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Completely disagree with Kevin's assessment and think Nick hit it on the head. This is no win. Do you throw away three years of work plus costs or not. There is no good answer. As for hot spots or not, since it was reported by the media and the government, I have less than zero belief in any of it personally.

I will say that I am glad I am not on the Eboard this go around

 

Dave

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Greetings All

As these discussions go round and round ,information goes back and forth,I have a simple request. 
To All involved ...simply allow me to make my own decision. Go or stay at home , I simply request the ability to make my own decision and live with the consequences.

Thank You

Bill Dedig

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I am surprised that no one has posted this here or anywhere else on the the rules for the national convention.  This is on the main home page of IPMS.  It tells me that IPMS is aware for potential legal liability for injury resulting from catching Covid 19 by attending any contest or show and that the risk is higher than normal.  Each of us needs to decide if the risk is worth it, but we stand warned.  No complaining if you go and get sick.  You have been warned. 

Going forward, the following disclaimer needs to be added to all show flyers as well as your posting on the IPMS/USA event page:

“In light of the current pandemic situation, please be aware that neither IPMS/USA nor its Chapters are liable for any potential transmission of illnesses.  Those planning to attend this event should (a) follow existing safe social distancing recommendations and (b) abide by any local or state regulations regarding gatherings.” 

Edited by PeteJ
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An observation I would like to mention that I recently experienced.

 

I attended the IPMS Metro OKC SoonerCon 2020 show this weekend.  For this regional area, it was the first show held since all the shelter in place orders were set in motion back in March.

 

While traveling from Dallas to OKC that morning I wondered what it would be like.  Would people show? Will there be models? Are there going to be vendors?  To my surprise lots of people arrived.  Some made hotel reservations since their drive was from far distances (Houston, 8 hrs plus!).  There were many models on the contest tables and all the vendor room tables were sold out.  Upon arriving at the venue, all the necessary precautions were taken by the host club with mask, gloves and hand sanitizer being available if a visitor needed them.

 

I've attended past shows at OKC and this by far was one of the larger ones.  As model builders, we are an introverted group and keeping social distance was a natural thing to do. I listened and talked to many folks and a common theme was to support the local chapter as well as getting out and enjoying our hobby amongst old friends and peers with the same interests.  Some were just ready to be at a show since they haven’t been to one in so long.

 

A very successful show and supported by folks near and far and from all different age groups.

 

I read a news article about a month ago that caught my eye (can’t recall the publication).  It was an analogy about how we live with COVID and driving a car.  In life we have things or activities that have some amount of risk.  Some are riskier than others but it helps when we take necessary precautions to make it safer.  This is true as we go through daily life.

 

Driving a car has its own set of risks.  We know its usefulness for us but we make a choice to get in and allow it to take us from point A to B.  To make it safer for us the automaker has installed some safety measures like airbags, antilock brakes, defrosters, brake lights, seatbelts, etc.  When we get in, we make personal choices to make our travel more safe like adjusting the seat, using the seatbelt, adjusting the mirrors, using the turn signal, and making sure our passengers are wearing a seatbelt.  These precautions will not 100% guarantee our safety but it will increase our survivability in case an accident does happen along the way.

 

Living with COVID we have to make daily choices.  And when we do it is up to us to decide to take the precautions to make us safer.  Precautions by wearing a mask, gloves, using hand sanitizer and social distancing.  Moreover, what about destination and timing?  Grocery shop at 7 AM on a weekday versus Saturday afternoon?  Go to a crowed bar on Friday night?  Nothing is guaranteed 100% but our choices and precautions will allow us to increase our safety so we can live more fully when we do venture out.

 

There will be folks who cannot attend the 2020 Nationals for fear of getting sick.  That is OK. We are living in a strange time and this fear is valid.  Please stay home and hope you can attend the 2021 Nats.

 

For those who can attend please take the necessary precautions to allow you and those around you to have a very pleasant show.

