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Yes, you never know what will show up! In 2017, I thought dioramas would be mine,¬†all mine! ūüėúHowever, I got lost in the crowd ---which was in the middle of the room, btw.

I realize how hard the contest guys work to put on a show and in general they do an excellent job. I just think, over the past 45 years, there has been a tendency to think of dioramas as sort of a secondary, even lesser thing. To the hardcore diorama builders, seeing them as miscellaneous is a bit like putting all aircraft types in the same category. Hey, it flies, so they are all the same, right. It just seems some categories like 1/72nd Soft-skins would do find against the wall and don't need to be in the middle regardless where the number comes in the cue.

Someday, I would like to see a triathlon for dioramas.

Dak

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Dak, Dioramas are NOT in the Misc Class. They have their own separate class. So to try and say they are less important or looked upon in a lesser degree because they are lumped in with Misc would be an incorrect assumption. 

  We all have our personal preferences, and interests in the contest room . I like it all but you have to acknowledge some don't and will passover whatever dosnt flip their switch. So to say (your) personal favorites are being disrespected ( my inteupetation of what you're saying) for me is a bit of a stretch solely based on where they may be located in a contest room based on numerous factors which we have allready discussed . 

   In the end why do some care where models are placed?  go in and enjoy all of them. I would say don't read to much into class placement since circumstances may dictate otherwise..

 

Jim

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Jim,

My apologies. I am well aware that dioramas are not in miscellaneous. If you look back at an earlier post in the string you will see I corrected someone who said they were. I was merely speaking in general about the society. 
You are correct that many see their pet subjects as marginalized, however, my opinion is based on 40 odd years of model contests and other activities. 
I don’t expect everyone to agree, but perhaps my remarks will give some food for thought.

I have had more than one conversation with people‚ÄĒsome in this very¬†string‚ÄĒ-who have implied they think dioramas or even a scenic base are nothing but an attempt to cover up poor work on the model.

I feel dioramas are the pinnacle of modeling work because it requires such a wide skill range to do a good one. That they come way down the category list shows others consider them a bit of an afterthought.

I do not expect the guys in Las Vegas to change everything. My only purpose here was and is to politely encourage some changes down the line.

Dak

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DAK

       Ok, changes to make people like dioramas more?   

       You speak of 40 plus years of experience,  ok well 40 years ago the society  was already 17 years old.  Things had been set motion. Sure things evelove and I believe that dioramas are a direct result of that evolution but you have to admit they weren't very popular in the begining.I get your point and they are now included but it's like you're wanting special treatment for them. Re-numbering the classes? mandating they always be front and center at National conventions thus possibly pushing out others favorites? What exactly do you propose?

   At the end of the day I do believe  we do not want to go down a path of perfrerential treatment for any category. And if I am understanding you correctly this is what you have in mind?

 

Jim

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Actually, I believe they were always popular, just that not many entered them. The rules changed after 2011 tightening up on scenic bases. In its first twenty years, IPMS was extremely aerocentric. Everything that wasn’t an airplane was looked down upon. One could argue always putting aircraft on the top of the list is special treatment. But that is not the issue.

Nor am I suggesting re-numbering the categories. I used the number to support my contention that dioramas were sort of an afterthought in the overall planning.

Now days, we often force some models into dioramas because of the rules and these models often get shoved out of sight behind bigger dioramas. Again, I am not questioning the rules for dioramas, merely noting we do move stuff there from other categories.

I’m not asking for special treatment. I am merely suggesting everyone would be better served with dioramas out where they can be viewed from more angles. We want people to look at the models, right? It just makes more sense to put small stuff against a wall than big things. Even if you put them to the side or back, consider leaving space for people to walk around them.

If it was me, I would treat all entries that require a power hookup to be placed in a special location regardless of subject matter because those truly are a small minority of entries.

