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OOB Rules ???? for ya


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On 12/23/2020 at 3:20 AM, noelsmith said:

OOB is NOT ABOUT ACCURACY!    Many kits are inaccurate, particularly older ones. The whole idea of OOB that seems to be missed by some is that it is purely a test in basic skills in model building a kit as it was intended to be built by the manufacturer. Judges will not be looking at all about how accurate the kit is, just how well.made and painted.

I never said it was--I merely mentioned that modelers who want to game the OOB rules make that claim--they feel they "need" to include ignition harnesses or deck railings to make their model "accurate".  And I also said that OOB, for an experienced modeler, is automatically a compromise, since the OOB rules box you in on what you can or cannot do to the model, where as the Open categories allow you freedom to do whatever you wish. 

Honestly, I can think on no plastic modeling organization that (officially) uses accuracy as a yard stick.  Every now and then, I see a claim from IPMS folks along the lines of "well, we use it as a tie-breaker", which I find ludicrous at face value.

As far as using aftermarket decals goes, it is nothing more than a finishing step--decals are decals, they apply (mostly) the same way.  From what I recall during a long discussion years ago on this very subject, the consensus was that a decal was a decal was a decal.  It doesn't change the manufacturer's configuration of the plastic.

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The other alternative--one I favor, and one I've discussed on this forum before--is to limit out of box models to being just that--out of the box.  Period.  No added seat belts, rigging, spark plug wi

This debate has opened up the inevitable can of worms. But as I see it, apart from paint, Out of the Box should mean exactly that including the kit decals, even if the decals suck as one poster s

Actually, more detail parts in a kit makes it HARDER to compete in contests, because there's more things you need to get right. Judge enough and you'll see plenty of anti-gravity photoetched seatbelts

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Just a thought, but some of the new raised detail decals may change that “decals are a decal” line of reason. For example the new Quinta Studios decals can really spiff up a cockpit beyond a mere IP decal that comes on an old Super Scale decal set for a type of aircraft. I can see using rivet decals used to replaced raised rivet detail lost in seam clean up... 

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I still maintain OOB has become obsolescent. True many like it, but that is because they believe they can enter a contest and win with a modern kit without going to great expense or effort. However, technology keeps changing and it seems every year or two they have to tweak the rules again. All the current OOB categories do is make more work for the contest judges. There are better ways to create the same number of categories and make it interesting.

Do a builders category. Pick a specific kit and have that as the only entry and require it to be built out of the box.

Do a painters category. Any kit, but painting and decals are the only thing judged. (Different scales, of course.)

From the get go, divide the categories more specifically. For example: Battle of Britain/ British or North Africa German Armor.

Another way to go would be divide things up based on skill level. Let the entrant pick the level where they feel comfortable.

Dak

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wow

        I apologize for missing this thread and not checking the forum sooner. As Ed Grune mentioned in regards to the aircraft class, I have made some suggestions to the Head judge regarding OOB. Weather they are implemented or not is up to Mark P. I have personal feelings on OOB, but as a Class head judge I can't let those interfere with the administration of our rules in regards to OOB. As for now it's here due to it's popularity and participation. I Agree, the OOB rules are clear as mud and could do with some house keeping hence the suggestions to Head Judge. Hopefully some clarification will come for the 2021 nats "If it's held". And more importantly if they are not implemented (for 2021) then we will have a chance to discuss my ideas in detail and in person at the NCC meeting which may further the understanding of my intent. 

      As for Decals. Some have mentioned that for OOB to be true you have to use the kit decals. Well yes but the reason aftermarket decals are allowed is due to the fact that decals can degrade over time making them unusable. So why penalize the entrant over something beyond their control? The new Quinta studios offering will be addressed and not allowed in OOB. 

 

Jim

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8 hours ago, JClark said:

As for Decals. Some have mentioned that for OOB to be true you have to use the kit decals. Well yes but the reason aftermarket decals are allowed is due to the fact that decals can degrade over time making them unusable. So why penalize the entrant over something beyond their control? The new Quinta studios offering will be addressed and not allowed in OOB. 

 

Jim

It could be as easy as altering the language from "Decals other than those included with the kit may be used" to "Alternate paint and markings schemes are permitted."

As for items like the Quinta cockpit details, they may be printed on decal paper, but I see them as the plastic evolution of photoetched parts.  That's just me...

Cheers!

Ralph

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OOB is obsolescent. Its only current value is to increase the numbers of categories and this could be do with less wailing and gnashing of teeth over the rules.