 

Based on what I experienced at OKC, I believe people will support and attend the Nat’s because they love the hobby and want to reconnect with friends they have made over the years.  People will attend because it is going forward and because it is “THE IPMS NATIONALS”.  It will probably be the “Mask Wearing Nats” but it is still the Nats.

 

I just wanted to share an observation and the experience I had over the weekend in anticipation of a good show in San Marcos when we all do are part during this strange time.

 

Cheers! – Pat V.

 

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I have made a personal decision not to go to the NATS this year.  It will be the first one I've missed in some time.  My decision was based on COVID-19 and social responsibility for not being part of the problem.  I suggested previously that all NATS be pushed back one year which was disregarded.  I fear that this is going to be a financial disaster for the Texas team and they're going to need some help.  I'm not sure what that is going to look like yet, but I'm considering sending in my registration fee, even though I'm not attending.

We took a poll with our club which was meeting on Zoom and nobody was going this year.  There were different reasons provided such as vendors pulling out, poor attendance, etc., all of which is driven by this virus.  

Dave

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On 6/16/2020 at 11:03 AM, DWaples said:

I have made a personal decision not to go to the NATS this year.  It will be the first one I've missed in some time.  My decision was based on COVID-19 and social responsibility for not being part of the problem.  I suggested previously that all NATS be pushed back one year which was disregarded.  I fear that this is going to be a financial disaster for the Texas team and they're going to need some help.  I'm not sure what that is going to look like yet, but I'm considering sending in my registration fee, even though I'm not attending.

We took a poll with our club which was meeting on Zoom and nobody was going this year.  There were different reasons provided such as vendors pulling out, poor attendance, etc., all of which is driven by this virus.  

Dave

You weren't disregarded--several people explained that it is not that easy to just "push everything back by one year"--Vegas and Omaha (the next two hosts in 2021 and 2022, respectively) have already negotiated their contracts (contrary to popular belief, even though IPMS/USA takes care of the finances, each host negotiates their own deals with venues and hotels), and to push everything back would not only require San Marcos to renegotiate, it would require Vegas and Omaha to do the same.  Unless and until the Texas government decides to enact some sort of lockdown or shutdown, IPMS is at the mercy of Embassy Suites if they unilaterally decide to cancel, even with a Force Majeure clause in the contract.  Right now, Vegas and Omaha have zero reason to let people out of their contracts, so instead of taking one hit, IPMS will take three.  One will be bad enough.

Now, if the Texas Governor orders a shutdown down this year and the show gets cancelled, I am all for slotting the Texas guys into the schedule to host in 2023, after Vegas and Omaha.  They've worked their boo-hinds off, and they deserve to host a convention if theirs gets canned.

If I had planned to attend this year, I would have cancelled when we started seeing how unpredictable and lethal COVID-19 was.  To me, a model show is not worth jeopardizing my health over.  But right now, that decision has to be made at the personal level--some people are still raring to go, which is great.  Others have already cancelled, which is also okay.  As Bill said above, everyone has to decide for themselves if it is worth going or not. 

As the kids say these days, you be you.

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I am going. I think it should be the individuals choice whether to attend. I also plan on spending plenty there to help out the organizers. My wife said it is ok

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I really feel sorry for the guys from Texas.  Very much stuck between the cliff and the deep blue sea!  As I mentioned, I have canceled already because I am one of those who is unlikely to leave the hospital if I catch this bug.  Having said that, someone here said they had registered already but won't be going.  They decided to leave the registration fee as is, as a small effort to help out.  I was wondering if this really helps the group or is too little, too late?  If it helps then I would be all for doing the same and encouraging others to do so also. 

Edited by PeteJ

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6 hours ago, PeteJ said:

 
...  Having said that, someone here said they had registered already but won't be going.  They decided to leave the registration fee as is, as a small effort to help out.  I was wondering if this really helps the group or is too little, too late?  If it helps then I would be all for doing the same and encouraging others to do so also. 

