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John, I was not referring to you in any way. You never said you would refuse to wear a mask. Not wanting to and refusing are two different things altogether. Personally, I wear a face shield which is more effective in both directions - incoming and outgoing. More comfortable, too. So, if you took me as referring to you: No, I wans't and sorry if you got that impression. Was not intended.

Jim, yes, it does sound contradictory till you consider what I said earlier. I am going to presume that masks will not be mandatory and, if they are, there will be a number of people who will refuse and nothing at all will be done. I advocate cancelling on the presumption that the necessary safety precauutions will not be taken - masks or face shields, no banquet or one that is truly spread out, no crowding at the awards ceremony, vendor tables well spaced and limited numbers of people in the vendor room and so forth. So, yes, unless those precautions are undertaken, I think cancelling is appropriate.

I still won't be going but that is my choice. I do not want to take any chance of bringing it home to my wife who has asthma. That could be a death sentence. Since I will be 70 this year and have diabetes, the same applies to me. Now, with that in mind, you said we are only responsible for ourselves. I would disagree. The age old question: Am I my brother's keeper? The answer is yes, I am. I am responsible to my brother/sister/neighbor in the sense that I will do what is necessary to make sure I am not putting them at risk by a selfish action I would do. And it is the exact opposite attitude which I see among so many these days that distresses me.

As someone said above, it may all be moot if the mask/face shield mandate is extended - except for this one factor - will IPMS staff enforce it?

Peace

Kevin

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TX has implemented mandatory wearing of masks...so we can move on from that argument.

 

😷

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As I said, a lot can happen in 36 days. 

Dak

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1 hour ago, AndrewWhite said:

TX has implemented mandatory wearing of masks...so we can move on from that argument.

 

😷

Point of information.   As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order.

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4 minutes ago, EFGrune said:

Point of information.   As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order.

My mistake...

Argument, back on! 😐🍿 ‼️

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You what would be really helpful, some input from leadership. Maybe an update, maybe scenarios, maybe some information....

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18 minutes ago, jedge3 said:

You what would be really helpful, some input from leadership. Maybe an update, maybe scenarios, maybe some information....

Not since MAY 31st...

🕰️

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I have heard a rumor that the San Marcos Convention only has about a hundred pre-registered attendees. I do not know if this is typical or not as I always register as early as possible and never given it much thought, however, it does not sound good. I expected to see some drop off because of loss of income and illness or fear of contracting the Covid19 virus, but I have know idea how much.

A good clear statement is needed from the convention and IPMS leadership to clarify the situation. And to clearly establish what safety steps they plan to take assuming it all goes on as planned. Masks, or no masks, social distancing, will the hotel bar be open, what specifically is the hotel requiring convention attendees to do? I know things can change over night, but we know it won't before the better.

Keeping people clearly informed is the best way to instill confidence.

Dak

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7 hours ago, EFGrune said:

Point of information.   As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order.

Point of Information: Hays County (San Marcos...) Judge orders Face Masks:

https://www.sanmarcostx.gov/3084/COVID-19-Orders

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I see the top medical people in the country saying wear a mask if you are going to be in a large group.

Why isn’t this enough for us to require attendees to wear masks? Why do we have to wait for the reluctant government of Texas to mandate such things?

Dak

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It is unquestionable that masks reduce the spread of microorganisms that exist on the secretions of the upper respiratory system. This has been known since the early 20th century in studying the epidemiology of tuberculosis and streptococcus- related disease, amongst others. At the same time, surgeons such as myself, as well as any other person in the operating theater, were mandated to wear a mask to prevent the projection of microorganism- laden secretions into the patient’s wound. Why wouldn’t it be effective in reducing the spread of this virus? Of course masks will not stop the disease. That claim has never been made by responsible health care professionals.But in vivo experimental demonstrations have shown that the ejection of upper respiratory secretion droplets can be reduced with masks. The only way to stop it is with a vaccine or by letting everyone be exposed and either die or survive, thereby establishing “herd immunity.” As a physician, the latter is abhorrent to me. So until there is a vaccine, the best we can do is slow the pace of the spread so that hospital ICU’s will not be overwhelmed with many sick patients simultaneously.  This the masks and social distancing can do. 

But what is really disappointing is that some of the same people who contribute to this Forum, enthusiastically welcoming new members and encouraging their modeling apparently have no compunction about refusing to do the least little thing to protect them if they were to encounter them at a Nationals by wearing a mask! Goodness people, these are, supposedly, our friends. Some of us have known each other for close to half a century. And most of us are high risk. Do you really mean you would not put on a mask, required or not, for another member’s protection on a personal point of honour? 

Let’s all just try to be good soldiers, arm ourselves and look out for the other guy in the foxhole with us until the war is won!

Regards, Nick Filippone, M.D.

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Nick,

This is what I don’t get. It is such a small thing that can help so much and the top people on the pandemic are recommending it!

I have spent 30 years working in an  environment that requires safety gear. I even worked with radioactive materials. Wearing a mask is no big deal  

Those opposed to masks run to videos and such which show masks don’t guarantee protection and have problems if worn too long. They ignore that no one says they absolutely guarantee protection. Like all safety equipment, they only improve your odds. 

