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Nats 2020 & COVID-19 Update


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I saw a description of pandemic relief as a three legged stool.  Leg one is self quarinitine and social distancing to reduce spread.  Leg two was an effective treatment after someone developes it.  Leg three of the stool is a vacine to prevent people from getting it.  Right now we only have one leg(distancing) and the hint of a second leg(treatments that are showing promise but aren't a sure thing). It is very difficult to stand on such a stool with confidance.  I have had three heart procudures since March(the last one in a covid restricted hospital) and much as I would like to attend(had my reservations already) I am not going to sit on that stool this year.  Hope to see you all in Vegas

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Just now, PeteJ said:

I saw a description of pandemic relief as a three legged stool.  Leg one is self quarinitine and social distancing to reduce spread.  Leg two was an effective treatment after someone developes it.  Leg three of the stool is a vacine to prevent people from getting it.  Right now we only have one leg(distancing) and the hint of a second leg(treatments that are showing promise but aren't a sure thing). It is very difficult to stand on such a stool with confidance.  I have had three heart procudures since March(the last one in a covid restricted hospital) and much as I would like to attend(had my reservations already) I am not going to sit on that stool this year.  Hope to see you all in Vegas

Oh, and by the way is anyone interested in picking up my reservation at the Embassy Suites?

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On 5/11/2020 at 1:25 PM, JClark said:

Gary if I may answer your points.

   1) We can't postpone/cancel UNLESS you want to organization to eat a 100k bill. We (IPMS) would have to pay the convention center, decorators (IE Tables) not to mention AV costs , food requirements by backing out of the contract that was signed 2 years ago . Plus add in awards that are already manufactured WITH DATES ON THEM.  

  2) No one here or in IPMS would be taking responsibility for anyone attending, that is on the individual attending. It is your choice to go or not. We all have taken a chance every year by attending and catching anything that may be out there. We do not live in a sterile world. So no one is playing "Fast and Loose". Living is a medical risk until death happens.

 3) Agreed it is not required to attend , so again you have the freedom of choice to come or not. 

What I do take exception to is this. Your assumption that anyone who decides to go if the convention is held in somehow insane because they may not agree with your opinion. We all take calculated Risks in life. I drove 5k miles last year to attend, and I would say the odds of being involved in an accident were greater than the odds of catching something and dying of it this year. 

Do I want the convention canceled? Well at the end of the day my or anyone else's opinion doesn't really matter. What matters are contracts and how local governments decide to do business which directly affects those contracts.

 

Jim

Jim,

I have waited to respond until I had a free few minutes, as you are obviously mad and I wanted to try an understand why.

First this is a friendly conversation and no need to get ugly.   Second you need to read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.  If you don't like it address it, but be better than accusing me of writing something I did not about character.

What does concern me is a 6 figure contact being signed with no legal consultation, and the fact that no contract insurance was purchased.   I would be willing to bet though, that if the committee did sat down for a meaningful discussion with the facility, that a deal could be worked out for rescheduling the event until 2023 with minimal if any additional costs, given the current world environment.   Cancelling the event completely, or going forward with a very small event that looses money are not in either parties best interests.

I guess I would feel better if NATS Committee had a conversation to explore possible rescheduling until 2023 vs acting like we have no way out.   So far all we have been told is that the convention center has been receptive to re-negotiation if there is a problem.   I say that such a problem is here right now.   

You all be safe<

Gary

 

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We in Las Vegas are all saddened by the recent turn of events and how it may impact our IPMS brothers and sisters in San Marcos.  Naturally, the National Convention Committee and the boys in San Marcos can count on our support in every possible.  Let’s continue to hope that the situation improves in the next few weeks resulting in the 20’ Nats going off without a hitch. 

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On 4/27/2020 at 12:43 AM, SkyKing said:

Is there any chance it could simply be postponed until next year? This what the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society have done. Their 2020 convention, which was to have been held in Albuquerque in late June, will now be held there next year.

I note too, that IPMS North Central Texas has cancelled ScaleFest, which was to have been June 6.

The 2020 Astronomical League Convention (ALCON) was also to be held in Albuquerque this summer.  It has been moved to 2021. 

