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What is in appropriate or grosses you out?


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I was talking with a friend about a vignette of some German soldiers about to butcher a dead horse when he said he didn't like the dead horse at all. He likes animals and didn't like to see such things. Another guy I know got upset if there were children's toys in a war scene. One thought some bones showing in an old graveyard of a horror model were totally inappropriate at a model contest.

Personally, while I tend to avoid models showing the SS in heroic poses, I can't say they upset me. Swastikas certainly offend some, but I'm more offended by trying to edit them out of history.

So, I'm curious what sort of things upset others? What do you think is "inappropriate" for a model contest and why?

Dak

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You'll get a different answer probably from each individual, as tastes and sensibilities vary individually.

The only entries to truly worry about are those that border on violating Rule 5; those that border on "obscenity", and are basically pruriently sexual in nature. While they do not offend me, the problem is that IPMSUSA is deemed a "family" organization and thus there's the real possibility of others, especially kids, being exposed to graphic works that do not represent IPMSUSA nor the vast majority of our model building members.

As for general items in scenes or on bases that anyone MIGHT take exception to; it's an unfortunate reality that in today's society too many people think that just because THEY are offended, others have to cow-tow to their feelings. For any and all such examples that you cited above, and that do not concern Rule 5, I'd simply tell the individual if you don't like what you see, move on and stop looking at it!

 

Gil :cool:

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Ask yourself: “Would I want my child to see it?” If the answer is “no,” then don’t do it.

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6 hours ago, SkyKing said:

Ask yourself: “Would I want my child to see it?” If the answer is “no,” then don’t do it.

That doesn’t really work for me because I see model work as art and free speech. There is nothing I would not let the kids see. But that is just me. 

I never thought the rule 5 was a good idea. I think it odd that SS, and other Nazi stuff is ok, but showing the train unloading at Dachau is not. That a naked figure is bad, but nude nose art is fine. IPMS is not the Cub Scouts. Most of the members are adults (And old adults, at that) and should be treated as adults.

The main thing is was trying to get at was what specifically and why some find certain things upsetting. I am not trying to start and argument over the current rules.

I don’t deliberately wish to offend people, but neither do I feel obligated bow to another’s arbitrary whim.
 

Dak

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What Gil said. Unfortunately, I was IPMS Prez when all this started mostly from one individual but we did get several complaints- for example, a model of Big Foot which was a "male" and his junk was at eye level for a child.  We even had one gent send us books on pornography and were accused as a society of pandering pornography. Fun times....NOT

 

Dave

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Modelling to each and every one of us is subjective. Whatever we do will not please everyone.

I fear that we are drifting into PC territory, and there seem to be individuals out there who go out of their way to be offended at the slightest thing.

Having said that, there are things that I have seen at shows where modellers have stepped over the line a bit.

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24 minutes ago, noelsmith said:

Modelling to each and every one of us is subjective. Whatever we do will not please everyone.

I fear that we are drifting into PC territory, and there seem to be individuals out there who go out of their way to be offended at the slightest thing.

Having said that, there are things that I have seen at shows where modellers have stepped over the line a bit.

Yes, but what offends you?

I agree one should always consider certain things might offend someone, but what what one person may see as insulting another sees as a memorial. Who gets to decide?

Still, the question is what bothers you. If we don’t talk about it, then no one knows.

For example, is a model of one of the 9/11 planes offensive? In New York City, probably. In Oklahoma, maybe not as much. 
 

Is a model of the Panzer 4 that fired the first shots at Malmedy offensive or just history. Some would see such models as tributes to the victims and others as a slap in the face.

How is a Naked Bigfoot different that Michelangelo’s David, or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel?

Dak

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As an individual, you can build and display whatever you want to in your home--if you want to depict the inside of an Auschwitz gas chamber or the gallows at Nuremberg, go for it.  Incidentally, here is another dichotomy--would the latter be acceptable and the former not?  Who's to say?  Follow along... 

In a public setting, there are rules.  Society has rules, IPMS/USA has rules.  You don't follow the rules, you get asked to change your behavior or leave.  Why is this such a difficult concept for people to understand? 

When a person cries "censorship" and "political correctness", this is nothing more than that person trying to project their values on everyone else, and just because an event is public in nature doesn't give one free rein to do whatever they wish, others be damned.  Free speech and expression has limitations.

Does Rule 5 have inconsistencies?  Sure.  No rule is perfect.  But it is one of those rules we must obey at an IPMS-sanctioned show.  As with all contest rules, you need to know them going in, and if you don't like them you need to either work to change the rule, change your behavior, or simply walk away from the game.

For the record, not a lot of what I see on a contest table shocks me, because I know/understand the context behind the events in most cases and can use that to temper my reaction.  But someone who only sees people being tortured or put to death without having that understanding might well be disgusted by the scene.  And we have to play to that denominator--not everybody is hip to the jive, so to speak. 

And it doesn't cost anyone a cent to play along, follow the rules, and be a civil human being.