Dak

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As an avid model builder, enthusiastic trophy hound and practicing National Contest judge, I have never had nor have I any problem with OOB. Neither do most people who enter these categories- at least in my personal experience. I agree with Jim, based on it’s popularity and participation, these categories should be kept. 
While changes in contest categories are at the discretion of the NCC, heretofore, they have, appropriately, based such decisions on the perceived preferences of the National Contest contestants - usually expressed in the numbers of entries in a category from year to year. The predictable annual excoriation of OOB, while providing some food for thought, must be assessed with care because numerically, in the absence of, dare I say it, polling information, it represents only a tiny, apparently, fraction of the National contest- entering membership. The continued enthusiastic participation in these categories puts the lie to the notion that OOB is unwanted, antiquated and should be eliminated. Just sayin.’ 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge
 

 

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But Nick, if you bother to look at what is being entered in OOB, they are no longer old Monogram or Aurora kits, but modern kits with lots of details.

The majority of people are now building models virtually from the box. The original intent of OOB has passed as a need.

It just seems there could be better ways to diversify the categories without having to continually check rules to see a particular model follows them. OOB rules take up more space than any other class. This strikes me as ironic for a class of models that is supposed to be “simple”. 
 

I just think OOB has reached the end of its need. 
 

Dak

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On 12/23/2020 at 12:23 AM, Dakimbrell said:

People who knowingly cheat don't care if the victory is "hollow". However, I do not automatically assume anyone is cheating. I am just making the point that the complexity of modern kits makes it extremely easy to change or add detail without being noticed. Also, models today are much easier to build as "correct" or as award winning models than those from the early days of OOB forty years ago.

What is the point of OOB any longer? Originally, it was to give people a chance to compete without having to rebuild half a model just to be on even ground. Now days, that is no longer the issue. Here is an OOB Tiger except for the figures. Zimmerit, single link tracks, engine deck screens, closed sponsons, and gun breech were not available in the basic kit forty years ago, but are now standard features.

The Albatross is a WNW kit out of the box except for the machineguns which are Gaspatch. Would anyone notice if I didn't say anything?

Dak

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OPEN SKY_6375.jpg

Incredible detail , so far this is the best model I've seen.

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Dak's comment about a modeller building OOB building a modern kit and therefore winning contests without expense and effort. Whether building a kit straight or adding details takes effort to make a good finished model regardless. As for avoiding expense? 

 So a modeller building the Tamiya Caterham 7 for example, straight out of the box avoids expense and effort? I don't think so!

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Actually, I do bother to look at what is being entered in these categories as I enter them and judge them. What kits are being entered is not the point. One of the most important reasons for creating OOB was to provide categories where perhaps more casual modelers feel they can compete successfully without having to do the major surgery or create out of raw materials the extra details often seen in the “standard” categories. While there may be an element of perception versus reality in this distinction in the minds of modelers, it is an important perception. IPMS contests have long been accused (perceived?) of catering to advanced modelers. OOB modelers wanted and apparently still want these more comfortable categories that are better related to how they see themselves and how they view their skills. As an organization struggling to expand membership, making it even more snobbish is not in our interest, notwithstanding the fact that it is true that in reality the displayed levels of skill between OOB and regular categories (at least at the National Contest) are frequently indistinguishable. 

In any event, what anyone of us thinks is irrelevant. In this matter, it appears that, given the numbers of entries, the people have voted with their models! 
 

Nick
 

 

 

 

 

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I do not feel that a OOB  win is automatically an easy win. Particularly give the quality of kits and artistic ability at a National. Sure it is “popular” because people are now using the category as a way to hedge their bet. 
 

If you build two Takom Tiger tanks, you enter one in the regular category and one in the OOB category. It gives you more chances to win.
 

Now days, most entries seem to be high quality kits. In some cases, you don’t even need to drill out a machine gun barrel or exhaust. No one starts entering an IPMS National with an OOB Smer kit. This unit elitist model building, just reality. 
 

When OOB was created, it had a purpose. Now, that need has past and there are better ways to expand the categories giving others a chance to win without the headache of the OOB rules.

Dak

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  • 3 weeks later...

Another OOB thread!  With the same players, arguments, assertions, defenses, substantiations, and challenges --- pro and con.  I ought to know ... in years past, I was an enthusiastic OOB debater.  I do not impinge upon the motives of the poster, as he is yet another innocent who has looked at the OOB situation and said, "Hmmmm.  Hey, what about .....?".  Like many before him.  And like more to come.

It seems to me that, if this pattern repeatedly repeats, maybe the OOB rules are not crystal clear.  Doesn't make me no never mind anymore.

I do know this.  I recently acquired both the Eduard 1/48 P-51D-5 (Profipack) and the Eduard 1/48 P-51D-5 (Weekend Edition).  Identical sprue but, OOB, very different kits.  Fine.  As long as everyone, particularly judges, understands.

Hey.  I also go the 1/48 Eduard P-51D-25 in the Iwo Jima version.  IMHO, the best aircraft kit ever.  Not that I'm partial to WWII Pacific.

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Of course, the same argument continues. That doesn’t mean it is invalid or unwanted. Nothing changes if no one debates the merits.

