New OOB rules

[JClark]

All

      Let's not get down in the weeds. I would say a lot of answers can be found in the first paragraph > 

      The spirit of building BKB is two-fold: ● First, to limit yourself to using only those components supplied by the kit makers of older/simpler/less-expensive kits, and yet work to get the best result regardless of any shortcomings in the base kit, such as may exist with its detailing or accuracy. ● Second, to compete at a more basic level, knowing that basic modeling skills are the only difference-maker - not what variety of detailing materials is supplied by the kit manufacturer, nor by aftermarket detailing sets, nor by using more advanced re-building or scratchbuilding skills. The general BKB approach is to build what came in the kit box.

 

   One question , can I enter a Eduard Profi pack kit?... I'll answer with a question>  Is an eduard Profi pack kit and (Older/simpler/less-expensive) kit? I would say no. Seems everyone wants to microscopically examine the wording of the rules and skip over the intent and spirit of the rule as stated in the beginning. Or what can I get away with. We tried to close those doors with the main thrust of the opening sentence, (see above) . 

  Can we have an exception or definition for every possibility that arises? No. And that's what happens,people start trying to skirt around the spirit of the rule. And that's another reason why the class head and over all head judge have to final say. I guess the alternative is to pick a year and say if the kit is made after this year it doesn't qualify. And that you can't ADD ANTHING and can't use anything that can be classified as AFTERMARKET . But I'm only one voice, the NCC has to agree with respects to their particular class.

  Now let's look at logistics. We had 901 Aircraft entries in Las Vegas, 158 of which were OOB/ or the new BKB. I'm lucky that I have a small team to try police the entries but we miss stuff and now we will have to not only look at each one entered but further examine to see if they qualify for BKB. So if the teams find something we missed then chances are they will get moved permitting that the regular category where the entry will land hasn't already been judged or they will be told to bring it next year and enter it in the appropriate regular category. Again all we can do is administer the rules that everyone agreed to by entering. We can't help if the rules are not read. And if they are and still have questions then I'm sure most of the class heads are in the contest room most of the time or can easily be reached.

   Personally I don't see the reason to even have OOB or the new BKB. Its given nothing but troubles for 30 plus years with "what can I do, how close can I come and not cross the rule, what can I get away with, well its in the box top art why can't I add it?" . All the while complaining that the category is needed because the entrants feel they need to add aftermarket to compete. Which has been proven statistically to be a falsehood. 38% of the time when IPMS awarded 1,2,3 and OOB, one of the places was also the OOB so OOB can and has competed with regular entries.  So we try to shut that door and then it's (why can't I add X ?).  So lets get rid of  those 13 OOB/BKB categories and add them to the regular aircraft class categories. It's time has come and gone.  

 

Jim Clark

Head Aircraft Judge

 

 

 

[jcorley]

3 hours ago, patd said:

but I do hope contestants do look at the new rules before starting a build

Good luck with that.

Some don't even bother to read the category cards on the tables!

[patd]

True, it would be a long drive home after finding out you built a model for a non-existent category Yikes!  

[Barry]

Good Lord; how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

That being said, I view this change at this time as "ill-advised". People have built models with the intention of placing them in the OOB category at this year's Nats. They may not realize that the rules have been changed until they arrive at the convention. How difficult would it have been to continue with the old rules for this year and announce at the show (or banquet) that a major change will occur at the next convention. This mid-stream change will royally tick off a number of members. That is something this society does not need, now or ever. 

I have judged at the National for over 20 years. I have NEVER been swayed by the bells and whistles of a super-kit with resin, photo-etch, rubber wheels or whatever. Nor has anyone on any of the teams that I've had the joy of judging with. If you've judged you know this: the basics matter. Photo-etched seat belts, resin bits or added antenna mean nothing. On more than one occasion my team judged a category of 20+ models and find ourselves saying "please let the next one be straight".

An aircraft without seat belts is inaccurate in the most basic way. Ditto for the antenna. Allowing these additions to an OOB entry enabled a very basic build to look acceptable from an accuracy standpoint. No brake lines or open canopies permitted - fine! But I will not build a WWII aircraft with closed canopy and not add belts, so I'm out for the BKB category. 

I'm curious what others think.

 

[MRechlicz]

I have already finished one of my builds for the OOB category before  the new rules came out. 
The kit has pe in it but I did not use it. I built it under last years rules. 
So now what category does it go in? I agree with Barry on this change for this show is ill advised!