But that was relatively easy.  First, there had been no bidder for a 2021 convention, so the Astronomical League was very happy to fill that gap.  Second, the Embassy Suites was cooperative, especially in light of the force majeure clause in the contract. Our exposure was $76K, but the exposure was the League's, not the local club's. And third, our financial analysis indicated that we would loose our shirt, pants, and cowboy hats if we pressed on.  Registrations had simply stopped; vendors refused to commit, and speakers were bailing out.

HST, I was the Registrar for ALCON, but have bowed out for 2021.  Although about 80% of our registration team's preparatory work had been done, I wasn't willing to add another year to the already year and a half's work (hundreds of hours) which had blown my 2020 summer to shreds. 

Our club bailed out over two months ago; and it has become clear that we  made the correct decision.

Edited by Highlander
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First, I want to make it very clear that I sympathize with the plight of IPMS, and in particular with the host group.  Further, I am not in a position to offer an informed opinion about the IPMS 2020 convention without seeing the actual contract with the venue.

However, I do have an oversight position with a couple of other international conventions.  For one of them, our host hotel is also a Hilton-brand property (as is the San Marcos Embassy Suite), albeit in another town.   Here is the key clause for my group's contract:

FORCE MAJEURE: Should events beyond the control of the Hotel/Venue or Group, such as acts of God, war, strike, civil disorder, curtailment or interruption of transportation facilities, threats or acts of terrorism or similar acts, State Department travel advisory, civil disturbance, or any other emergency of a comparable nature beyond the parties‟ control, making it impossible, illegal or which materially affects a party‟s ability to perform its obligations under this Agreement as they relate to the Meeting, such party may cancel the Agreement without liability upon written notice to the other party. In the event Group decides to hold its Meeting despite such circumstances, the Hotel shall waive any fees related to a reduced-sized Meeting (including any room and food and beverage attrition fees and any function space rental fees) and shall offer the Group‟s guests any lower room rate offered to guests during the contracted dates.

Is it safe to assume that it has been confirmed that there is no similar clause in the San Marcos contract?

On other fronts, is the date for the 2022 IPMS convention known?

Respectfully,

David Doyle

Edited by ddoyle
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Dave Doyle, thanks for the quote on your force majeure clause.  In general,  force majeure applies if forces or events beyond the control of one or both parties cause one or both parties to be unable to fullfill their contractual obligation.  One line of logic is that, if the Embassy Suites is open and local regulations permit the Embassy Suites full exercise of their contractual obligations, then IPMS would have to show that it is unable to fulfill its contractual obligations.  That is doubtful.  But it depends upon the specific wording of the clause and whether IPMS wants to hire lawyers.  It also depends upon the goodwill of the ES, which, as related here, does not seem to exist.  Our ES was willing to work with us and we have been impressed with their goodwill.

Having worked the budget for our convention for almost two years, I am intimately familiar with our spending plan.  Due to cash flow, we delayed spending until the last moment (with a buffer for various delays and catastrophies).  Even though we had a good chunk of money from the Astronomical League, we did not project sufficient cash to purchase shirts, programs, bags, and other paraphernalia until about five weeks before the convention.  It appears that the Nats cash flow allowed significant purchases further out than did ours.

We had signed our contract with the ES about sixteen months before our convention.  But, when the Wuhan appeared on the scene, we addressed the ramifications beginning in January and pulled the plug on our convention in mid-February.  That limited both our exposure and freed the ES to book other events in July, if warranted.

Having been there, I emphatically sympathize with San Marcos.  They seem to be pinned and have to choose between the lesser of two financial and scheduling evils.

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Hi Jim,

Nor am I an attorney.  That said, in the case of my event, we typically have a significant international attendance.  As that is not possible presently, that "...materially affects a party's ability to perform..."  I'd further plea that given the social distancing standards established by CDC, coupled with the high percentage of "high risk" membership of the group, that further affects an ability to perform.

That said, all this is immaterial, since we've not seen the IPMS contract, and we aren't lawyers - but hopefully someone has looked into this area.

PS: I'd still REALLY like to know the dates for the coming Omaha  convention.

Best,

David

www.DavidDoyleBooks.com

Edited by ddoyle
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And just today it was revealed that a coronavirus breakout had been discovered at the Amazon warehouse/fulfillment center in San Marcos.