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It is worth remembering that while we, as craftsmen, historians and even artists may have a very high bar for what is “not acceptable,” our shows and displays are often viewed by the, as it were, uninitiated. This includes women and, especially, children. A beautifully, skillfully, even sensitively rendered depiction of a concentration camp or a firing squad or the Crucifixion, even when it meets the acceptability requirements of I. 5. A. and B., might still leave the average viewer with a most unfavourable impression of IPMS and modeling. Better to err on the side of discretion and the ordinary rules of good taste. Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

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Again, we have gotten away from what I was looking for. What I wanted was to see what little things upset individuals, not argue back and forth on the current rules. Basically, I agree with Ralph, except that I would say those that insist something is inappropriate are also projecting their values onto others.

1 hour ago, Ralph Nardone said:

And it doesn't cost anyone a cent to play along, follow the rules, and be a civil human being.

But as of yet, no one has actually said what and why they find a particular thing disturbing, gross, or improper for a model subject for public display. Often we are blindsided by stuff we would never suspect is an issue.

Dak

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Interesting viewpoint here.  I have often contemplated building an "execution diorama" but there two ways to look at it.  I wanted to do a dio of Kim's execution of one of his relatives (sorry, I forget who) who was supposedly executed via A/A gun.  Not the version showing the bloody aftermath (which I would not want to see for obvious reasons); but my version would be just before the act.  That is, having the victim tied to a pole or stood against a wall, with the A/A gun about 30 yards away I guess and a small crowd of officials looking on as a "reminder" of the cost of disobeying Kim. 

Having said that, I KNOW the aftermath dio is not allowed in IPMS/USA competition BUT, would the "PRE-EXECUTION" dio be allowed?  No blood, no gore, cuts or anything else.  Just the observers, Kim on a stage with his handlers (complete with notepads), the A/A Gun and the victim .

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Why would an execution be any different than showing dead soldiers? I remember a beach scene a few years ago with plenty of dead Marines and Japanese. In one case some were being bbq'd with a flame thrower. One year I entered a Guillotine with blood one the blade.

Dak

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Because scenario #1 (death by A/A gun) is intended to be horrendously gory, to be remembered by observers.  Scenario #2 doesn't involve any death or gore, but tells the same story leaving the gore up to the onlooker's imagination.  IMHO, that alone would make for a better dio.

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43 minutes ago, Rusty White said:

Because scenario #1 (death by A/A gun) is intended to be horrendously gory, to be remembered by observers.  Scenario #2 doesn't involve any death or gore, but tells the same story leaving the gore up to the onlooker's imagination.  IMHO, that alone would make for a better dio.

I agree, it makes a better story. Gore for the sake of gore....or nudity for the sake of nudity....is pointless. 
Dak

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Personally I don't generally take issue with subjects or displays that have context, a purpose, a story. I can be disgusted and shocked by something and still see the meaning and craft in it. One that sticks with me is the diorama "Remember the Children" from Omaha in 2011. Shocking? Yes. Horrifying? Yes Something people need to see? Definitely. That idea could have been handled in many more gruesome ways but the builder handled it gracefully in my opinion. Ten years later it's still in my memory bank.

So what is over the top? I don't know that I can say for sure. The Vietnamese monks burning themselves in '63 is one. Then again I have personally seen the horror of people burning so that affects my view. Suicide would be taboo for me. Executions would have to handled well. As many things in life, I guess it depends.

As far as butchering animals, corpses, and bones go I don't see an issue. Again it's the context that makes it or breaks it. There's no issue with having your freshly killed and dressed deer in the bed of your truck but don't park that thing in the front window of the restaurant with the tailgate down while you go in to get some dinner.

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Dak asked what I considered offensive. Like I said before this is subjective to each individual. I personally do not care one jot about what people model in private for their own gratification. But they do need to give what they are making some thought before placing it on public display, particularly if the subject matter could be construed as contentious.

Referring to what I said about seeing some models at shows that stepped over the line,  I was referring to the depiction of things like the gore of dismembered bodies for the sake of it. Also, figures that are blatantly pornographic showing genitalia are also stepping over the line, and I am not talking about scantily dressed figures with breasts showing here, as that should be the acceptable limit.

One has to have consideration, especially at shows where youngsters could be present. So it is actually immaterial what I personally would find offensive, but IPMS has a duty to uphold standards of decency in the public domain at model shows.

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Noel has again missed the point of this string. I didn't want to question the rules, but find out what things actually upset people and why. It just seems some find the oddest (to me) to find as inappropriate or upsetting.

I view model building as an art form. Some, even gross violence, is done better than others. But is a child's toy in a battle scene too much? Is a dead animal of any kind something children shouldn't see? Is a dead human, too much? People often see the same thing but see it differently and there is always someone who will find complaint.

The question is where do we draw the line? Do we try to be everything to all people or do we treat our members like the "adults" they are?

Dak

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Dak,          'What is inappropriate or grosses you out.'.       Header for this thread.