Mike

[Bert]

I think the timing announcing, on the 2022 convention website, the elimination of OOB being replaced with a different BKB category was premature. Now being informed here, by the head aircraft judge, I understand his reasoning. However, the announcing of these changes should have been made at the upcoming 2022 convention and then deployed in the 2023 convention.

[Ralph Nardone]

12 hours ago, Barry said:

Good Lord; how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

My thoughts exactly.  When I saw the announcement, my first thought was "How long before the Philadelphia Lawyers come forth with all sorts of questions, having over analyzed these new rules for five minutes?"

Just making observations...

[JClark]

I posted this on the National convention Facebook page. So its easier to copy and paste.  

All...

        OOB is based on a false pretence that you have to add extras to win. That has has NEVER been the case but OOB was created to satisfy the vocal minority. Then as soon as it came out what was the first question? "What can I add?" well are you not getting away from the spirit of the rule then? I did the math as I have every IPMS convention issue of the journal from 1973 forward save for 3 years. In the years when 1,2,3 and OOB were awarded 38% of the time one of the placements was also the OOB winner.

      Then when no sweeps came into effect that had to change since you couldn't have a model winning a place and OOB so that very fact right there proves OOB can does and will compete against models in a regular category. Its time has come and gone. We have created a BKB category to try and save the spirit of the rule which is to build what came in the kit, and not a kit that has all the modern conveniences of resin, photoetch and associated aftermarket that's commonly available. If you read the first sentence in the new rule a lot of questions can be answered. But this is what happens when people try to game the rules and that's what we are trying to get away from.

      I've been in IPMS since 95 and in that time all I have heard is people wondering what is acceptable and what's not. And why is that? Because entrants were allowed to add things to models which is exactly what their complaint was about the regular categories and thus needed another award. I don't get it, which is it? You want to build OOB but still add things? Once you add ANYTHING the slippery slope starts, Well if I can add seat belts and antenna then why not brake lines.

     All BKB is trying to do is get back to the basics for those who want to build that way again based on a falsehood of needed extras to win.

     As Mr. Peterson pointed out rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new. And for those complaining that they have already built models for the old OOB rules and will be in the regular categories then all I can say is see the above statement, IT DOESN"T MATTER!!! . When judged we don't look at those things, its all about Execution, if anything you have a better chance since you have added minimal things to screw up. I 'll also add that 25 weeks before a national I think is plenty of time to adapt to a new rule that in its essence is very similar to the spirit of the original OOB rule.

    Now for some numbers, we had 2,680 models in Las Vegas. 313 were OOB entries, thats 11%. We are having a 30 plus year argument and continual questions about what's allowed since no one can agree and constantly argue about "Why can't I add this if I can add that" for a part of the national contest that accounts for 11%, Really?

 

Jim

[jcorley]

16 hours ago, patd said:

True, it would be a long drive home after finding out you built a model for a non-existent category Yikes!  

I did that once.  I built an extra Aurora AH-56 Cheyenne for the Ancient Kit category/award one year, only to read in the Journal a couple of months before the show that the NCC killed it! At least I read the rules and knew with a little notice. 

[jcorley]

12 hours ago, MRechlicz said:

I have already finished one of my builds for the OOB category before  the new rules came out. 
The kit has pe in it but I did not use it. I built it under last years rules. 
So now what category does it go in? I agree with Barry on this change for this show is ill advised!

Mike

I would say BKB based on your statement. You only used the plastic that came in the kit box, correct?

[MRechlicz]

5 minutes ago, jcorley said:

I would say BKB based on your statement. You only used the plastic that came in the kit box, correct?

Yes.

[jcorley]

It sounds like a Basic Kit Build to me.

[Highlander]

5 hours ago, JClark said:

...

We have created a BKB category to try and save the spirit of the rule which is to build what came in the kit, and not a kit that has all the modern conveniences of resin, photoetch and associated aftermarket that's commonly available. If you read the first sentence in the new rule a lot of questions can be answered. ...

...people wondering what is acceptable and what's not. And why is that? Because entrants were allowed to add things ... which is it? You want to build OOB but still add things? ... Well if I can add seat belts and antenna then why not brake lines.

All BKB is trying to do is get back to the basics for those who want to build that way again...

...rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new. ...

...We are having a 30 plus year argument and continual questions about what's allowed since no one can agree and constantly argue about "Why can't I add this if I can add that" ...