Dak

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Nick and David,

I agree with both of you completely, so I suppose it's about time i threw in my reasoning.  I am definitely in the high risk category for multiple reasons, starting with asthma combined with elements of COPD...no I've never smoked, the asthma was never properly treated for most of my life...combined with a respiratory collapse a couple or three years ago that also discovered  I have severe sleep apnea and exacerbated with a cardiological birth defect known as AV Node Re-Entry Tachycardia.  I make every effort to avoid contracting Covid-19 since doing so stands a high probability of killing me.  Does that mean I won't be attending the Nats in San Marcos?  Absolutely and you have no idea how badly I wanted to be there.  My wife is also high risk, though not to the degree I am.

That said, if I was hell bent on attending the Nats regardless of my medical problems, I would have absolutely no problems wearing a mask in order to protect not only myself but those around me.  It is simply nothing more than pure old common sense.  Given the evident resurgence of Covid-19, anyone who refuses to wear a mask at a crowded venue...except for the specific and rare situations where wearing a mask would be contradictory...needs to rethink their priorities.

Finally, at the rate things are changing re: the virus, this entire thread may be moot.  From where I sit, the odds are that the 2020 Nats will end up being cancelled is at least 50/50...and that's as I write this.  What they will be tomorrow, never mind next week, is literally anyone's guess.  If we really want to know the most accurate information, we probably need to get it straight from the horse's mouth.  Ask the virus.

Richard Marmo

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3 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

I see the top medical people in the country saying wear a mask if you are going to be in a large group.

Why isn’t this enough for us to require attendees to wear masks? Why do we have to wait for the reluctant government of Texas to mandate such things?

Dak

Hays County requires masks...I.e. where the Nats is being held requires masks...there will be MASKS!

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49 minutes ago, AndrewWhite said:

Hays County requires masks...I.e. where the Nats is being held requires masks...there will be MASKS!

Is this a new requirement or the one that expires on July 20th? And what exemptions are there?

Of course, they could come out and mandate masks everywhere all the time in public. I’m betting on that because they don’t want a shut down. 

Dak

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I just went online to Hays County, and this is the same order that Judge Becerra issued on Thursday that took effect yesterday. It is still set to expire on 7/20/20. Basically the order states that persons 10 and older entering a public space are to wear a mask, but there is no penalty if you do not. The Judge is hoping that everyone complies, but if not then he may reconsider the no penalty, and add one.

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Considering the people that are wearing masks and wearing them wrong, I suspect it does little to no good. And the fact most people are wearing them for extended periods of time and breeding who knows what funk, we'll see how it plays out

I do like the ones that look like Jesse James though...

Dave

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1 hour ago, dmorrissette said:

Considering the people that are wearing masks and wearing them wrong, I suspect it does little to no good. And the fact most people are wearing them for extended periods of time and breeding who knows what funk, we'll see how it plays out

I do like the ones that look like Jesse James though...

Dave

I thought there was laws against breeding in public.

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5 hours ago, John Walker said:

I just went online to Hays County, and this is the same order that Judge Becerra issued on Thursday that took effect yesterday. It is still set to expire on 7/20/20. Basically the order states that persons 10 and older entering a public space are to wear a mask, but there is no penalty if you do not. The Judge is hoping that everyone complies, but if not then he may reconsider the no penalty, and add one.

Judge Becerra’s order also directs businesses to develop and implement a plan to ensure that patrons comply with mask use.   Penalties may be borne against the business, not the individual who declines to wear a mask

A person who declines to wear a mask may be denied entry to a business.   Business licenses/occupancy permits  may be pulled if egregious.  

At least 17 bars in the state have been closed by the ABC board for failing to follow distance requirements since this weekend
 

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We have pretty much the same here in MA. In my town there is no penalty for not wearing the mask, but if you don't, then you don't get past the front door. 

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This is a no win all round. The hotel cancelling because of govt. regulations would be the only lossless way out financially for IPMS-USA

  • Texas covid numbers are on the upswing
  • No way to team in close proximity. Only way might be to assign one senior judge to a category and let him/her make the pick.
  • Will enough judges (regular/senior/head) attend?
  • Euro & UK vendors can't leave their country even if they could get flights
  • A banquet???  how???
  • Controlling distancing/masks etc IF there are no limits on # of bodies in facility
  • IF it goes on and IF people go, they should be ready to be disappointed in the experience.

Believe me if there were answers forthcoming to all the above I'd be going as I have for the last 30 year but as of now I don't see any answers. So unfortunately I had to cancel my plane tix to avoid losing about$500.

IMHO, cancel or continue, IPMS USA still loses money. Maybe in future a date defined bail out clause should be included in contract (Caveat: I'm no attorney so I don't even know if that's possible)

Bright Note: IF it happens and IF you attend it might be pretty easy to win an award!  😀😀😀

 

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Why is there no response at all from either the Nats staff in Texas or from IPMS leadership? Shame on them.

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I’ve already decided to reduce the number of my entries to one or two, if it comes off. 

I have come to accept the National probably won’t happen this year because the Texas government can’t get their act together to deal with a pandemic. 

I’m sorry to be with the negative waves like Moriarty, but I’m not seeing a good ending for this. 

Dak

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David, I'm with you, unfortunately.  I'm also disappointed in the weak response from Texas leaders...and this includes most local as well as State.  Worse is the lack of common sense on the part of ordinary Texans. If the great majority had managed to rub two brain cells together, not only would this State be open and functioning, we wouldn't be having this discussion about the Nats.  We'd be looking forward to a great time in San Marcos.  Instead, a high percentage of Texans have demonstrated that they're at least one brain cell short of the number needed to rub together.  And before anyone says anything, you have no idea how much it pains me to make these comments about Texas.  I was born in Tennessee and got to Texas as soon as I could.  I'm a Southerner thru and thru and I expect better of Texans.

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