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New OOB rules


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For 30 years this has been an ongoing debate and I seriously doubt that any change could come anywhere near to being agreed upon by the membership. How many would actually vote?  How long would we debate it? Seems the 30-year debate on OOB showed that. Could we even come to a consensus? I rather doubt it. It would be our version of the 100 years' war. I think going to the membership on this would be like herding cats.

Pat D

Edited by patd
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21 hours ago, 66Foxtrot said:

This should've been voted upon by the membership.

The way things usually go, only 200 would vote, and if approved there'd still be howls of outrage at Omaha that it wasn't advertised enough by the same guys who CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO VOTE! 4000 members, 500 votes for officers, or roughly 12.5% ... which isn't enough to pass an amendment under the old CBL. (10% now)

 

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James

            Agreed. Very few reads the rules, Very few bother to vote , The forums are looked at by only a few but facebook , yeah wars breakout over there.

 

Jim

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At the risk of a civics lesson, there is a difference between a representative and a direct democracy.  In the case of IPMS, members vote for an E-board and the E-board represents them in making decisions.  In a direct democracy, every little IPMS issue would be voted upon by the entire membership.

Ancient Athens had a direct democracy, where voting was a duty, and they had issues getting citizens to vote.  Good luck in having IPMS members show up to vote on any issue, much less vote regularly.

Finally, there is the argument that there is a golden mean ... some issues should be voted on directly by the entire IPMS membership, and some should be handled by the E-board.  However, who decides which issues are which and how direct votes would be handled when time is an issue?

The current system works, even if it doesn't work every time for every member.

 

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Well, this is interesting. Personally I think the E-board/NCC could have squelched all this debate when they first came out with OOB rules: the answer is in the description: NOTHING! When you start allowing things to be added, then everyone is going to try to game the system. If the NCC had held firm to 'NOTHING can be added if it wasn't packed in the box by the manufacturer', then this would not have been an issue. Oh, but what about making something look accurate? Well, as far as I've ever seen, accuracy is not judged in our contests: build techniques are. Another question squelched. These are MODELS! They are representations of real vehicles and structures (and in some cases people). There is no way anyone can make a perfect model, despite many people striving for one (and coming damned close I might add!) But the answer again is also in the name: Out of the Box. Strictly speaking, that means the parts on the sprues only! Not even parts from the instruction sheet unless the instruction sheet has a specific design that they indicate needs to be cut out and applied. In these days of kits including P/E and/or resin parts added by the manufacturer; then they can be added as they are IN THE BOX. Proof is in the instruction sheet. Can I add seatbelts? NO! Unless they are included on the decal sheet or P/E fret! Can I use decals other than those in the box? NO! They didn't come packed in the in the box by the manufacturer so those other decals are not Out of the Box. Can I add rigging to my ship? NO! Unless the kit includes a roll of thread or material for rigging! In other words.... Can I add _______? Answer: Was it in the box and/or included in the kit by the manufacturer? Then NO!

Ever since joining this organization I've always understood OOB meant anything that was included in the box.... period! Because of that I seem to be the only person in this organization that has always built models to the strictest interpretation of this OOB rule as I have outlined it above. Rarely have I added aftermarket additions to my models; but only when someone gifts them to me as I would rather spend my extremely limited funds on more kits than extra parts.

It always mystified me when the NCC said, "you can add this, but only this in this category". So they in effect violated their own rule by making exceptions. Since this class of models has this exception, then can I add____ to mine in this different class? So you see, buy not standing firm on NOTHING outside the box can be used, they started this slippery slope themselves.

 

Can I add this_____? Was it in the box as it came from the manufacturer?

There's your answer.

 

Gee, I'll never understand why everyone has to make this so hard. Regardless of what people finally decide I shall continue to build my models OOB as I interpret the description and I will enter them in the contest wherever they fit. I never expect to ever win; it's all about the camaraderie and friendships and the chance to ask respected friends to check out my work.

 

If I win, that's just cream.

 

Stop asking "What can I add?" and just BUILD IT!! Geez!

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To be, or not to be? That is the question.     ( William Shakespeare )

Is a kit with PE in the box, a not out of the box kit? That is also the question.

I think someone has opened Padora's Box rather than a kit box with this new category.

I have read all the posts. My head hurts. Confusion reigns.