 

Jim

I appreciate your post.  It directly addresses issues that led to the breakdown of OOB and points out the same issues have immediately reappeared with BKB.  I'd like to comment on several portions of your post ... excerpted above.

First, yes, BKB is an attempt to return to the original intent of a simple build ... for those who want to build simply.  It is really that straightforward.

Second, BKB is specifically defined as a category with limitations ... discussed in the rules in detail.  There is clear language that no model has to be entered as a BKB ... it is the entrant's choice.  Thus:

The model builder should note that entering a model in any Basic Kit Build category is their choice. Models in these categories have limitations applied to them that are not applied to entries in the rest of the categories.

If an entrant doesn't want limitations, not to worry.  There are many regular classes that can be entered without BKB limitations.  However, there are no categories that allow a BKB entry  built to each individual modeler's individual druthers ... where one can add whatever they want, for whatever good reason they determine, and call it BKB.

Third, the timing of the release of the 2022 Nats Rules is dependent upon a good deal of effort and coordination and review which occurs behind the scenes.  Which takes time.  As you point out, the timing is normal.  I do empathize with someone who has completed an entry which was up to OOB standards, but is not up to BKB requirements.  The obvious option is to enter into a regular category, which, as you have pointed out, is competitive for a well-built OOB type model.

Fourth, the arguments to expand the limitations, previously, for OOB seem to be continuing for BKB.  Perhaps some of the reaction is based upon a desire to again push the boundaries.  The rules address this impulse:

The general BKB approach is to build what came in the kit box. In some cases, this may result in a perceived incomplete or inaccurate model.  While prior guidelines for out-of-the-box were modified for exceptions/inclusions, the BKB approach will return to “what came in the kit box”. You are not required to make-up for any perceived kit deficiencies/inaccuracies based on detailing accessories.

Thus a standard of accuracy or completion is not applicable to BKB.  And, again, an entrant can build to whatever level of accuracy he wants --- and enter into a regular category.

Thanks for you post.  It helped clarify my thinking and understanding of BKB.  I imagine that, over time, there will be some tweaking -- there always is.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Highlander

[luv2bld]

Ok I have read all the comments on this subject, and I have a question I would like to ask. Most all the comments have referred to planes, ships and a couple military related type kits. Being a mainly automotive builder, I am confused is to whether we would be allowed to use bare metal foil or not. This would also be a concern for the plane guys as well. I know it says they are wanting to get back to what comes in the kit and not use anything like pe and such, even if in the kit. But they do say we can use an aftermarket decal sheet in the new BKB just like we did in OOB to make a different version of what is in the box. But there is no mention of bare metal foil. It looks like if they would allow aftermarket decals than they would still allow bare metal foil as in the past.  I have one I am working on now and one in line to do for out of box and both of course would have bare metal and the one in line has pe in the kit, which I now know will have to go in factory stock due to the pe. But if you build an automotive and don't use bare metal you have a basically a toy looking model. Yes, there are paint alternatives (spas-tix, alclad, molotow, etc.) but they will not do justice to bare metal. So just wondering thoughts on using bare metal or if anyone actually knows if this will be allowed. 

I have to agree with others as well that this change should have been done after Omaha. They possibly could have done a Q&A for an hour or so to go over this new category and answer all these questions everyone has in person. I know what they are trying to accomplish, and I appreciate they are working to make if more uniform and less confusing for this class. But I'm not sure they realized there would be so many scenarios on this. 

[patd]

Rocky , I think you are O.K. with BMF from the BKB basic guidelines:

A.    Finish.  All painting/finishing techniques are allowed.  Insignia, markings, and instrument panels may be hand-painted instead of using decals.  Weathering is permitted.

I think using BMF can be considered a finishing technique.

[Ralph Nardone]

20 hours ago, JClark said:

As Mr. Peterson pointed out rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new.

Jim

Beginning of the year at the earliest. 

If memory serves, the National Rules package for 2016 wasn't complete and ready to post until at least May, maybe later that year--I recall getting a lot of traffic on that subject, as in "When will the rules be released?"  Our answer then, as it is now, is "That's the NCC's baby and when they release them, they'll get published". 

So, Jim is absolutely correct--This is nothing new.

R

[jcorley]

15 hours ago, luv2bld said:

But there is no mention of bare metal foil. It looks like if they would allow aftermarket decals than they would still allow bare metal foil as in the past. 

BMF is treated no differently than paint, when applied as a finished surface.