Things change and periodically you have to revisit the same argument to see if the original concept is still valid. 
 

Dak

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DAK: The current purpose of the OOTB category is to give members a perception that they're competing on a more even level with others like themselves and avoiding the "honchos" with (again perceived) skills that they don't have.

Does it achieve that purpose? Yes AND no......

Those competing in OOTB ARE competing on a "more level" field. It's been leveled by limiting and preventing things from being done to builds that do not come "in the box" (with the applicable exceptions the NCC has caved to). So, all of the builds are judged simply on the quality of the assembly and finish. Detailing is determined by the kit chosen, and not by the skill of the builder. As past Head Judge Aris Pappas wisely advised: If you're going to compete, pick the BEST kit of that subject you can get to start with! Thus, whether it's a matter of not having the scratchbuilding skills, or simply not being willing to spend all that extra time on a build the honchos do, "Joe IPMS" feels like he's building a model that will be very much like EVERY other model in the category; "OOTB".

On the other hand, "Joe IPMS" is NOT avoiding the honchos....many honchos build an OOTB model to relieve their stress after finishing their "labor of love",  AND the super competitive trophy hounds build OOTB because they know they'll have another shot at another trophy. So, the honchos ARE very often in the OOTB categories though their builds don't jump out at first glance as much because they're simply OOTB.

I believe you ARE correct in that the original purpose of OOTB HAS been obsoleted by the quality of today's kits.

However, in the end, I have to agree with Nick. IPMS should keep OOTB because those perceptions ARE important, whether technically they're right or wrong. And, the OOTB cats ARE very popular. THAT is enough reason to keep them, perceptions or no.

IPMS, overall, has had a problem with its image (perception) with the modeling public at large. To eliminate OOTB would certainly make people THINK that IPMS was saying "we don't care" about the newer, less experienced model builder. It would cement the mistaken view that we're die-hard accuracy freaks and detail Nazis that live to win trophies at the expense of the "more casual" builder.

If OOTB doesn't attract you anymore, then enter elsewhere. I wouldn't want to try to do away with an area that so many others enjoy though. Cheers!

 

Gil :smiley16:

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36 minutes ago, ghodges said:

IPMS should keep OOTB because those perceptions ARE important,

Gil,

Why? Most of us, the membership majority, are adults. They know what is going on, or at least should. All the current set up does is make more work for everyone for no real gain.

In this photo you can see it replaced the kit string for the tow cable with a homemade wire cable. It is hardly a big thing and if I said nothing about it, it would probably go unnoticed. Yet, it totally excludes the model from OOB and forces it to compete with the "honchos". Wouldn't it be more "fair" to make the "honchos" compete separately?

Personally, I don't think there really are "honchos". I think it is a myth created to justify categories for those who don't want to compete on a level field. The perpetuation of OOB does nothing but make IPMS look like a bunch of geeks playing with toys. And that is not true. About 90% of the models at Chattanooga were EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE and most of the OOB entries could have competed fairly in any category. The only "honchos" I saw were in the scratch and conversion categories.

Dak

 

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Competition brings out the best in products and the worst in people. -- David Sarnoff, President of the Radio Corporation of America and the father of modern color television.

The siren's song of competition in what should be a hobby has clouded a lot of folks' idea of what the hobby itself is all about.  (Hint--it ain't about the awards.)

We need to stop the illusion that the current IPMS/USA contest format is good for modeling.  It may have been at one time, but I've seen too many cases of how it has turned into a ruthless and cutthroat blood-sport, where the guys who have cracked the code continue to win more and more while less experienced modelers wonder why they cannot "win", too.

We need to remind ourselves that this is a hobby, and that our shows should be about the models, not the medals (or trophies, or plaques, etc.).  Awards, of course, are nice, but they shouldn't be the raison d’être for building models.

I'll forgo my usual stump speech for scored contests with skill levels and written feedback, since that would start another thread beating that dead horse some more.

Cheers!

R

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For some members, it is about the medals. For some of us, it is about medals and models. One’s attitude toward one’s hobby ( or job, or marriage or religion) is very personal. It seems to me that the arguments against contests are employed by people who cannot win, either due to lack of skill or lack of assiduity, or people who have won all the trophies they need and want some kind of release from the onus of preparing for competition (because it does unquestionably exert pressure to be “ perfect “), or people who think that any competition is intrinsically evil ( which also, unquestionably, it often is), and should always be avoided. If you fall into any of these groups, then don’t enter contests. 

One of the great pluses of contests is that it focuses one to build and finish models. How often do we hear folks on this Forum complain that they struggle to finish something? When there is a contest coming up, it compels you to complete something so you have something to enter.

Entering contests and judging contests have made me a better modeler. But I am a perfectionist always trying to improve my skills and results. That is not a bad approach to one’s endeavours in life, whatever they might be.

