New OOB rules

[MRechlicz]

I have a question concerning the new rules. What if you do not use the pe, metal barrel or anything other non plastic parts provided in the kit. 
Can you still enter it in the OOB category?

Thank you,

Mike

[Highlander]

Actually, there aren't any new OOB rules.  The old OOB rules have been replaced by the new BKB rules.

I leave the question above to be answered by those more knowledgeable.  My guess is "Yes" -- if you have a plastic part in a predominately plastic kit you can probably use it.  So, if you have both a metal gun barrel and a plastic gun barrel in the kit, you can use the plastic barrel and enter as a BKB.  The key, it appears, is building with a "single material".  Questions, I wager, can be resolved using the instructions placed with one's BKB entry and by being addressed to the appropriate judge.

From the BKB rules:

Kits. ... the kit is constructed as a predominantly single-medium product. It can consist of an all-polystyrene kit, an all-resin kit, an all-photoetch kit, or any other ‘single’ material. Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted.

[EFGrune]

My position is, a model kit which contains PE, resin, cast or turned metal, 3D printed, and/or other material parts for which there are analogous parts in the majority material of the kit, the kit MAY be entered in a BKB category if ONLY the analogous parts are used.   If there are NO corresponding analogous parts, the kit may not be entered in a BKB category.    Choosing to enter a kit in a BKB category is up to the individual

Example: If your battleship kit comes with both plastic main gun barrels and turned gun barrels and you choose to assemble the kit using the plastic gun barrels it may be entered in BKB category.  If you choose to use the turned barrels or the kit does not contain plastic barrels it may not be entered in BKB.

Providing a copy of the instructions is still a requirement for BKB.

Your attention is directed to the next to the last paragraph in section III.1 "All Class Head Judges and the Chief Judge will have final say as to what is permitted for any BKB entries within their Classes."

Ed Grune NCC Head Ship Judge

 

 

[ShutterAce]

6 minutes ago, EFGrune said:

Your attention is directed to the next to the last paragraph in section III.1 "All Class Head Judges and the Chief Judge will have final say as to what is permitted for any BKB entries within their Classes."

And there lies the slippery slope.

[Highlander]

Don't know how slippery the slope is.  In any endeavor, there needs to be a final arbitrar when an ambiguity arises.  It will take a couple of years for the new BKB category to become familiar to entrants.

I offer that the BKB category is a positive step away from the endless gaming of the old OOB rules.

[patd]

NO. I think such a kit will be disqualified. From the rules: 

.  Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. 

Note the word 'Included" so the kit is not eligible, even if you do not use those parts. IF you want to add a seat belt that in not included in the kit as a decal, it is not allowed. No paper or tape belts allowed any longer.

Anything added like rigging or antenna MUST be shown in the instructions

A.  "  ... and add rigging and antennas, if shown on the kit’s instructions. " 

●  Aircraft models aren’t required to have antennas, rigging wires, seatbelts, nor can they be added unless they’re included or noted in kit instructions.

Persons wishing to enter BKB should take a good read if the new rules before proceeding down this path. For example, the new Tamiya Spitfire is not eligible  (P/E included) but certain Eduard Weekend kits are as they have no P/E added or other non plastic materials. Some even include decal seat belts.

BKB rules are much more restrictive than the OOB rules were. 

Pat D

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by patd

[Highlander]

Valid observation.  Reading the rules is always a good idea.

It will probably take a couple of contests for the rules to shake out.  

Edited February 3, 2022 by Highlander

[patd]

Agreed! If any glacial rate builders (like me!) want to get into this new category an early read would be helpful, before proceeding. I had a potential OOB model almost ready to paint but after reading the rules I had to shelve it as it is not eligible for BKB. It was an Arma FM-2 however it can still go into the general category, but I was specifically building it under OOB rules until I read the new rules which disqualified it for the new BKB category.

Edited February 3, 2022 by patd

[jcorley]

10 hours ago, EFGrune said:

Example: If your battleship kit comes with both plastic main gun barrels and turned gun barrels... [SNIP]

 

Think of it like this:

New Eduard Super Duper USS Arizona = regular category

Old Banner USS Arizona = BKB

(Same plastic, more "goodies")

Is that the right comparison, Ed?

[EFGrune]

10 hours ago, jcorley said:

Think of it like this:

New Eduard Super Duper USS Arizona = regular category

Old Banner USS Arizona = BKB

(Same plastic, more "goodies")

Is that the right comparison, Ed?

That’s it in a nutshell.  I have the Takom/Snowman 700 scale Gearing on the bench right now. It comes with both injected MK37 radars and PE ones.   If I stay with the injected parts I’m golden for BKB.  If I use the PE I go to the regular category. 
 

 

[patd]

Ed,

I do not understand this. The rules say if P/E etc. is INCLUDED the kit is ineligible for BKB. From the new BKB rules...

 Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. 