I think the only way BMF would result in movement to a regular category would be as the use as a structural element, such as insulation batting or blast bags on a ship. But that's just my guess.

[JClark]

Ralph

                  To spin it that your 2016 experience's happen every year or is the norm is just that, Spin. I wasn't on the NCC then so I can't speak to the delay. But it always the aim and goal of the NCC to get the new rules out at the beginning of the year. Case in point, this year there was a delay as the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community where over 600 homes and business were lost in less than 24 hours so I think we all could cut him some slack for having to move out of his home for over week or more  until utilities could be restored which all happened after our final online NCC meeting finalizing the rules. So it took some time to get his life back in order. And I would say we're lucky we got them as early as we did all things considered. Stuff happens, life happens in this all volunteer society. But as I said earlier we all still have 25 weeks to read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.

 

Jim 

[Highlander]

19 minutes ago, JClark said:

... the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community ... it took some time to get his life back in order.

...life happens in this all volunteer society

..read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.

Again --  commenting upon your post.

Elsewhere, I mentioned events in the background influencing the process to revise and publish each National's rules and categories.  Evacuating your home and dealing with the consequences of an inferno is one such example.

Which leads to the trials and tribulations of participating in an all-volunteer society.  Basically, volunteers aren't employees.  And IPMS is a voluntary society, not a business.  In general, the IPMS volunteers (thank God for our judges, at all levels) do as best as is reasonable, as fast as is reasonable.  Failure to achieve perfection immediately is not, IMHO, a reasonable criticism.  There are reasonable criticisms which can be addressed, discussed, and resolved civilly and over time.

Reading the rules?  Reading the categories?  Yes, I'd recommend it.  Most do, a good number don't, and that leads to all sorts of issues.

[Ralph Nardone]

1 hour ago, JClark said:

Ralph

                  To spin it that your 2016 experience's happen every year or is the norm is just that, Spin. I wasn't on the NCC then so I can't speak to the delay. But it always the aim and goal of the NCC to get the new rules out at the beginning of the year. Case in point, this year there was a delay as the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community where over 600 homes and business were lost in less than 24 hours so I think we all could cut him some slack for having to move out of his home for over week or more  until utilities could be restored which all happened after our final online NCC meeting finalizing the rules. So it took some time to get his life back in order. And I would say we're lucky we got them as early as we did all things considered. Stuff happens, life happens in this all volunteer society. But as I said earlier we all still have 25 weeks to read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.

 

Jim 

I used it to point out that the annual version of the rules aren't always ready on 1 January.  Nothing else was intended or needed to be read into it.

Whatever the reason, we were told that the rules are ready when the NCC says they are. 

[MRechlicz]

Ok, I  have read the rules and would like to clarify one small item.

The kit I have selected has a small piece of screening for two small vents. If I read the rules correct, that would be allowed.

There is no pe or other material other than plastic in the box.

Thank you for your help.

Mike

[SkyKing]

As a former editor and sworn officer of the Grammar Police (motto: “To Serve and Correct”), I propose the following definitions:

Kit: What comes in the box/bag

Model/Contest Entry: What goes on the shelf/contest table

(Disclaimer: I am not a National contest judge and was not involved in drafting the BKB rule.)

[JClark]

Ralph

        It's never been a requirement (That I know of) that the NCC are to have rules ready on Jan 1. Many times the host web site isn't even up by then. So they try their best to have them ready at the beginning of the year. Other times its up as soon as the previous convention finishes. It all depends. 

 Mike

       Yes I do believe you would be able to enter it in the new BKB. Again the Spirit of the rule is to eliminate kits that come with parts considered to be aftermarket included to either replace provided parts or just as a addition in a multi media kit.

Jim 

[66Foxtrot]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:52 PM, Mark Deliduka said:

Wow, what an interesting conversation here. I wasn't aware of a new BKB category to replace OOB. I didn't see where it says it, so what does BKB stand for?

Because this was yet another decision made by the few in charge without consulting the paid membership body. This should've been voted upon by the membership.

Edited February 7, 2022 by 66Foxtrot

[JClark]

James

            The NCC makes changes to the rules every year as needed. This is an attempt to clean up the never ending 30 plus year questions of "what can i add to an OOB build" all the while trying to keep to the original concept as flawed as it is. The NCC can't go to the membership everytime they need to amend the rules which is just about every year. This is what the NCC does, it falls in their laps to to write and then administer the rules for the contest.

 

Jim