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/hays/multiple-employees-at-amazon-warehouse-in-san-marcos-test-positive-for-covid-19/

Edited by SkyKing
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/19/2020 at 11:02 PM, ddoyle said:

FORCE MAJEURE: Should events beyond the control of the Hotel/Venue or Group, such as acts of God, war, strike, civil disorder, curtailment or interruption of transportation facilities, threats or acts of terrorism or similar acts, State Department travel advisory, civil disturbance, or any other emergency of a comparable nature beyond the parties‟ control, making it impossible, illegal or which materially affects a party‟s ability to perform its obligations under this Agreement as they relate to the Meeting, such party may cancel the Agreement without liability upon written notice to the other party. In the event Group decides to hold its Meeting despite such circumstances, the Hotel shall waive any fees related to a reduced-sized Meeting (including any room and food and beverage attrition fees and any function space rental fees) and shall offer the Group‟s guests any lower room rate offered to guests during the contracted dates.

Acts of God (Pandemic) - check (unless it is proven that the Chinese manipulated the virus, then it becomes an act of war, so check anyways)

civil disorder - check

curtailment or interruption of transportation facilities - check

State Department travel advisory - check (for foreign attendees, anyway)

Any other emergency of a comparable nature beyond the parties‟ control - check

 

At one point, I believe, the EB required event insurance. If not, the only way to cancel this would be if the facility closes.

Either way, it should certainly be required in the future.

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I have not decided if I will attend.  My immediate concern is lack of detail on the measures that will be taken and the actions that will be required to make the Nats "safer".  To date, all I've seen is that the San Marcos requirements will be followed.

At last check, San Marcos allows 50% capacity for events and facilities.  How will that work at a Nats?

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I registered last night for the Nats. Short of it being cancelled, I plan on attending. This WILL be a totally different feel due to whatever restrictions are still in place, as well as people taking personal actions to keep themselves safe if they feel the need. The vendors area will be smaller, but I'm betting I can still drop more cash than I budgeted....there will be fewer models overall, but I'm betting there will be the same high quality-awe inspiring work for what does make it....and less people overall....but then the banquet tables won't be "elbow-to-elbow" and the rush to find a table won't be as bad! I'm betting it'll still be lots of fun for those of us who can make it!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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On 5/21/2020 at 10:18 PM, ddoyle said:

PS: I'd still REALLY like to know the dates for the coming Omaha  convention.

 

Dave, 20-23 July 2022 per the updated bid presentation I happen to have

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I agree with Gil. I think our demographic being what it is (old guyz) that this may be the smallest nationals in a few decades... too many people just won't feel safe going.

I'll go, and will take whatever precautions we are instructed to take.

I hope the venue/hosts/USA will have plenty of masks & hand sanitizer to hand out, as there will be those who don't think about and will be required to have one to get in.

 

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Just a short precaution, if you are going to the 'Nats be careful about using hand sanitizer and handling  your models. Many of the alcohol / chemical  based hand sanitizers do not react well with the finish coats we use on our models. Some of this stuff tends to linger on your skin....

Edited by patd
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I think it unfortunate that our IPMS leadership doesn't grow a pair and make the right decision to cancel this year. First of all, Texas is a real hot spot right now (as is Arizona where I live). San Marcos is not a particularly safe area. Second, the demographics of IPMS is such that many of us who would normally attend and enter models are high to very high risk. Third, if it is held, the number of attendees and the number of models will likely make any awards a joke. First place out of 2 entries. Wow! Fourth, I'll bet the number of vendors who attend will be less than half in normal times. Finally, travel to and from is problematic at best.

I was planning to go and had a great room rate but have since decided to cancel. Judging by the responses on our local IPMS page, I am just one of many who are doing the same.

Come on, IPMS leadership. Have some gumption. Do the right thing. Forget this year. Focus on Vegas 2021. Why are you having such a hard time with this? I am also a wargamer. Historicon, the nationals of miniature wargaming has cancelled along with the ancillary convention Fall-In in October. The world boardgaming championships has cancelled. Seven Years War convention the same. And right on down the list. Only IPMS has stuck its collective head in the sand and is ignoring the obvious. Sure, it would be disappointing. BUT DO THE RIGHT THING!!