Edited by noelsmith
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Noel

            This is exactly why the change was made. it's not OOB anymore and people have to remember that.

            An Eduard weekend edition kit could be OOB provided you don't add any aftermarket. How is a profi pack kit with the aftermarket included in the kit the same as the weekend kit? It's not. The intent of OOB when the rule was created was to build the kit as they came out in that era because of the falsehood prevailed that you had to add extras to win. By adding the extras in the box is semantics as it doesn't follow the spirit of the creation of the OOB rule. So that's why there is a name change and an attempt to get back to where the original meaning was. Times have changed, kits have changed. So if you can't add Eduard PE to a Eduard Weekend kit for an OOB build but you can add the very same Eduard PE to the same kit just because it came in the box then what's the point? Hence the thrust to get back to the basic attempt. Building basic kits that didn't come with all the bells and whistles.

           Personally I would like to see OOB and now BKB go away since I do not see any reason for it since the logic behind it's very creation was a fallacy. For all those who want to build that way that's fine, enter in the regular categories, you'll do just fine. You don't need extras to win, what you do need is overall execution of construction and finish of your project. 

 

Jim

 

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With all due respect I think if more IPMS members READ the rules carefully and the preamble to the rules defining BKB much of this self-inflicted confusion and frustration would go away.

The rules are written in the King's English and are pretty cut and dried, trying to parse the meaning and find loopholes that are not there is a waste of time.

If anything, the new BKB rules are much clearer than the OOB rules ever were. Basically, if it ain't there or on the instruction sheet you can't add it. Provisions were made for certain cases like some armor or motorcycle models where non-plastic media is used to support the structure or are needed to assemble it (screws & bolts, metal chassis).

No offence intended to anyone, but this is not that hard to build and compete within these rules if one desires to do so.

Pat D

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4 hours ago, noelsmith said:

To be, or not to be? That is the question.     ( William Shakespeare )

Is a kit with PE in the box, a not out of the box kit? That is also the question.

I think someone has opened Padora's Box rather than a kit box with this new category.

...

"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And, by opposing, end them?”   You know, as the quote continues, it becomes more apropos.  I knew my undergrad degree in English Lit would come in handy sometime, somewhere.

The question might have been asked:  "Is a kit with PE in the box, not a BKB kit?"  In almost all cases, the answer would be, "Yes, it is not a BKB kit; it is a regular category kit."

As pointed out multiple times by multiple folks, the BKB concept is simple.  But, this being IPMS, there has been an immediate reaction, boiling down to --"But I want to build it the way I want to build it".  The reply is "Fine. Build it the way you want to build it.  Then enter it into a regular category."  The counter we hear is "But I don't want to enter it into a regular category; I want to enter it as a BKB.  So, there should be a waiver to add/change/delete/modify/adjust the rules.  These are my really good reasons: ________________"

In a serious vein, I think part of this reaction is (again, already pointed out) due to our history with OOB ... where the slope became slippery and some slid down it.  I predict that appeals for exemptions from the BKB rules will continue in the hope that exemptions will again be granted.  And they will continue until the BKB rules are enforced and become routine, or BKB is modified and becomes OOB Mk 2, or until BKB is eliminated. 

Edited by Highlander
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Exemptions have already been be granted: This will pave the way for others to be requested.

"Decals: Decals other than those included with the kit may be used.  They may be used to replace old/damaged/missing kit decals. They may also be used to provide alternative insignia and markings to those originally provided with a kit.

More problems will follow as contestants will ask if this is allowed why not that?

 

 

 

 

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For Highlamder:

Alas poor OOB! I knew him well, David.

A category of infinite problems, of most excellent confusion

It hath borne me on the contest table a thousand times; and now, 

How grand in my imagination it is.

Apologies to Sir William

Pat D

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Well done, sir, well done.

Now get you to the contest table, and tell the judges, let
the PE be an inch thick, to this finish it must
come; make them laugh at that seat belt.

Edited by Highlander
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Glad to see the last two posts are in a light hearted vein!

Some of you guys know more Shakespeare than most! And one referring to the King's English.      Oxford or US? LOL!

BKB and OOB.... Just scrap both and categorise as Kit Detailed and the modeller can build either way and be judged on how well the model is made and painted, not about any other 'stuff' used.

