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New OOB rules


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I have already finished one of my builds for the OOB category before  the new rules came out. 
The kit has pe in it but I did not use it. I built it under last years rules. 
So now what category does it go in? I agree with Barry on this change for this show is ill advised!

Mike

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I think the timing announcing, on the 2022 convention website, the elimination of OOB being replaced with a different BKB category was premature. Now being informed here, by the head aircraft judge, I understand his reasoning. However, the announcing of these changes should have been made at the upcoming 2022 convention and then deployed in the 2023 convention.

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12 hours ago, Barry said:

Good Lord; how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

My thoughts exactly.  When I saw the announcement, my first thought was "How long before the Philadelphia Lawyers come forth with all sorts of questions, having over analyzed these new rules for five minutes?"

Just making observations...

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16 hours ago, patd said:

True, it would be a long drive home after finding out you built a model for a non-existent category Yikes!  

I did that once.  I built an extra Aurora AH-56 Cheyenne for the Ancient Kit category/award one year, only to read in the Journal a couple of months before the show that the NCC killed it! At least I read the rules and knew with a little notice. 

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12 hours ago, MRechlicz said:

I have already finished one of my builds for the OOB category before  the new rules came out. 
The kit has pe in it but I did not use it. I built it under last years rules. 
So now what category does it go in? I agree with Barry on this change for this show is ill advised!

Mike

I would say BKB based on your statement. You only used the plastic that came in the kit box, correct?

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5 hours ago, JClark said:

...

We have created a BKB category to try and save the spirit of the rule which is to build what came in the kit, and not a kit that has all the modern conveniences of resin, photoetch and associated aftermarket that's commonly available. If you read the first sentence in the new rule a lot of questions can be answered. ...

...people wondering what is acceptable and what's not. And why is that? Because entrants were allowed to add things ... which is it? You want to build OOB but still add things? ... Well if I can add seat belts and antenna then why not brake lines.

All BKB is trying to do is get back to the basics for those who want to build that way again...

...rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new. ...

...We are having a 30 plus year argument and continual questions about what's allowed since no one can agree and constantly argue about "Why can't I add this if I can add that" ...

 

Jim

I appreciate your post.  It directly addresses issues that led to the breakdown of OOB and points out the same issues have immediately reappeared with BKB.  I'd like to comment on several portions of your post ... excerpted above.

First, yes, BKB is an attempt to return to the original intent of a simple build ... for those who want to build simply.  It is really that straightforward.

Second, BKB is specifically defined as a category with limitations ... discussed in the rules in detail.  There is clear language that no model has to be entered as a BKB ... it is the entrant's choice.  Thus:

The model builder should note that entering a model in any Basic Kit Build category is their choice. Models in these categories have limitations applied to them that are not applied to entries in the rest of the categories.

If an entrant doesn't want limitations, not to worry.  There are many regular classes that can be entered without BKB limitations.  However, there are no categories that allow a BKB entry  built to each individual modeler's individual druthers ... where one can add whatever they want, for whatever good reason they determine, and call it BKB.

Third, the timing of the release of the 2022 Nats Rules is dependent upon a good deal of effort and coordination and review which occurs behind the scenes.  Which takes time.  As you point out, the timing is normal.  I do empathize with someone who has completed an entry which was up to OOB standards, but is not up to BKB requirements.  The obvious option is to enter into a regular category, which, as you have pointed out, is competitive for a well-built OOB type model.

Fourth, the arguments to expand the limitations, previously, for OOB seem to be continuing for BKB.  Perhaps some of the reaction is based upon a desire to again push the boundaries.  The rules address this impulse:

The general BKB approach is to build what came in the kit box. In some cases, this may result in a perceived incomplete or inaccurate model.  While prior guidelines for out-of-the-box were modified for exceptions/inclusions, the BKB approach will return to “what came in the kit box”. You are not required to make-up for any perceived kit deficiencies/inaccuracies based on detailing accessories.

