularly to the Journal. I have also manned the morning after table and told everyone what they are doing wrong,wrong, wrong. 😉

Still, I saw something last year that made me wonder what some of the judges were thinking. I’m not as interested in why I didn’t win—-I am more than aware of my short comings—-but why some things did. Things I had looked at earlier and dismissed.

But that’s the way it goes. 
 

Dak

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If you have some unusual or special weathering, color, damage, or markings it is always suggested that nothing beats a photo under the model to put judge's minds at ease.

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/27/2022 at 9:45 AM, Dakimbrell said:

Well, as they say, all judging results are final. If you complain, it makes you look petty no matter how right you are. The best yo can do is try to educate people about the subject. 
 

No matter how objective we try too be, personal opinions creep in. Model building it creative and judging anything creative is tricky. Some want a pristine model representing the ideal, while others like things down and dirty. Both tend to see the other extreme as “poor craftsmanship”. 
 

Dak

I agree with you 100%

Chris

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