 

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On 2/9/2022 at 1:25 PM, patd said:

I think if more IPMS members READ the rules carefully and the preamble to the rules defining BKB much of this self-inflicted confusion and frustration would go away.

Ay, there’s the rub!

Edited by SkyKing
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To research — to buy.
To build — perchance to enter: ay, there’s the rub!
For in that toil of construct, what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off to the Nats,
BKB must give us pause.

 

Hey, this is fun.  It is so fun, I demand a Shakespearean category ... which will have a BKB option.  One can enter Shakespeare's original remains as BKB ... or embellish them with shrouds and pointy shoes and pen and quill, resin or PE ... as a regular entry.  If you add Anne Hathaway, then it's a vignette.  Include the Globe and its a diorama.

man-in-hamlet-costume-picture-id497983548.jpg

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Alas, poor Yoric has not joined IPMS yet!

Welcome to the world of competitive, argumentative model making!   LOL.

Er, isn't this supposed to be a relaxing, fun hobby to unwind to? 

Me, I'm just a serious modeller who does not take himself too seriously.

Edited by noelsmith
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On 2/9/2022 at 12:17 PM, JClark said:

Noel

            This is exactly why the change was made. it's not OOB anymore and people have to remember that.

            An Eduard weekend edition kit could be OOB provided you don't add any aftermarket. How is a profi pack kit with the aftermarket included in the kit the same as the weekend kit? It's not. The intent of OOB when the rule was created was to build the kit as they came out in that era because of the falsehood prevailed that you had to add extras to win. By adding the extras in the box is semantics as it doesn't follow the spirit of the creation of the OOB rule. So that's why there is a name change and an attempt to get back to where the original meaning was. Times have changed, kits have changed. So if you can't add Eduard PE to a Eduard Weekend kit for an OOB build but you can add the very same Eduard PE to the same kit just because it came in the box then what's the point? Hence the thrust to get back to the basic attempt. Building basic kits that didn't come with all the bells and whistles.

           Personally I would like to see OOB and now BKB go away since I do not see any reason for it since the logic behind it's very creation was a fallacy. For all those who want to build that way that's fine, enter in the regular categories, you'll do just fine. You don't need extras to win, what you do need is overall execution of construction and finish of your project. 

 

Jim

 

Yes. Replaced by exposed internals and not....


You just can't weather anything...


 

maxresdefault.jpg

Edited by AfterburnerDecals
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The Genie has been let out of the bottle !

I don't think that there has ever been such a thing as a week end kit when built by a member of IPMS.

The debate continues ad infinitum!  

Edited by noelsmith
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  • 4 months later...

One last question, I am finishing up a couple of armor kits that have that black “screening” material in it that is used as a engine  screen in the kits. 
would that be allowed? It really adds nothing to the overall finish/detailing of the kit. 
thank you for your assistance,

Mike

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--- and this black "screening" material is or is not the same as the single predominant material as the rest of the kit?

We recently  ran a local contest using BKB/Single Media rules fashioned after the NCC rules.   Several armor entries with nylon screen were disqualified from the BKB category and moved to the regular categories over complaints of I didn't know.

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I just have a quick question that I hope someone can answer. I have asked a few members about this but get a split answer and I apologize if it has been answered and I overlooked it in a previous response. is bare metal foil allowed or not? I know with the new BKB category they are trying to get back to the basics which I understand. And I know they don't want numerous "can we do this or add this" questions. But the only reason I ask is that they say you can add aftermarket decals for various reasons so basically bare metal foil is a decal. I just would like to know if adding bare metal foil to a automotive entry for windshield trim and side trim will knock me out of BKB and put into a regular class. I have entries in both BKB and regular classes but would like to keep a BKB in that class if possible. 

Thanks in advance for any help or answers.

Rocky

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Rocky

            Sec 3. #2.  Paragraph D Finishes> All Painting/Finishing techniques are allowed.

 

HTH

Jim

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Rocky, I agree with you. Foils are like decals, unless they are used as a structural replacement. If one uses a thicker aluminum foil to reshape the model, I'd have so say no, then ask the head judge for a ruling.

The trickiest area would be the use of foils on a spacecraft, where the foil actually changes the structural "look" of the vehicle, like the LM.

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