Thus a standard of accuracy or completion is not applicable to BKB.  And, again, an entrant can build to whatever level of accuracy he wants --- and enter into a regular category.

Thanks for you post.  It helped clarify my thinking and understanding of BKB.  I imagine that, over time, there will be some tweaking -- there always is.

 

Edited by Highlander
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Ok I have read all the comments on this subject, and I have a question I would like to ask. Most all the comments have referred to planes, ships and a couple military related type kits. Being a mainly automotive builder, I am confused is to whether we would be allowed to use bare metal foil or not. This would also be a concern for the plane guys as well. I know it says they are wanting to get back to what comes in the kit and not use anything like pe and such, even if in the kit. But they do say we can use an aftermarket decal sheet in the new BKB just like we did in OOB to make a different version of what is in the box. But there is no mention of bare metal foil. It looks like if they would allow aftermarket decals than they would still allow bare metal foil as in the past.  I have one I am working on now and one in line to do for out of box and both of course would have bare metal and the one in line has pe in the kit, which I now know will have to go in factory stock due to the pe. But if you build an automotive and don't use bare metal you have a basically a toy looking model. Yes, there are paint alternatives (spas-tix, alclad, molotow, etc.) but they will not do justice to bare metal. So just wondering thoughts on using bare metal or if anyone actually knows if this will be allowed. 

I have to agree with others as well that this change should have been done after Omaha. They possibly could have done a Q&A for an hour or so to go over this new category and answer all these questions everyone has in person. I know what they are trying to accomplish, and I appreciate they are working to make if more uniform and less confusing for this class. But I'm not sure they realized there would be so many scenarios on this. 

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Rocky , I think you are O.K. with BMF from the BKB basic guidelines:

A.    Finish.  All painting/finishing techniques are allowed.  Insignia, markings, and instrument panels may be hand-painted instead of using decals.  Weathering is permitted.

I think using BMF can be considered a finishing technique.

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20 hours ago, JClark said:

As Mr. Peterson pointed out rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new.

Jim

Beginning of the year at the earliest. 

If memory serves, the National Rules package for 2016 wasn't complete and ready to post until at least May, maybe later that year--I recall getting a lot of traffic on that subject, as in "When will the rules be released?"  Our answer then, as it is now, is "That's the NCC's baby and when they release them, they'll get published". 

So, Jim is absolutely correct--This is nothing new.

R

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15 hours ago, luv2bld said:

But there is no mention of bare metal foil. It looks like if they would allow aftermarket decals than they would still allow bare metal foil as in the past. 

BMF is treated no differently than paint, when applied as a finished surface.

I think the only way BMF would result in movement to a regular category would be as the use as a structural element, such as insulation batting or blast bags on a ship. But that's just my guess.

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19 minutes ago, JClark said:

... the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community ... it took some time to get his life back in order.

...life happens in this all volunteer society

..read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.

Again --  commenting upon your post.

Elsewhere, I mentioned events in the background influencing the process to revise and publish each National's rules and categories.  Evacuating your home and dealing with the consequences of an inferno is one such example.

Which leads to the trials and tribulations of participating in an all-volunteer society.  Basically, volunteers aren't employees.  And IPMS is a voluntary society, not a business.  In general, the IPMS volunteers (thank God for our judges, at all levels) do as best as is reasonable, as fast as is reasonable.  Failure to achieve perfection immediately is not, IMHO, a reasonable criticism.  There are reasonable criticisms which can be addressed, discussed, and resolved civilly and over time.

Reading the rules?  Reading the categories?  Yes, I'd recommend it.  Most do, a good number don't, and that leads to all sorts of issues.

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1 hour ago, JClark said:

Ralph

                  To spin it that your 2016 experience's happen every year or is the norm is just that, Spin. I wasn't on the NCC then so I can't speak to the delay. But it always the aim and goal of the NCC to get the new rules out at the beginning of the year. Case in point, this year there was a delay as the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community where over 600 homes and business were lost in less than 24 hours so I think we all could cut him some slack for having to move out of his home for over week or more  until utilities could be restored which all happened after our final online NCC meeting finalizing the rules. So it took some time to get his life back in order. And I would say we're lucky we got them as early as we did all things considered. Stuff happens, life happens in this all volunteer society. But as I said earlier we all still have 25 weeks to read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.