I take the word "KIT" & "INCLUDED"" to mean what is in the box not what is in the completed model

What am I missing here?

Thanks,

Pat

Edited February 4, 2022 by patd

[ShutterAce]

2 hours ago, EFGrune said:

That’s it in a nutshell.  I have the Takom/Snowman 700 scale Gearing on the bench right now. It comes with both injected MK37 radars and PE ones.   If I stay with the injected parts I’m golden for BKB.  If I use the PE I go to the regular category. 
 

 

No that's not the way the rule reads to me. I agree with patd. The model kit is disqualified because it includes the parts in the box. That is what the rule says. However, you are the head ship judge and have the authority to do as you please according to the rules. This is the slippery slope I have referenced before.

[MRechlicz]

So, if the box says included BUT I do not use the parts I cannot enter it in the BKB category! I personally do not use pe when I do not have to. 
That is why I enter the BKB categories. 

Mike

Edited February 4, 2022 by MRechlicz

[patd]

That is the way I see the rule written, Michael. 

If I use a new Tamiya Spitfire or Eduard Zero which includes P/E it is not eligible, but if I use a bare bones Eduard weekend kit with just plastic and decals I am in good shape for BKB.

Pat

[ShutterAce]

7 minutes ago, MRechlicz said:

So, if the box says included BUT I do not use the parts I cannot enter it in the BKB category! I personally do not use pe when I do not have to. 
That is why I enter the BKB categories. 

Mike

That is the way the rule reads to me. Granted I was always better at math than grammar but it seems pretty plain.

Now the intention may have been different, but it says what it says.

[Nortley]

A 1/12 scale motorcycle kit builds up as a few plastic sub assemblies which are then assembled with metal screws.  While the screws are structural, not detail parts, the little phillips heads are visible when the model is completed.  Mixed media?

[patd]

No that is allowed:

From the rules.

As a general guideline, kit parts that are necessary to complete and support the overall structure of the completed model are allowed.  However, other kit parts that provide enhanced surface-detailing to a completed model will not be allowed for a BKB entry.

A.    Examples of other material parts that will be allowed are: kit-supplied vacuum-formed windscreens/canopies/windows for Aircraft and Automotive models; kit-supplied rubber/vinyl tires and poly-caps to retain wheels and/or parts attached to pylons; metal gearboxes and/or metal-rod axles for Armor and Automotive models.

Edited February 4, 2022 by patd

[Highlander]

It appears to me that the definition of "kit" is contributing to this discussion.  Is a kit all the stuff that is included in the box ... or is a kit the thing that is entered into a contest?  The term "kit", as used by many modelers, can be applied to both.  As in, "I'm going to buy a kit" and "I entered my kit this morning". 

It also appears that it will take a while for entrants to move their thinking from the old OOB -- which includes the word "box" -- to the new BKB -- which addresses the build.  BKB, IMHO, addresses the build, not the box.

Let's look at the obvious example.  I have two kits (the things in two boxes).  One is an Eduard Weekend Edition, the other an Eduard Profipack.  The plastic in the two kits is exactly identical.  Is anyone going to seriously argue that, if the two kits (built models) resulting from the two builds use only the identical plastic parts, then the Wekend Edititon is a BKB but the Profipack is not?

So, as Ed points out, if one doesn't build using disqualifying parts, then one has a BKB.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Highlander

[patd]

You may have a point here, David. I am just quoting the rules and in the beginning of the rule change where the reasons for BKB are laid out we have this: 

●  Second, to compete at a more basic level, knowing that basic modeling skills are the only difference-maker - not what variety of detailing materials is supplied by the kit manufacturer, nor by after-market detailing sets, nor by using more advanced re-building or scratch-building skills.

IF the NCC defines 'KIT" as the unbuilt model in the box OR if it means the completed "KIT" on the table then we have an answer with regard to not using extra goodies in the box.

If I may be precise, the definition of a kit from Merriam-Webster

 a set of parts to be assembled or worked 

So when the rules say a kit I take it to be the unassembled contents of a kit box not the completed item on the contest table

Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. 

Perhaps someone from the NCC can elaborate on this matter? 

On a more personal level when we do the splits:  if the instructions show P/E then will the vetting/judging teams will have to ascertain if only the plastic parts were used, or will there be a disclaimer on the entry sheet?

Interestingly some highly detailed kits are available for BKB on the aircraft end, the Tamiya P-38 and F-14 come to mind, no etch or resin included. Weekend kits in most case would also qualify, and they have decal seat belts to boot.

Pat

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by patd

[PeteJ]

So far from this discussion, it seems that very little has been solved by this "new" class.  I understand what the NCC is trying to do, but it will never be a "fair" evaluation of building skill only as long as there is such a significant variation in the quality of kits available.    The only true way to eliminate all this is to have a single kit class.  Pick out one readily available kit for each class(aircraft, ship, auto, armor, and scifi) and let the building begin.  Forget all the other hogwash.  Way to complicated and full of loopholes and definitions.  