You would probably help them better by buying one or more trophy packs.   Decals, pins, and typical swag bag items are cheap.   The cost of putting these sorts of things on are often in the awards.  They are obligated to provide upwards of 180 trophy sets, all awarded or not.    
 

Heck, we found un-awarded 2000 Dallas convention plaques when we cleaned out MAL Hobby last year

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I've updated my investigation on current and projected Wuhan restrictions in San Marcos.  They remain, as I read them, as a limit of 50% capacity on nearly all businesses and events.  I asked earlier how the Nats plans to operate within the ES with this restriction.  I still don't know.

I am scheduled for another major hobby event in September.  This event has published, in a prominent way, exactly the precautions and requirements that will be enforced for the attendees.

My current thinking is that I will not attend.  Based upon the lack of information on what I may expect.  I'm willing to make a personal risk decision if I have substantial information on the restrictions and precautions I can expect.  I'm not willing to take a personal risk without that information.

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Friends, let me jump in right here and remind us all of this very important rule regarding the use of these forums:

  • Prohibited behavior:

    • Trolling. Do not annoy or provoke other members or forum staff to "stir the pot" or encourage discord (see Wil Wheaton rule above). Do not "flame" or incite other members to perpetuate an argument. Personal attacks or name-calling are not permitted and will get you kicked from the forums quicker than any other action.

Thus far this thread has been relatively civil with the exception of a couple of posts that skirt the line of violating the above listed rule.

Keep it civil.

Let's look at this thread as a way to share our ideas (peacefully and respectfully) with our fellow modelers, particularly those making decisions related to The Nats, in an effort to help them make the best choice possible.

Thanks for your support.

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The number of COVID-19 cases continues to rise in Texas, and the governor has not indicated any willingness to deal with the situation as long as there are hospital beds available. “Open for business as usual” seems to be the official policy. Hays County (San Marcos) is one of the hot spots. I’d have thought we’d have heard more from the host chapter and national officers at this point as to how they plan to deal with a worsening situation. As things stand now, I will not be attending and will be cancelling my hotel reservation.

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7 hours ago, SkyKing said:

The number of COVID-19 cases continues to rise in Texas, and the governor has not indicated any willingness to deal with the situation as long as there are hospital beds available. “Open for business as usual” seems to be the official policy. Hays County (San Marcos) is one of the hot spots. I’d have thought we’d have heard more from the host chapter and national officers at this point as to how they plan to deal with a worsening situation. As things stand now, I will not be attending and will be cancelling my hotel reservation.

I agree. They need to probably consider cancelling. I'm booked to go...but more and more on the fence about it the more I hear about the cases going up in the general area (Austin/San. Marcos/Hays County). I want to be there as much as the next guy but I think it is going to be a lack luster Nats at this point anyway.

The silence from the organizers is becoming deafening.

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Why not give the organizers the benefit of the doubt? They have been living with this nightmare since the beginning of the year. They realize the financial problems /health problems, etc. that this thing poses.

Lots of moving parts here, contracts, etc. I am sure they are trying to come to a decision that will hurt the society the least. The organizers may be better off not saying anything right now until the organizers and hotel do their due diligence coping with this mess, I am sure there are legal matters involved. .

What difference does it make if the Nationals are cancelled  tomorrow or a month from now? I rather doubt that anyone here has his/her stuff packed up and in the car waiting to head to San Marcos. Is it going to affect your building schedule? If it is held, then you  are still building to a completion date that you planned for.  If your model is finished and you can't go there will be another Nationals, just keep the dust and cats away from your model. There are some here ( and on  other sites) who have been advocating a cancellation since February, with some not so subtle "virtue signaling"  thrown in. Others are anxious to get the show on the road. Fine, to each his/her own. Eventually we will know but we do not know right now,  but other than posting and talking  whether it is a go / no-go it is not going to affect your life to any great degree.

Edited by patd

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8 hours ago, patd said:

Why not give the organizers the benefit of the doubt? They have been living with this nightmare since the beginning of the year. They realize the financial problems /health problems, etc. that this thing poses.