 

Jim 

I used it to point out that the annual version of the rules aren't always ready on 1 January.  Nothing else was intended or needed to be read into it.

Whatever the reason, we were told that the rules are ready when the NCC says they are. 

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Ok, I  have read the rules and would like to clarify one small item.

The kit I have selected has a small piece of screening for two small vents. If I read the rules correct, that would be allowed.

There is no pe or other material other than plastic in the box.

Thank you for your help.

Mike

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As a former editor and sworn officer of the Grammar Police (motto: “To Serve and Correct”), I propose the following definitions:

Kit: What comes in the box/bag

Model/Contest Entry: What goes on the shelf/contest table

(Disclaimer: I am not a National contest judge and was not involved in drafting the BKB rule.)

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On 2/4/2022 at 2:52 PM, Mark Deliduka said:

Wow, what an interesting conversation here. I wasn't aware of a new BKB category to replace OOB. I didn't see where it says it, so what does BKB stand for?

Because this was yet another decision made by the few in charge without consulting the paid membership body. This should've been voted upon by the membership.

Edited by 66Foxtrot
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For 30 years this has been an ongoing debate and I seriously doubt that any change could come anywhere near to being agreed upon by the membership. How many would actually vote?  How long would we debate it? Seems the 30-year debate on OOB showed that. Could we even come to a consensus? I rather doubt it. It would be our version of the 100 years' war. I think going to the membership on this would be like herding cats.

Pat D

Edited by patd
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21 hours ago, 66Foxtrot said:

This should've been voted upon by the membership.

The way things usually go, only 200 would vote, and if approved there'd still be howls of outrage at Omaha that it wasn't advertised enough by the same guys who CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO VOTE! 4000 members, 500 votes for officers, or roughly 12.5% ... which isn't enough to pass an amendment under the old CBL. (10% now)

 

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At the risk of a civics lesson, there is a difference between a representative and a direct democracy.  In the case of IPMS, members vote for an E-board and the E-board represents them in making decisions.  In a direct democracy, every little IPMS issue would be voted upon by the entire membership.

Ancient Athens had a direct democracy, where voting was a duty, and they had issues getting citizens to vote.  Good luck in having IPMS members show up to vote on any issue, much less vote regularly.

Finally, there is the argument that there is a golden mean ... some issues should be voted on directly by the entire IPMS membership, and some should be handled by the E-board.  However, who decides which issues are which and how direct votes would be handled when time is an issue?

The current system works, even if it doesn't work every time for every member.

 

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Well, this is interesting. Personally I think the E-board/NCC could have squelched all this debate when they first came out with OOB rules: the answer is in the description: NOTHING! When you start allowing things to be added, then everyone is going to try to game the system. If the NCC had held firm to 'NOTHING can be added if it wasn't packed in the box by the manufacturer', then this would not have been an issue. Oh, but what about making something look accurate? Well, as far as I've ever seen, accuracy is not judged in our contests: build techniques are. Another question squelched. These are MODELS! They are representations of real vehicles and structures (and in some cases people). There is no way anyone can make a perfect model, despite many people striving for one (and coming damned close I might add!) But the answer again is also in the name: Out of the Box. Strictly speaking, that means the parts on the sprues only! Not even parts from the instruction sheet unless the instruction sheet has a specific design that they indicate needs to be cut out and applied. In these days of kits including P/E and/or resin parts added by the manufacturer; then they can be added as they are IN THE BOX. Proof is in the instruction sheet. Can I add seatbelts? NO! Unless they are included on the decal sheet or P/E fret! Can I use decals other than those in the box? NO! They didn't come packed in the in the box by the manufacturer so those other decals are not Out of the Box. Can I add rigging to my ship? NO! Unless the kit includes a roll of thread or material for rigging! In other words.... Can I add _______? Answer: Was it in the box and/or included in the kit by the manufacturer? Then NO!