I actually think you guys are making much more out of this than me. I only posted a suggestion and accepted the response merely saying I hope future shows will be more thoughtful about getting the dioramas out where they could be seen better. That is one complaint I have heard¬†from many people ‚ÄúI wish we could see the dioramas¬†better‚ÄĚ.

I’m sorry if I’ve run amuck terrifying the villagers.

Dak

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Dak

       As we have talked about it may not be possible to always put dio's up front . Local chapters are at the mercy of the venues as to where power is required. You say putting everything that needs power in one spot. So now you are asking judges to pull entries out of their categories (Not just Dio's) to put in one spot. You could in theory have a low or high number in one spot from a multitude of categories. That makes judging very difficult since now judges who are looking at one category would now have to go look for something that "May" be in the powered section? It becomes a logistical nightmare for judging. Its bad enough when we have to split out individual entries that don't physically fit into their categories as it is now, let alone add another caveat of power. Another consideration is where is the power drop in relation to the table layout? is it under the tables or is it in the middle of the isles? it may not be possible to always align table rows so that your power drops are under tables to avoid tripping hazards. 

     You're not terrifying the villagers but there is alot to consider when making these kind of requests. I am sure most chapters who do host the convention/contest do they best they can with what they have to work with taking into consideration all aspects. Especially the chapters that have done it multiple times. 

 

Jim

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You are being pedantic. I’ve merely made suggestions. I have been around contests long enough to realize venues dictate layout as much as anything. Still, the hosts need to consider these things and if no one says anything, we go on the same old way. 

Your argument that putting all entries needing power in one spot is a logistical nightmare is spurious. What happens if someone enters an airplane with blinking lights, a car with a lights, or any number of little gimmicky things that need electrical power? Over the years, I’ve seen plenty of models that were not dioramas need an extension cord.

I’ve not asked for special categories, or awards. Nor am I asking or suggesting changing any rules. All I’ve said is many people feel dioramas would be better seen where people can see them from more that one angle and somehow everyone is all upset about changes to the system.

Dak

 

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Dak

     This will be my last reply on this. Ok, I went back and looked at my convention issues all the way back to 06 (14 conventions) . There were only 2 years that Dio's were up against a wall, 07 and 19. There was bleed over from the main isles in 12 and 13 to tables up against a wall. So to say dio's are always up against a wall or make it sound like Dio's are always  pushed aside or relegated to poor viewing positions simply isn't true.

     MOST entries that are powered these days are done so with batteries. Very, very few are powered via plug in. I've seen more aircraft,cars and sci-fi that are under their own power more more than i have seen them powered via extension cords Especially these days compared to say 15 years or more ago. 

     So in closing as the numbers have shown you're making suggestions' for an issue that doesn't exist.

 

Jim 

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23 hours ago, JClark said:

Not every national show is set up the same.

Hence, my usage of the word generally. 

And you are absolutely correct about having unexpected turnout, either high or low. We had to "rekajigger" our layout at 2005 as well as almost every local & regional we did because of this. 

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I don’t make every national convention, and I have pointed out there were others where the dioramas were out in the room. As with many things, I’m speaking in general about contests. 

If most stuff that needs power have batteries, then the excuse that dioramas are against the wall because some may need power, is a poor reason. 

But, like at Chattanooga, they could have simply moved small scale armor to the wall and shifted dioramas to other tables, but no one thought of that.

I know this can be done because I participated in moving the Figures out of the dark spot at Columbus. All it takes is a willingness to think outside the box.

Dak

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Read the rules.  The Host club does not have to provide power or space to anyone without 30 days notice.  Section I #6.486346564_MODELROOMcropped.thumb.jpg.9697db16e1fd24cb42d53b183661a80c.jpg As for it being a "poor excuse for throwing them up against the wall"  What else do we throw up against the wall?  We can have more power available at less cost to the membership along the wall.  Center tables all require their own drop.  Each drop cost money.  Along the wall I can have one or two drops and power dozens of models.

I personally believe it is a waist of IPMS USA money to provide power for anyone's models or dioramas.  DC power only and write it into the rules.  Models must be self contained, PERIOD.  