In the end, the National Organization has an obligation to meet the demands and requirements of as many members as possible. For the E-Board this is an easy one- if you like contests enter our contests. If you don’t like contests  don’t enter but you are still welcome to be members of IPMS and enjoy the other benefits. There is something for everyone here! 
 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge 

 

 

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Over the years, I have seen a number of builders who did well at local contests, where they were the wunderkind, go to regionals and nationals only to get their...hat...handed to them. Insulted, and embarrassed they never come back. That is good because we don't want or need them. They spoil it for the rest of us. While an early win is a sure way to get them hooked---Las Vegas learned that long ago---it also creates unreasonable expectations. As Wall Street says---past performance is no guaranty of future performance.

If you want to win, you have to play. I have entered many contests and come home with nothing but memories....and a lighter wallet. But I still play. Sometimes I bring a knife to the gunfight, but after 55 years of entering contests at all levels, I still show up to enter. That's the real secret to winning and having fun.

The nationals generally are well run these days. That wasn't always the the case. It is also no reason to think this is the ONLY way to do it. Sometimes you have to take a risk and make changes. I think it is time to start doing away with OOB and create categories to replace them which refine the competition and still give beginners a chance to participate and learn without getting discouraged.

Dak

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3 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

I think it is time to start doing away with OOB and create categories to replace them which refine the competition and still give beginners a chance to participate and learn without getting discouraged.

Dak

I agree wholeheartedly. There have been so many developments in the hobby and the kit industry since OOB was first established that it is now meaningless.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nick said the number of entries shows that OOB is popular.  Two thoughts on that:

1.  That isn’t evidence that DAK’s position is wrong, or misguided— that replacing OOB with something less complicated, rules-wise, more relevant to modeling in the 21st century  would be less popular.    I’d submit that to some degree, that statement is irrelevant to the discussion about “Is there a better way?”

2.  Is there any analysis done  on who is entering OOB?   The “but it’s popular!” argument seems pretty weak if the majority of contestants are people just doubling down with two Tigers, as in DAK’s example.  Conversely, the argument is strengthened if the data shows the majority of entrants are first-timers or those who enter OOB only.   My personal perception is that a lot of OOB entrants (and winners?)  are people entering as a second chance to win with their Favorite subject/ kit build.  But absent any  real data, I won’t claim this gut feeling  as a “ fact” ......

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While thinking about the OOB rules, a question I haven’t seen asked before came to mind:

What are the rules in regards to repairing damaged parts?  For example, the  recent Airfix 1/48 Sea Fury is arguably the best available kit of the subject, but a bunch of the first releases had an issue with a slightly short-shot rudder.  Am I allowed to fix it?  If so, how?   Penalized if I don’t?  (What about the Meng 1/32 Fokker Dr.1?   Lots of buyers got kits with a damaged middle wing, I hear.)

The idea behind OOB is you are building a model with what came in the box.  But I think cherry picking the best pieces out of multiple copies of the same kit is OK?   What if the same molds have been used by multiple companies?  (Another OOB slippery slope?)

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22 minutes ago, rcboater said:

My personal perception is that a lot of OOB entrants (and winners?)  are people entering as a second chance to win with their Favorite subject/ kit build

This is my basic perception, too. 
 

As I have said, today’s kits make it much easier to build a very competitive entry with and OOB model.

From the day they started OOB, the rules have been continually modified to accommodate various aspects. Rigging, drilled out guns and exhausts. Replacing decals, and on and on.

IPMS members enjoy pushing the rules to the absolute limit. This puts some—who played by the rules—at a disadvantage when someone pushes a bit a gets a dispensation at the contest.

If you want out OOB, then make it EXACTLY that. No additions or substitutions of any kind. But if you did, everyone would start screaming how unfair it is.

The way it is done now just seems pointless except to create more categories.
 

Dak

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On 2/10/2021 at 9:13 AM, Ralph Nardone said:

We need to stop the illusion that the current IPMS/USA contest format is good for modeling.  It may have been at one time, but I've seen too many cases of how it has turned into a ruthless and cutthroat blood-sport, where the guys who have cracked the code continue to win more and more while less experienced modelers wonder why they cannot "win", too.

Looking at this again, I have to say I don’t think it is true. First, it is extremely rare, but not impossible, for a newbie to win the top awards at a National. It’s all in the work and what else is on the table on a particular day. 
Second, there is no code to crack beyond work and dedication.

Less experienced modelers are not normally super model builders. They have to gain that experience working with kits, coming to clubs, and contests to learn what categories best fit their interests and skills. Why would anyone assume a novice would automatically beat out an experienced modeler?

You play, you learn, you get better. It is the same whether you are playing a violin, pitching a ball, shooting at a target, or building a model. The only way to to Carnage Hall is practice, practice, practice. 

Far too many expect instant gratification. 

Dak

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