[EFGrune]

The examples which I have given are ship-related and I have given my position with respect to BKB as it relates to the Ship class.   I do not want to get out too far ahead of Mark, Jim, or any of the other Head Judges.

However, there are problems with reading the rules as an absolute.  The individual Head Judges must be given an amount of latitude.     I give you the Eduard weekend edition P-51D kit reviewed in today's Hyperscale.   OMG! the kit includes a PE fret with 5 numbered parts.   Disqualified!  Now, go to the Eduard website and pull up the instructions. You will see that parts PE1 and PE2 are scribing templates.  The instructions have you filling several access panels and since scribing lost panel lines is allowed, I take this as an acceptable use of PE.  The PE is not a final detail on the entry.  The remaining PE parts are several options for RWR stub antennas on the vertical fin.   If you don't use them, it is still a single media entry within the spirit of BKB.   If you do use them, go play in the regular categories. 

You can also see why providing the instructions is important.

I always attempt to use the term "kit" as the items to be assembled and "entry" as the completed item on the table. YMMV

Ed Grune NCC Head Ship Judge

 

[Mark Deliduka]

Wow, what an interesting conversation here. I wasn't aware of a new BKB category to replace OOB. I didn't see where it says it, so what does BKB stand for?

 

In my opinion poor as it is; I would say a "kit" is the unassembled model in a box as per Merriam-Webster dictionary definition. While some people may say "I entered my kit this morning", I would call that an incorrect wording on the part of thew speaker. They should say ""I entered my model this morning" instead since the resulting construction and painting of the parts in a "kit" would be considered a model instead. Then again, I'm no grammarian, so my opinion doesn't matter so much and each person has a different interpretation of the word "kit". After all this is only my interpretation of the wording used here. Maybe the NCC should define the terms used in the rules more specifically when they write up new or revised rules so that everyone understands them and is on the same page. I would think that would greatly reduce the amount of questions and conjecture about what the new or revised rules are really saying as is happening here.

If the new BKB rules are saying that the only thing that can be used are the plastic parts in a box of model kit sprues, then I would say that I always understood; and built my models accordingly, that this was the original intent for OOB in the first place.

 

Anyway, it should be interesting to see how this shakes out. Given that I don't ever expect to attend another Nationals in the foreseeable future, I don't have a dog in this show. I will still follow this closely anyway since this discussion is so intriguing.

[patd]

1 hour ago, EFGrune said:

The examples which I have given are ship-related and I have given my position with respect to BKB as it relates to the Ship class.   I do not want to get out too far ahead of Mark, Jim, or any of the other Head Judges.

However, there are problems with reading the rules as an absolute.  The individual Head Judges must be given an amount of latitude.     I give you the Eduard weekend edition P-51D kit reviewed in today's Hyperscale.   OMG! the kit includes a PE fret with 5 numbered parts.   Disqualified!  Now, go to the Eduard website and pull up the instructions. You will see that parts PE1 and PE2 are scribing templates.  The instructions have you filling several access panels and since scribing lost panel lines is allowed, I take this as an acceptable use of PE.  The PE is not a final detail on the entry.  The remaining PE parts are several options for RWR stub antennas on the vertical fin.   If you don't use them, it is still a single media entry within the spirit of BKB.   If you do use them, go play in the regular categories. 

You can also see why providing the instructions is important.

I always attempt to use the term "kit" as the items to be assembled and "entry" as the completed item on the table. YMMV

Ed Grune NCC Head Ship Judge

 

I understand what you are saying Ed, all I am pointing out is that the rules say:

 "kit" which  I agree is an unassembled item.

Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted. 

My hope is that all this is clarified before too long, I shelved an OOB (BKB) kit because the kit had P/E which in effect eliminated one of my entries, with the way I read the rules, the 'Nats will soon be here in 5 months and some of us build more slowly.

Also, as one who works with the split teams in A/C the more clarification the better when we have to decide if an entry is eligible under the BKB rules. I fear some will show up at the contest still thinking OOB rules are still valid, true, ignorance of the rules is no excuse, but I do hope contestants do look at the new rules before starting a build, as to not show up for a disappointment.

Best,

Pat

 

[AcesHigh]

And theres the question of if you do allow a kit that has some PE in it and go by the word of the person that they only used the plastic parts instead, how can that be totally proven correct without scraping off the paint?  Of course some parts as in PE belts and others are obvious but not all parts will stand out as much making it difficult to tell what all may have been used. 

[jcorley]

8 hours ago, ShutterAce said:

The model kit is disqualified because it includes the parts in the box.

Your take would be true, had they not "renamed" the category.

Try so see it this way. (It's what I inferred):

OOB is gone, kaput, forever dead and buried (well, there might be an OOB zombie category with enoughbacklash)