NCC Write it into the rules.

I truthfully think the biggest issue is will we have enough room for all the entries.

Joe Porche'   

Not written by an arm chair quarter back.

The person who personally spent dozens of hours going back and forth on the model room layout and will take full responsibility for it.  Don't like it hit me up, we can have a spirited conversation. 702-296-9976 or jwporco@gmail.com

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I did not say---

1 hour ago, josephporche said:

"poor excuse for throwing them up against the wall" 

Every event has its own special challenges. All I am doing is suggesting dioramas are better served when they are out in the middle of the room where people can see them from different angles. This should not be taken as an insult to those doing all the hard work to put on the show. However, as with so many things, there is never change unless someone says something. There is always a tendency to do things the same old way because we have always done it that way. We have created a system which will more than likely increase the number of dioramas and I know some were unhappy with their model being literally hidden behind other dioramas.

I have seen many venues where there are power outlets out in the center of the floor. If access to power is the issue, perhaps this should be a consideration when choosing a contest room, in the future. Not always possible, I'm sure, but something to consider.

I will lose no sleep if the dioramas are against the wall and I expect no change at this date. Hopefully we will all have fun, but I will continue to say the models are badly judged unless I win.ūüėú¬†Then, of course,¬†I will wax poetic about the fine quality of the judges and their superb esthetics.

Dak

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DAK

              Yes, there are out lets in the floors of many venues. That doesn't mean you can simply plug in. Sometimes power has to be turned onto those that are in the floor, sometimes the facility will state they have to have their electrician come in and plug in the extension cord. All of that cost IPMS money. in 2018 we had to pony up $35 for every single plug that went into an outlet. You get an entrant that brings 2 powered entries and you're now paying him to show his/her stuff. So much can be done with LED's these days that I don't see much demand for anything other than battery operated items. I'm getting ready to build a Warhammer Imperial knight that will have 4 flickering , 1 breathing/pulsing, 3 solid and one trailing row of LED's all powered off a 9 volt battery.  Go check out evandesigne.com for more lighting ideas..

 

Jim

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Jim,

Again you are are being unnecessarily pedantic. I know all this and and am just speaking in general terms for people who are familiar with the problems. Perhaps you should write up a piece for the Journal explaining all this to those who have never been involved with putting on a contest. I made a suggestion for a possible change or future events and that is all.

However, your remark shows how for one or two people an entire group must suffer so a few can have special treatment. That is why I say put those that need power in their own spot. I know in past events some big entries got separated form their category with no problems with judging. You guys are making way more out of this than I am and frankly, you are sounding overly defensive. It is as if you are trying to justify some careless oversight.

Dak

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JIm,

And $35 was a heck of a deal.

Dak,

"then the excuse that dioramas are against the wall because some may need power, is a poor reason."  I interpreted that as 

"poor excuse for throwing them up against the wall"

FYI the original budget for ALL electrical, Data and AV Needs was 12k.  After our pie in the sky approach with the Rio they hit us with a 29K bill.  Once my heart restarted Dioramas got thrown to the wall, so we could shave the bill down to 11k+.  

what did we loose.

All the data and power drops we needed. 2 k  A 1/2 day of seminars because they charge full price for the whole day. another 2.5k An awesome awards show spectacular 10k. A far out raffle Audio visual display 6k.  yeah i though that much for audio for the raffle WTF?

Anyways I wonder.

safe travels all

Joe
 

 

 

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As I said, I grok all this. I priced a convention at Harrahs about ten years ago. I still think putting dioramas against the wall is a mistake and by basing the argument on power needs, you are granting special treatment to a small group at the expense of others.

I think a couple thousand words explaining all this would make a good article in the Journal. Let people actually know the problems you face. 

Everything is set now, so making an issue about it at this late date is unnecessary and puzzling.

Dak

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2 hours ago, josephporche said:

 yeah i though that much for audio for the raffle WTF?