Lots of moving parts here, contracts, etc. I am sure they are trying to come to a decision that will hurt the society the least. The organizers may be better off not saying anything right now until the organizers and hotel do their due diligence coping with this mess, I am sure there are legal matters involved. .

What difference does it make if the Nationals are cancelled  tomorrow or a month from now? I rather doubt that anyone here has his/her stuff packed up and in the car waiting to head to San Marcos. Is it going to affect your building schedule? If it is held, then you  are still building to a completion date that you planned for.  If your model is finished and you can't go there will be another Nationals, just keep the dust and cats away from your model. There are some here ( and on  other sites) who have been advocating a cancellation since February, with some not so subtle "virtue signaling"  thrown in. Others are anxious to get the show on the road. Fine, to each his/her own. Eventually we will know but we do not know right now,  but other than posting and talking  whether it is a go / no-go it is not going to affect your life to any great degree.

Well said Pat.

Regards

Bill

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14 hours ago, patd said:

What difference does it make if the Nationals are cancelled  tomorrow or a month from now? I rather doubt that anyone here has his/her stuff packed up and in the car waiting to head to San Marcos. 

 

I, for one, have held off making the final portion for our group entry display. The rest is built and we designed it to be reusable for the foreseeable future.

An item that is around $200 that may or may not be used this year (the durability of these things in storage is a potential issue) is a factor in our chapter's planning.

There are two local chapters here, and one has already decided against sending that group's display entry as their chapter leadership has opted out of attendance for health reasons (the doctor said NO!) but it will hold for a year. I just might enter my contribution and see how it fares.

For others, there is the consideration of time off work, travel arrangements (especially airfare) and other cost factors that might not be so easy to recoup at the last minute. Last-minute cancellation fees are not always consumer freindly.

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20 hours ago, jcorley said:

For others, there is the consideration of time off work, travel arrangements (especially airfare) and other cost factors that might not be so easy to recoup at the last minute. Last-minute cancellation fees are not always consumer freindly.

👆 This ...this is why we want to know if it is go or no go and when a  "💩 of get off the pot " call will be made.

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OK, my previous post skirted the edge or trolling and I was told by others how rude and so forth that I was. I apologize for any offense I gave. No one was talking about it (the previous post on the subject was like 3 weeks prior) and I figured it would get some discussion going. It did. I was just a little too - as my fellow Phoenix chapter members remind me often - a little too curmudgeonly.

We have to be realistic about whether or not the show can go on. As was just pointed out, work schedules, travel arrangements and not incurring a cancellation penalty at hotels and the like all come into play and require some advance notice. And over and above us regular attendees, what about the vendors? They really need some advance time to know if things are a go or not.

Beyond schedules and such, there is the matter of safety precautions if the show does still happen. Will the Nats organizers REQUIRE everyone to wear a mask? No exceptions. This is not a political issue, it is a health issue.  And how will social distancing be carried out in the vendor room (how far apart will the vendor tables be and how many people allowed in to the vendor space at any one time) and in the model room? Nats are crowded. Model tables are crowded. How do you avoid that. And then the judging - and yes, I am a judge of many years standing. Judges crowd together to examine the models. How is that to be done SAFELY? And what about the banquet? Can you even consider a banquet when the proper spacing likely cannot be arranged (and if it can, I would like to hear that from the chapter organizers) - and how do you social distance when the awards are announced and everyone crowds into the banquet room. I don't see how this can all be done.

What I found so upsetting to me - and I still do -  is the silence from those in charge of this Nats. Considering everything involved, that is simply unacceptable - maybe I'm the only one that finds the silence so, or maybe I've just missed some responses from them, but I would think others among our fraternity would also find what I perceive as silence to be unacceptable.

