Dakimbrell Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 Ok guys, you win. Covid19 is nothing to be concerned about. Masks don’t work so there is no point in even trying. Filter masks don’t stop you from breathing in paint fumes when you airbrush your model. Asbestos and smoking doesn’t cause cancer. Drinking alcohol doesn’t impare driving. Hard hats and safety goggles are worthless. Seatbelts and airbags have no effect. Sharks aren’t attracted to blood. Smoking at the gas pump is perfectly safe. Denial is a wonderful thing. So, when IPMS gets sued because they failed to follow CDC guidelines and several die, we can deal with that then. We’ll never be sued? We have worried about a lot less over the years. FYI, I have four nurses in my family and they will not go out without a mask these days. Dak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghodges Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) No David.....NO one "wins"....and NO ONE is in denial. It's simply a matter that this is still the USA, and you cannot make DEMANDS on others in order to make YOU feel safer. If you are SO concerned, as you sincerely seem to be, then you should not attend. With your point of view, and sincere concerns, I do not see how the convention planners could EVER take enough precautions or make enough changes to make you feel completely safe, and that deosn't even include the travel "risks" you'll have to deal with coming and going. And seriously...are you actually trying to compare the size of paint particles to VIRUSES?? THAT is truly intellectually dishonest! But then you seem so intent on making everyone else as fearful as yourself, it doesn't surprise me. You may not like the dissent in thought on the virus, but it is EVERYWHERE, in the medical community, the media, the government, as well as among we individuals. So if you cannot accept the fact that not everyone feels as you do, but MUST conform to your demands so you can feel better or safer, then as I suggested before; stay home and build models for 2021. Gil Edited June 22, 2020 by ghodges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ww2nut Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 These circular discussions are entertaining, but I’m waiting to see how it will be run, which depends, I’m sure, on local rules, CDC guidance, and best practices in play at the time. I’ll likely make my decision about two weeks out based on knowns at that time. I feel for the organizers, have paid my registration including the banquet, and bought a trophy package. I don’t want a refund if it cancels, just hoping it helps in some small way. If it doesn’t cancel, it’s just a choice we all have to make based on what we think the level of risk is for ourselves and others. I have my own ideas, and each person should evaluate their own risk tolerance. My profession is all about risk management, so I look at this the same way. joe 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 Well, I’m already registered and have sponsored two trophy packages. Three, if you count my club sponsoring one. Certainly, you can tell people what to do and wear. No shirt, no shoes, no service is seen in many businesses. You are required to wear seatbelts in most states. Hard hats on construction sites. Do you ignore the seatbelt light on the airplane? Would you take your gun into a store with a no firearms sign? I remember the outrage over stopping people from smoking in a restaurant. IT WAS THEIR RIGHT TO SMOKE ANYWHERE THEY WANTED! Or so they thought. We now say you can’t take pictures during judging. Isn’t that my right as as a paid attendee and member of IPMS. What is a personal right is often dependent on the venue. Why being required to wear a mask upsets so many, ....is such an unbearable burden....I will never understand. I can sympathize with the blackout wardens during the Blitz. What will you do if the hotel or local government requires wearing masks? Will you comply or stay home in protest? Dak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bucholtz Posted June 22, 2020 Report Share Posted June 22, 2020 "Why being required to wear a mask upsets so many, ....is such an unbearable burden....I will never understand." Agreed. It's meant to protect others, in case you're infected and don't know it. To me, not wearing a mask is like purposely farting in public, only with possibly fatal consequences. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Chris Bucholtz said: "Why being required to wear a mask upsets so many, ....is such an unbearable burden....I will never understand." Agreed. It's meant to protect others, in case you're infected and don't know it. To me, not wearing a mask is like purposely farting in public, only with possibly fatal consequences. A most excellent point! Dak Edited June 23, 2020 by Dakimbrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Walker Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 David, If you are wearing a mask to protect yourself as in your paint fumes example above, why do you then need others to wear a mask too? How does that further protect you? Honestly, at this point I'd like to just say let's agree to disagree. This is going pretty far afield and neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bucholtz Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Your metaphor is faulty. If you suffer lung damage from inhaling too many paint fumes, it's terrible - but it isn't contagious to others. Wearing a mask in a pandemic is less to protect you than to protect OTHER PEOPLE. If I have to explain to you why it's important to care about other people, we really don't have anything to talk about. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, John Walker said: David, If you are wearing a mask to protect yourself as in your paint fumes example above, why do you then need others to wear a mask too? How does that further protect you? Honestly, at this point I'd like to just say let's agree to disagree. This is going pretty far afield and neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. In this case John, we are in a public, but closed space, and your casual cough may spread your asymptomatic Covid19 filled spittle into the air I'm breathing, or deposit it onto the table I happen to touch a few minutes after your cough. You would not just throw a snot filled tissue on the floor of the model room, would you? You would not just spit on the floor either...I hope. I remember sitting in restaurants with cigarette smoke drifting across from the next table. Now we know second hand smoke is dangerous too. Like I say, you guys win. The Covid19 crisis is all made up and there is no problem. Dak Edited June 23, 2020 by Dakimbrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevZoom Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 G Hodges and his Me Only attitude is exactly why I am not going to the Nats. I'm sure he will say, Great, your choice, you won't be missed. No, probably not (although I have done rather well model wise over the years), but it is a shame when a few can essentially dictate the decisions others are forced to make by having only concern for themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Yes, I have been re-evaluating the whole thing. Depending on what happens nationally in the next month, I may go, but not enter any models to avoid excessive contact. Dak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Walker Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Chris & David, I don't disagree with either of you about protecting others, and I'm a bit insulted that you would think that I would be so cavalier about the health of others. I'm not adverse to wearing a mask. The point I was trying to put across is if a mask can keep the virus in why won't it keep it out? See what I'm saying? It can't be both ways, IE: keep the virus in but not out. As an engineer things like this bug me. It may constrain cough spittle, but if you can breath through the mask it won't stop the virus. And Chris, my point with David's paint example wasn't to compare the virus to non contagious paint fumes, but to illustrate that you wear a mask when painting to protect yourself from the fumes, not others. That said, what I think I'm hearing from both of you is that you wear a mask to protect others? That it doesn't protect you? At any rate, I'm not sure how this conversation has come down to masks, or not, what they do, or don't do, who they protect, or don't, but I don't really have a dog in this fight, so I'm done with the subject of masks and I'm quitting before I get accused of being Attila the Hun (I'm joking!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Walker Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, JClark said: Kevin Look at what you just wrote... First we can only be responsible for ourselves and make decisions thusly. If that is what you are construing as a me only attitude them I have to ask , really?. Your last sentence takes the cake because that is exactly what you are doing by advocating for the outright cancelation of the event. This whole "I can't go and feel safe, so no one else should be able to go either attitude" to me is mind boggling. How is having the event preventing you from NOT going? how in anyway is that dictating decisions others are forced to make? If anything its the other way around , YOU WANT TO DICTATE what others can and can't do by outright cancelation of the event. Jim Jim, I was sitting here thinking a response to Kevin, but you beat me to it and hit every point I would have made. Kevin, People disagree, you may be correct, you may not be. You make decisions for you and I'll make decisions for me. OK? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Repeated tests are showing masks of any type are better than no mask in REDUCING the spread. No one says anything but distance really stops it. In a room with a couple hundred people at any given time, the temperature and humidity go up. In the vendor’s room, we will have the added effect of people touch lots of stuff. People will get closer together than they should. Throughout the world we daily rely on safety equipment. None of it is guaranteed to stop anything, but it gives you a fighting chance. We also accept many things in today’s society we would not 30 years ago. We currently worry about a child seeing a naked lady, concentration camp stuff, or a soldier peeing. But some how, asking everyone to wear a mask is a horrid violation of your civil rights. If a family comes to the show and contracts Covid19 resulting in a long hospitalization or death, IPMS could be held responsible if we do not follow CDC guidelines. We can’t guarantee no one will catch something. But we can take precautions. Simply requiring the wearing of masks is good faith start. A lot can happen in 36 days. Today,Texas hit 112,944 documented cases with 2191 fatalities, according to John Hopkins Start watching the daily spikes. Dak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 Then those who don’t want to wear a mask should not attend, IMO. Dak 8 minutes ago, John Walker said: Jim, I was sitting here thinking a response to Kevin, but you beat me to it and hit every point I would have made. Kevin, People disagree, you may be correct, you may not be. You make decisions for you and I'll make decisions for me. OK? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Walker Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 David, Having said that I was done with arguing about masks, I do have this last to say. In an earlier post I mentioned that the Hays County Judge currently has a mandatory mask policy in place that is set to expire on 7/20/20. I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd bet that the mandatory mask order gets extended. So all of this may be academic. Hope you do come to San Marcos. I'd like to get to meet you in person if for no other reason than to show I'm not such a big jerk. Take care, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevZoom Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 John, I was not referring to you in any way. You never said you would refuse to wear a mask. Not wanting to and refusing are two different things altogether. Personally, I wear a face shield which is more effective in both directions - incoming and outgoing. More comfortable, too. So, if you took me as referring to you: No, I wans't and sorry if you got that impression. Was not intended. Jim, yes, it does sound contradictory till you consider what I said earlier. I am going to presume that masks will not be mandatory and, if they are, there will be a number of people who will refuse and nothing at all will be done. I advocate cancelling on the presumption that the necessary safety precauutions will not be taken - masks or face shields, no banquet or one that is truly spread out, no crowding at the awards ceremony, vendor tables well spaced and limited numbers of people in the vendor room and so forth. So, yes, unless those precautions are undertaken, I think cancelling is appropriate. I still won't be going but that is my choice. I do not want to take any chance of bringing it home to my wife who has asthma. That could be a death sentence. Since I will be 70 this year and have diabetes, the same applies to me. Now, with that in mind, you said we are only responsible for ourselves. I would disagree. The age old question: Am I my brother's keeper? The answer is yes, I am. I am responsible to my brother/sister/neighbor in the sense that I will do what is necessary to make sure I am not putting them at risk by a selfish action I would do. And it is the exact opposite attitude which I see among so many these days that distresses me. As someone said above, it may all be moot if the mask/face shield mandate is extended - except for this one factor - will IPMS staff enforce it? Peace Kevin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewWhite Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 TX has implemented mandatory wearing of masks...so we can move on from that argument. 😷 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 As I said, a lot can happen in 36 days. Dak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFGrune Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, AndrewWhite said: TX has implemented mandatory wearing of masks...so we can move on from that argument. 😷 Point of information. As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewWhite Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, EFGrune said: Point of information. As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order. My mistake... Argument, back on! 😐🍿 ‼️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedge3 Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 You what would be really helpful, some input from leadership. Maybe an update, maybe scenarios, maybe some information.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewWhite Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, jedge3 said: You what would be really helpful, some input from leadership. Maybe an update, maybe scenarios, maybe some information.... Not since MAY 31st... 🕰️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakimbrell Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 I have heard a rumor that the San Marcos Convention only has about a hundred pre-registered attendees. I do not know if this is typical or not as I always register as early as possible and never given it much thought, however, it does not sound good. I expected to see some drop off because of loss of income and illness or fear of contracting the Covid19 virus, but I have know idea how much. A good clear statement is needed from the convention and IPMS leadership to clarify the situation. And to clearly establish what safety steps they plan to take assuming it all goes on as planned. Masks, or no masks, social distancing, will the hotel bar be open, what specifically is the hotel requiring convention attendees to do? I know things can change over night, but we know it won't before the better. Keeping people clearly informed is the best way to instill confidence. Dak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewWhite Posted June 23, 2020 Report Share Posted June 23, 2020 7 hours ago, EFGrune said: Point of information. As of Tuesday morning (23_June) there is no statewide mandatory mask order. Governor Abbott has expressed concern about the infection and hospitalization rate, but has declined to issue a statewide order. Point of Information: Hays County (San Marcos...) Judge orders Face Masks: https://www.sanmarcostx.gov/3084/COVID-19-Orders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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