My last post does not mention rules in any way shape or form but does actually describe two things that could be offensive and inappropriate to the majority of people, and especially at public shows. So no I do not think that I missed the point of this discussion. The line has to be drawn somewhere. I think most of us know what is in good or bad taste, so it should not need spelling out.

Not.much grosses me out personally, however other people's sensitivities have to be considered, within reason. You mention the depiction of dead animals. It is one thing to show a shot intact dead animal in the back of a pick up truck, but I have seen a photo taken in WW1 of a dismembered horse with its entrails hanging out blasted up into a tree. Seeing that horse modelled I would consider gross but not the shot animal in the pick up truck. It comes down to what is considered in good or bad taste!

Taken to an extreme, out and out pacifists might find most of IPMS members interests in warplanes, warships and AFV's grosses them out as they are designed to destroy, kill and maim.  You will never, ever please everyone as their views differ considerably.

What people make models of in private is up to them, but gore and genitalia on publicly displayed models I find distasteful, and that grosses me out. Why any modeller would actually want to place anything like that on public display is beyond my comprehension, even if they loosely described and consider it as an art form allowing freedom of expression. With freedom however comes personal responsibility as to whether or not, where and when.

Edited by noelsmith
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Again, Noel, you missed the point. I did not intend this as a discussion of “what is appropriate” or what crosses the line, or why a line should be drawn. It is not a discussion of standards. 
 

What I am curious about was what specifically an individual finds upsetting or in bad taste. What YOU personally find disturbing not what you think might be upsetting to others.

Too often people worry about what others “might” think.

Dak

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For example: I have been told by some that they find this diorama inappropriate for a contest because of the Trump bumper sticker. However, one said it was wrong to show my support for Trump and another felt it shows my contempt for the former President. Obviously, both these people are projecting their own feelings onto me. There was also one who was upset I put bumper stickers on a Ferrari and one that “really hated” it because I buried the pretty car in concrete. Another somehow decided I was being critical of union workers for marking the wet concrete incorrectly.

To me, nothing is either right or wrong. Only thinking makes it so. 
 

Dak

4A2B970D-137B-49C2-9C74-EB1B6A58F828.jpeg

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Dak, On the one hand, in this thread, you have been asking us to tell you what offend us as individuals. Then, when someone told you what they thought of the implications of your Trump sticker, they were “ projecting their own feelings onto “( you). Your use of this expression suggests that you were somewhat put out by what they had to say.  So, do you really want to know what people think or not? When does simply voicing one’s opinion become “projecting their own feelings?” -especially when, as you say, “nothing is really right or wrong.” Maybe you are “thinking” about it all too much.

There is, however, one thing that is wrong: to suggest “nothing is either right or wrong.” 
Nick

Edited by Nick Filippone
Hit submit button too soon. Sorry
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Certainly, I want to hear what people say. The car is merely an example to support a previous remark. It illustrates what I mean by people seeing things from a different perspective. I’m amused by the reactions, not annoyed. I note all the comments are about the Trump sticker and not the other one. Lol. 
 

In the WWI section of our local museum there is a photo of a leg and boot hanging in a tree. Children see it all the time. At one point, for many years, the museum displayed a lamp from Hitler’s Munich apartment labeled (erroneously) as being made from human skin. The museum guides often pointed this out to visitors. Times change and and attitudes change. (The lamp and others memorabilia were stolen in a break in, btw)
 

What do you think is gross, inappropriate for a model, or display at a contest. I don’t care what the rules say or whether you agree with them. This is about what individuals think and their personal “demons”.

I would never have thought a teddy bear in a street fight scene would have upset someone more than a dead soldier, but apparently it did.

There are always two sides to a coin. I am a veteran and a patriot. But to me playing the National anthem at sporting events cheapens it and should be banned. I dislike children thinking play ball or start your engines is part of the song. I accept other vets and patriots do not share this sentiment. But neither is right or wrong. The thinking makes it so. But so does context. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Dak

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DAK: as I stated before...the answer to your question will be varied, as each individual has a different opinion. There is NO consensus or agreement going to be reached. And the reason for each person's choice of "offense" cannot be further questioned because it's simply their personal feeling, just as yours is yours.

However, you asked this question here on the IPMSUSA forums. I and others have rightly tried to frame our answers in relation to IPMSUSA, the public, and ourselves because you asked it here, and not on some other general opinion web-page. You should not be frustrated in getting those types of replies since you asked it here.

You can debate this ad nauseum, but the only real reason to further the discussion HERE is as it applies to IPMSUSA. Trying to discern our personal feelings of what's acceptable or not only has meaning here IF you want to try to work toward changing IPMSUSA's treatment of controversial, possibly "offensive" entries at shows by determining who among us has the same feelings as yourself.

Since you've stated that is NOT your goal; then I suggest you've asked and been answered.

 

Gil :cool:

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Dak............as you insist                       Blatant exposure of Genitalia and Gore on models I find in bad taste!

                                                              My head hurts!

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