I truly do not see how this Nats can be put on this year. And that's not rude or uncaring or anything like that. Yes, going is everyone's individual choice, but we should not have to be in a position of deciding which is a greater priority - our possible health or our hobby. Leaders sometimes have to make decisions which are not popular among  a few or even many, but they have to make those decisions which are in the best interest of everyone. And before anyone pops up with an anecdotal story about how they attended this or that meeting or contest and everyone is fine, etc., just look at the numbers. Texas is a hotspot. As is my own state of Arizona. This virus is real. It is not going to magically fade away overnight. It is not a media opportunity. It is not the flu. It is real. And for those of us in the higher risk categories, it can be deadly. But, of course, we still want to go (we modelers are really just big little kids and we want what we want and we do not want to be disappointed and so many of us will go despite the risks) and that is why those in charge, whether at the national or local level need to make a realistic appraisal and acknowledge that this is a lost year - for the sake of everyone's health and peace of mind.

Would that be a disappointing decision? Of course. We've had 3 Nats in Phoenix and I was very much involved with the first 2. I know the work and effort that goes into a Nats by those who put it on. I know how disappointing and possibly costly cancelling a Nats would be. But I see how much more costly in human terms it could be if it does go on and people get sick and possibly die. That is something no one could then wash their hands of.

That is why I plead with the leadership to do what is necessary. For all our sakes.

Kevin Wenker

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Well said, Kevin. My sentiments exactly.

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1 hour ago, RevZoom said:

OK, my previous post skirted the edge or trolling and I was told by others how rude and so forth that I was. I apologize for any offense I gave. No one was talking about it (the previous post on the subject was like 3 weeks prior) and I figured it would get some discussion going. It did. I was just a little too - as my fellow Phoenix chapter members remind me often - a little too curmudgeonly.

We have to be realistic about whether or not the show can go on. As was just pointed out, work schedules, travel arrangements and not incurring a cancellation penalty at hotels and the like all come into play and require some advance notice. And over and above us regular attendees, what about the vendors? They really need some advance time to know if things are a go or not.

Beyond schedules and such, there is the matter of safety precautions if the show does still happen. Will the Nats organizers REQUIRE everyone to wear a mask? No exceptions. This is not a political issue, it is a health issue.  And how will social distancing be carried out in the vendor room (how far apart will the vendor tables be and how many people allowed in to the vendor space at any one time) and in the model room? Nats are crowded. Model tables are crowded. How do you avoid that. And then the judging - and yes, I am a judge of many years standing. Judges crowd together to examine the models. How is that to be done SAFELY? And what about the banquet? Can you even consider a banquet when the proper spacing likely cannot be arranged (and if it can, I would like to hear that from the chapter organizers) - and how do you social distance when the awards are announced and everyone crowds into the banquet room. I don't see how this can all be done.

What I found so upsetting to me - and I still do -  is the silence from those in charge of this Nats. Considering everything involved, that is simply unacceptable - maybe I'm the only one that finds the silence so, or maybe I've just missed some responses from them, but I would think others among our fraternity would also find what I perceive as silence to be unacceptable.

I truly do not see how this Nats can be put on this year. And that's not rude or uncaring or anything like that. Yes, going is everyone's individual choice, but we should not have to be in a position of deciding which is a greater priority - our possible health or our hobby. Leaders sometimes have to make decisions which are not popular among  a few or even many, but they have to make those decisions which are in the best interest of everyone. And before anyone pops up with an anecdotal story about how they attended this or that meeting or contest and everyone is fine, etc., just look at the numbers. Texas is a hotspot. As is my own state of Arizona. This virus is real. It is not going to magically fade away overnight. It is not a media opportunity. It is not the flu. It is real. And for those of us in the higher risk categories, it can be deadly. But, of course, we still want to go (we modelers are really just big little kids and we want what we want and we do not want to be disappointed and so many of us will go despite the risks) and that is why those in charge, whether at the national or local level need to make a realistic appraisal and acknowledge that this is a lost year - for the sake of everyone's health and peace of mind.

Would that be a disappointing decision? Of course. We've had 3 Nats in Phoenix and I was very much involved with the first 2. I know the work and effort that goes into a Nats by those who put it on. I know how disappointing and possibly costly cancelling a Nats would be. But I see how much more costly in human terms it could be if it does go on and people get sick and possibly die. That is something no one could then wash their hands of.