Do you remember Robin Williams doing the Harvard School of Business cheer?

"Rick 'em, Rack 'em, Rook 'em, Ruck 'em, Get their money, Really **** 'em!"

42 years later, it still applies!!!

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Love that Jim! Hilarious!

One idea: How about having the dioramas displayed sideways so both front and back can be seen. The side of the dio with less action/story could face the wall without any loss of effect on what people see in both front and back.

 

Just a crazy idea.... I'll go back to my Hobby Room now.....

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2 hours ago, Mark Deliduka said:

One idea: How about having the dioramas displayed sideways so both front and back can be seen. The side of the dio with less action/story could face the wall without any loss of effect on what people see in both front and back.

When I say dioramas are often marginalized, this is the sort of silliness that is the basis for that attitude.

Dak

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On 8/4/2021 at 2:48 PM, Dakimbrell said:

When I say dioramas are often marginalized, this is the sort of silliness that is the basis for that attitude.

Dak

Then you totally misunderstood what I was suggestion., I was in no way marginalizing dioramas at all. I didn't think it silly at all; as one who has judged dioramas at local shows, I have always been amazed at how much extra detail was placed on the back side of a diorama numerous times. My suggestion was simply an idea that would allow everyone to see this without having to lean over the table to see the back side! That way all the extra detail on front and back can be readily seen by all without endangering any models from low hanging badges or necklaces. If only you had read my comment as a positive suggestion instead of prejudging it as a "silly, marginalizing" comment then you'd come to realize that it is not a bad idea and that I was trying to help, not 'marginalize'!

 

Okay, I'm going back to my workbench now. Gotta get ready for Vegas!

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Seeing the back side is not exactly the concern. Being able to see them without them being hidden behind others is more what I had in mind. Turning them sideways turns the dioramas away from the way the the artists intended them them to be viewed. This is marginalizing whether you intended it or not. Would you like to turn the presentation of your models over to others?

No one would make such a suggestion for aircraft categories or say ships. Presentation is always part of what we do it may not be a judging point but each of us has a way we want the model to be seen.

I will be curious to see how many entries need an an electrical outlet this year. I admit I have never kept a close count before, but this string has made me more aware of how the diorama placement is dependent on what I think is small number of entries needing power.

At any rate, it is all set in stone for this year. In the future, things may change. 

Dak

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7 minutes ago, Dakimbrell said:

In the future, things may change. 

And we may yet have genetically modified swine with the ability of flight, but don't count on it. Why change what works, I was recently admonished.

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1 hour ago, jcorley said:

And we may yet have genetically modified swine with the ability of flight, but don't count on it. Why change what works, I was recently admonished.

Things do change.  It just can be a long and arduous task.  I was part of a group that lobbied for a rewrite of the "civilian vehicle" class along with renaming it.  It literally took years to get it going and more than a year of work by about 20 car builders to get the rules to were they are today.  The battle was mostly over the military-centric nature of IPMS not wanting to change from civilian vehicle to Automotive.  Now it just seems normal, but 14 years ago it was a real blood bath to get the changes through. 

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it" was heard long and loud.  What it takes is a group of members willing to band together in a constructive way for change, not just a few on a website complaining as individuals.   

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Pete

          Was that at the National level because I went back and looked and the last time there was a civilian vehicle class at the Nats was 92 from 93 on class 5 has been called Automotive.

James

         Change for the sake of change is pointless. You may "Feel" a change is better, that doesn't necessarily make it so.

 

Jim

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Effective 2013 ships added a commercial category as a test.   It was added at the request of several competitors.    It was to be the home for all the Titanics, cruise ships, cargo ships, and de-militarized Liberty ship tramp steamers.    For a year or two it was supported, but not greatly.   By 2019 it was eliminated.   The last couple of years it had but 2 entries.  Times like these I would like the option to collapse (reverse-split) categories.

The NCC may make changes, but support for the change needs to come from the modelers.  Obviously autos did.   Not so much from my civilian ship modelers.

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