Ever since joining this organization I've always understood OOB meant anything that was included in the box.... period! Because of that I seem to be the only person in this organization that has always built models to the strictest interpretation of this OOB rule as I have outlined it above. Rarely have I added aftermarket additions to my models; but only when someone gifts them to me as I would rather spend my extremely limited funds on more kits than extra parts.

It always mystified me when the NCC said, "you can add this, but only this in this category". So they in effect violated their own rule by making exceptions. Since this class of models has this exception, then can I add____ to mine in this different class? So you see, buy not standing firm on NOTHING outside the box can be used, they started this slippery slope themselves.

 

Can I add this_____? Was it in the box as it came from the manufacturer?

There's your answer.

 

Gee, I'll never understand why everyone has to make this so hard. Regardless of what people finally decide I shall continue to build my models OOB as I interpret the description and I will enter them in the contest wherever they fit. I never expect to ever win; it's all about the camaraderie and friendships and the chance to ask respected friends to check out my work.

 

If I win, that's just cream.

 

Stop asking "What can I add?" and just BUILD IT!! Geez!

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To be, or not to be? That is the question.     ( William Shakespeare )

Is a kit with PE in the box, a not out of the box kit? That is also the question.

I think someone has opened Padora's Box rather than a kit box with this new category.

I have read all the posts. My head hurts. Confusion reigns.

Edited by noelsmith
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With all due respect I think if more IPMS members READ the rules carefully and the preamble to the rules defining BKB much of this self-inflicted confusion and frustration would go away.

The rules are written in the King's English and are pretty cut and dried, trying to parse the meaning and find loopholes that are not there is a waste of time.

If anything, the new BKB rules are much clearer than the OOB rules ever were. Basically, if it ain't there or on the instruction sheet you can't add it. Provisions were made for certain cases like some armor or motorcycle models where non-plastic media is used to support the structure or are needed to assemble it (screws & bolts, metal chassis).

No offence intended to anyone, but this is not that hard to build and compete within these rules if one desires to do so.

Pat D

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4 hours ago, noelsmith said:

To be, or not to be? That is the question.     ( William Shakespeare )

Is a kit with PE in the box, a not out of the box kit? That is also the question.

I think someone has opened Padora's Box rather than a kit box with this new category.

...

"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And, by opposing, end them?”   You know, as the quote continues, it becomes more apropos.  I knew my undergrad degree in English Lit would come in handy sometime, somewhere.

The question might have been asked:  "Is a kit with PE in the box, not a BKB kit?"  In almost all cases, the answer would be, "Yes, it is not a BKB kit; it is a regular category kit."

As pointed out multiple times by multiple folks, the BKB concept is simple.  But, this being IPMS, there has been an immediate reaction, boiling down to --"But I want to build it the way I want to build it".  The reply is "Fine. Build it the way you want to build it.  Then enter it into a regular category."  The counter we hear is "But I don't want to enter it into a regular category; I want to enter it as a BKB.  So, there should be a waiver to add/change/delete/modify/adjust the rules.  These are my really good reasons: ________________"

In a serious vein, I think part of this reaction is (again, already pointed out) due to our history with OOB ... where the slope became slippery and some slid down it.  I predict that appeals for exemptions from the BKB rules will continue in the hope that exemptions will again be granted.  And they will continue until the BKB rules are enforced and become routine, or BKB is modified and becomes OOB Mk 2, or until BKB is eliminated. 

Edited by Highlander
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Exemptions have already been be granted: This will pave the way for others to be requested.

"Decals: Decals other than those included with the kit may be used.  They may be used to replace old/damaged/missing kit decals. They may also be used to provide alternative insignia and markings to those originally provided with a kit.

More problems will follow as contestants will ask if this is allowed why not that?

 

 

 

 

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