Kevin Wenker

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P.This comment is wholly unfair, argumentative and needlessly insulting. The “hard time with this” which you seem not to have considered is the financial disaster this will be for Len’s team and the National Organization. That this National is going to be -barring a miracle- a monetary disaster is evident. How much of a disaster depends on whether - if I understand the situation correctly- we are shut down by the government in the wake of a surge of Covid as the end of a July approaches or we cancel of our own volition. Again, if I have interpreted the consequences of each of the two outcomes correctly, if IPMS is shut down by outside forces, we lose a lot of money. But if we cancel preemptively, we lose a lot more money. It would be irresponsible of the leadership to undertake the latter decision so soon before the possibility that the former may take place and hopefully ameliorate the financial impact.

Whether I understand this virtually no-win situation correctly or not, I am sure of this: Len and his team and the National leadership are on an agony of disappointment and uncertainty. Your language is inappropriately rude, insensitive  and betrays an unacceptable disrespect for our fellow members who have volunteered hundreds of hours of their time to prepare for what they assumed would be the crowning achievement of their membership in IPMS. 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

P.S. If the Forum Moderator wants to take me to the woodshed for this, I go gladly. Some things just have to be said. Nick

Edited by Nick Filippone
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Len,   what does the San Marcos Embassy Suites see as the 'new normal'?   

There was a report on tonights NBC Evening News which they reported on sanitation and distancing procedures at hotels, centering their report on Hilton Hotels (parent company of Embassy Suites).

blob:https://www.nbcnews.com/2646adf9-0a9c-4d55-938c-ed1096842501

No bellman at arrival,  online check-in suggested, wearing masks required,   one-person elevators,  do not touch the stair railings signs, no buffets,  no room service, distancing marks on floor, enhanced cleaning of public spaces, but limited room cleaning and in-room amenities.

The Hilton Clean-stay program on their website says they will be rolling out their procedures soon.    What does Embassy Suites say they will be doing the end of next month?  

 

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Completely disagree with Kevin's assessment and think Nick hit it on the head. This is no win. Do you throw away three years of work plus costs or not. There is no good answer. As for hot spots or not, since it was reported by the media and the government, I have less than zero belief in any of it personally.

I will say that I am glad I am not on the Eboard this go around

 

Dave

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Greetings All

As these discussions go round and round ,information goes back and forth,I have a simple request. 
To All involved ...simply allow me to make my own decision. Go or stay at home , I simply request the ability to make my own decision and live with the consequences.

Thank You

Bill Dedig

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I am surprised that no one has posted this here or anywhere else on the the rules for the national convention.  This is on the main home page of IPMS.  It tells me that IPMS is aware for potential legal liability for injury resulting from catching Covid 19 by attending any contest or show and that the risk is higher than normal.  Each of us needs to decide if the risk is worth it, but we stand warned.  No complaining if you go and get sick.  You have been warned. 

Going forward, the following disclaimer needs to be added to all show flyers as well as your posting on the IPMS/USA event page:

“In light of the current pandemic situation, please be aware that neither IPMS/USA nor its Chapters are liable for any potential transmission of illnesses.  Those planning to attend this event should (a) follow existing safe social distancing recommendations and (b) abide by any local or state regulations regarding gatherings.” 

Edited by PeteJ
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An observation I would like to mention that I recently experienced.

 

I attended the IPMS Metro OKC SoonerCon 2020 show this weekend.  For this regional area, it was the first show held since all the shelter in place orders were set in motion back in March.

 

While traveling from Dallas to OKC that morning I wondered what it would be like.  Would people show? Will there be models? Are there going to be vendors?  To my surprise lots of people arrived.  Some made hotel reservations since their drive was from far distances (Houston, 8 hrs plus!).  There were many models on the contest tables and all the vendor room tables were sold out.  Upon arriving at the venue, all the necessary precautions were taken by the host club with mask, gloves and hand sanitizer being available if a visitor needed them.

 

I've attended past shows at OKC and this by far was one of the larger ones.  As model builders, we are an introverted group and keeping social distance was a natural thing to do. I listened and talked to many folks and a common theme was to support the local chapter as well as getting out and enjoying our hobby amongst old friends and peers with the same interests.  Some were just ready to be at a show since they haven’t been to one in so long.

 

A very successful show and supported by folks near and far and from all different age groups.

 

I read a news article about a month ago that caught my eye (can’t recall the publication).  It was an analogy about how we live with COVID and driving a car.  In life we have things or activities that have some amount of risk.  Some are riskier than others but it helps when we take necessary precautions to make it safer.  This is true as we go through daily life.