That is why I plead with the leadership to do what is necessary. For all our sakes.

Kevin Wenker

Hi Kevin:

I think beyond the obvious money and effort, there is a complete lack of faith in the medical reporting and government support. In Ohio (where most things are open), more cases are getting reported BUT that is concurrent with much more testing. And, the problem is most cases are not symptomatic enough to make this any worse than a cold. One of our friends missed one day of work feeling ill. Got tested a week later and found out she had had it. We had a women at church with an extremely compromised immune system. She was in intensive care. Seems to effect people differently. 

At this point, football is going ahead- college, high school and pro with testing. But they canceled the Cleveland Airshow which has a smaller daily attendance that OSU football. The local grape festival in late Sept is also canceled but the high school schedule remains. I assume this is all driven by dollars but the lack of consistency is remarkable and I can't see how anyone can make an informed intelligent decision when the info is so contradictory.

I will say that IPMS is a risk group. Not a young bunch. 

I would also like to see a vendor update. I can't see how Zoukei Mura or Eduard could possibly attend considering the travel

Time will tell

Dave

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Dave,

More testing is not causing more Covid cases. I know the powers that be in government would have us think so, but that is not the scientific realty. Testing is up 17% in Arizona. Covid cases are up 138%. Infection rate among those tested is 7.8% - that is a jump from 5.3%. That is most definitely not the result of more testing. This is a result of our opening up in Arizona way too early and few people taking precautions once we did. Florida the same. Texas is very, very similar. And the San Marcos area is a hotspot.

As to the effects of Covid: some people have very mild symtoms. A Pastor friend of mine in his late 40s in good health was mildly affected. Others - us older ones or those with health issues are very seriously affected. The Assistant Pastor of this friend of mine - in his early 40s ended up in ICU for 9 days. A lot depends on the viral load a person receives. And that is a direct result of social distancing or not and wearing a mask or not.

I truly wonder if we will have football or not. Hope so as I would hate to think of the time I would have wasted on drafting my fantasy teams. In all seriousness, tough, I tend to doubt there will be football - college or pro.

And you are right about so much being driven by dollars. 4 casinos repoened in Arizona - and have now had to shut their doors for at least a couple weeks. Vegas is shutting down again. With this virus there is no such thing as a free lunch.

And as you point out, considering the age group of IPMS, that is why I am so concerned about the Nats.

Kevin

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It's really quite simple. IPMS has to wait as long as they can to see if The state will impose more restrictions that will allow IPMS out of the contract. If IPMS cancells now they are on the hook for 6 figures. At some point though if the state stays open then IPMS will have to make a hard call . But we are not there yet. It may very well be that IPMS intends to cancel, but they can't at this point since we are still hoping that the state will shut its doors letting IPMS off the hook.

      Now as others have stated, its all up to each of us to make a our own personal decision wheather to go or not if the convention is held.  So I would say don't wait for IPMS to make the decision for you, make your own informed decision based on your own circumstances. 

    So let's all just wait and see what happens and let this play out.

 

Jim

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Just in the interest of factual information, Vegas has not shut down again. Arizona’s situation is a bit different, and authorities here are watching it carefully, but the large Vegas casinos that opened are still open, though some additional restrictions are being added. 
 

joe

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Thanks for correction about Vegas. I was under the misunderstanding the bigger casinos had to close again. Additional restrictions only

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Hi All,

Las Vegas is entering Phase 3 of our reopening.  Most casinos and resort are open again and activity on The Strip is about 50% of normal.  I was down there on Saturday and was pleased to see all the cars and people about again.  

I spoke to The Rio where we are holding the 2021 Nats and they too are open and don't expect any problems moving forward.  In fact they reported that they are overwhelmed with new and re-bookings for 2021 and 2022.  They are very excited to be hosting IPMS USA in 21' and everything is moving forward on schedule.  Bob

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