 

Driving a car has its own set of risks.  We know its usefulness for us but we make a choice to get in and allow it to take us from point A to B.  To make it safer for us the automaker has installed some safety measures like airbags, antilock brakes, defrosters, brake lights, seatbelts, etc.  When we get in, we make personal choices to make our travel more safe like adjusting the seat, using the seatbelt, adjusting the mirrors, using the turn signal, and making sure our passengers are wearing a seatbelt.  These precautions will not 100% guarantee our safety but it will increase our survivability in case an accident does happen along the way.

 

Living with COVID we have to make daily choices.  And when we do it is up to us to decide to take the precautions to make us safer.  Precautions by wearing a mask, gloves, using hand sanitizer and social distancing.  Moreover, what about destination and timing?  Grocery shop at 7 AM on a weekday versus Saturday afternoon?  Go to a crowed bar on Friday night?  Nothing is guaranteed 100% but our choices and precautions will allow us to increase our safety so we can live more fully when we do venture out.

 

There will be folks who cannot attend the 2020 Nationals for fear of getting sick.  That is OK. We are living in a strange time and this fear is valid.  Please stay home and hope you can attend the 2021 Nats.

 

For those who can attend please take the necessary precautions to allow you and those around you to have a very pleasant show.

 

Based on what I experienced at OKC, I believe people will support and attend the Nat’s because they love the hobby and want to reconnect with friends they have made over the years.  People will attend because it is going forward and because it is “THE IPMS NATIONALS”.  It will probably be the “Mask Wearing Nats” but it is still the Nats.

 

I just wanted to share an observation and the experience I had over the weekend in anticipation of a good show in San Marcos when we all do are part during this strange time.

 

Cheers! – Pat V.

 

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I have made a personal decision not to go to the NATS this year.  It will be the first one I've missed in some time.  My decision was based on COVID-19 and social responsibility for not being part of the problem.  I suggested previously that all NATS be pushed back one year which was disregarded.  I fear that this is going to be a financial disaster for the Texas team and they're going to need some help.  I'm not sure what that is going to look like yet, but I'm considering sending in my registration fee, even though I'm not attending.

We took a poll with our club which was meeting on Zoom and nobody was going this year.  There were different reasons provided such as vendors pulling out, poor attendance, etc., all of which is driven by this virus.  

Dave

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On 6/16/2020 at 11:03 AM, DWaples said:

I have made a personal decision not to go to the NATS this year.  It will be the first one I've missed in some time.  My decision was based on COVID-19 and social responsibility for not being part of the problem.  I suggested previously that all NATS be pushed back one year which was disregarded.  I fear that this is going to be a financial disaster for the Texas team and they're going to need some help.  I'm not sure what that is going to look like yet, but I'm considering sending in my registration fee, even though I'm not attending.

We took a poll with our club which was meeting on Zoom and nobody was going this year.  There were different reasons provided such as vendors pulling out, poor attendance, etc., all of which is driven by this virus.  

Dave

You weren't disregarded--several people explained that it is not that easy to just "push everything back by one year"--Vegas and Omaha (the next two hosts in 2021 and 2022, respectively) have already negotiated their contracts (contrary to popular belief, even though IPMS/USA takes care of the finances, each host negotiates their own deals with venues and hotels), and to push everything back would not only require San Marcos to renegotiate, it would require Vegas and Omaha to do the same.  Unless and until the Texas government decides to enact some sort of lockdown or shutdown, IPMS is at the mercy of Embassy Suites if they unilaterally decide to cancel, even with a Force Majeure clause in the contract.  Right now, Vegas and Omaha have zero reason to let people out of their contracts, so instead of taking one hit, IPMS will take three.  One will be bad enough.

Now, if the Texas Governor orders a shutdown down this year and the show gets cancelled, I am all for slotting the Texas guys into the schedule to host in 2023, after Vegas and Omaha.  They've worked their boo-hinds off, and they deserve to host a convention if theirs gets canned.

If I had planned to attend this year, I would have cancelled when we started seeing how unpredictable and lethal COVID-19 was.  To me, a model show is not worth jeopardizing my health over.  But right now, that decision has to be made at the personal level--some people are still raring to go, which is great.  Others have already cancelled, which is also okay.  As Bill said above, everyone has to decide for themselves if it is worth going or not. 

As the kids say these days, you be you.

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