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Hello

I would hope this stimulates some spirited discussion.

Concept: As each Category is Judged, Notices are placed as to what has "Placed" in each category :

  • No Longer place "Category winners"(Announced at Awards presentation)
  • Judges simply place a "IPMS Nationals winner" card with model (category and entrant number written on it).
  • Awards Show will be Category and Special Winners (1st,2nd,3rd will be placed with models during Awards ceremony, as done now)
  • 1st,2nd,3rd will be published in Journal and Social Media and discussed during Saturday evening model-rush.

- Debate Points

  1. Non-Winner will take Models and Leave...(My Opinion...I am there for the Convention ,not only as a competitor, Thank God)
  2. Banquet will suffer....( Banquet is about Camaraderie, IPMS recognitions and Thank You's, not awards.)
  3. Judges may be asked to justify their decisions...They should be able to do so even now.

+Debate Points

  1. Winning models can be viewed in a Timely manner during Saturday
  2. Brief Photo Show and Announcement no longer needed during Awards Ceremony 
  3. Winning Model Builders can be congratulated and discuss their methodology during the day. 

Details can be added or subtracted as Needed

Comments PLEASE

Bill

 

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When you say "Category winners", I take it you actually mean GENRE winners, such as Best Aircraft, Best Armor, etc.....as a category winner is actually whoever gets a 1rst place, but that the judges put down a generic "nationals winner' card beside the 3 models that placed in each category so people can see what won, but not necessarily know their order of placement...right?

 

Personally, I have no problems with your basic proposal....It solves the problem of having to take a lot of extra pics and then also get them ordered correctly for the presentation at the banquet, as well as shortening the awards program itself.

However, I can HEAR the screaming from some because you're robbing them of their recognition and 15 minutes of fame! After all, this is the IPMSUSA NATIONALS, and as winners in the BIG time, they deserve BIG TIME recognition!

Keep in mind (in case you didn't know) that we evolved to where we are today. There was a time when there were NO pics of any winners, just the reading of the winner's names. But then a club took slides of the 1rst place winners, got them developed, and showed pics of them. The next evolution was taking slides of ALL the winners.  And thus we got to where we are now....only digital photography has at least made the picture taking SO much easier!

Your attitude on attending the show and the banquet are spot on...as any of us who have regularly attended the Nats knows. But, "we" are only probably a 3rd at most of those attending the Nats. Almost 2/3rds are people who only make it when they can drive to it, and thus don't as readily see the benefits of staying as long as you can, or paying a bit extra for a meal so you can mingle with your friends and make new ones. In my experience, you cannot convince that other 2/3rds to join us.

I'll put a counter-proposal in another reply below....

Gil :smiley16:

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If you've been on these forums long enough, this topic comes up regularly.....how do we make for a faster awards program, allow people to get into the model room earlier on Saturday night, and help ease the feeling of being rushed to pack at the end of the show; and ALSO still have a good banquet (often required by the host venue) and give the recognition to the winners that they want and deserve?

The problem, in my view, is that we're trying to do EVERYTHING in one night, and I don't think it's necessary. Here's what I would propose.....

Move the banquet to EARLY Friday evening, say from 5-7pm.  This would be a social event, BUT it would ALSO be the time for the host club to make their thankyou speeches, recognize their club members who worked so hard, and also for IPMSUSA to make the Chapter of the Year, Newsletter of the Year, and Webmaster of the Year awards. ALL of that backslapping and the ancillary awards takes up at least a HOUR of time at our current Saturday banquet/awards program; and could MUCH easier be done on Friday evening, even while people were still chewing their food.

The ONLY curve ball to this idea is that the judges have to start work at 7pm. However, by starting at 5pm, 2 hours is more than ample time for the judges to get fed and then exit to their meeting and their work. And IF things ran a little late, none of them are going to cry over missing those ancillary award announcements! I also believe that IF this idea worked as well as I think it might (once the routine was well established), we could even go back to having a speaker at the banquet (remember when we did that?). THAT would be yet another reason to attend it, in addition to the camaraderie.

NOW, Saturday evening is freed up for a pure awards ceremony, with ONE announcement: who won the bid for a coming convention (which should only take 10-15mins). Start it at 5-6pm and it could be over by 8pm. Remember, the hosts have already said their thanks and the "other" awards have been given out; so simply have a seat, announce who won the convention bid(s), and start the slide show! That puts everyone back into the model room at least 2-3 hours earlier than now, and gives almost everyone that much more time to socialize instead of having to pack and run.

If I ever get put in charge of a NATS (and I can see y'all cringing at the thought!), THAT is what I'll try to do!

 

GIL :smiley16:

Edited by ghodges
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Thank you for your comments.

My thoughts are mostly to post the notifications with the models on Friday evening  to allow attendees to actually see what “placed” at the  IPMS Nationals. 

the Banquet and Slide show are just the argumentative side of the concept.

Cheers

Bill

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Bill:

I think Chattanooga set one standard I liked with NO banquet. I am aware of the contractual obligations many have but it was great.

I like the idea of scrolling the (if we have to do a banquet) of scrolling the winners show on the projection system while eating with the 1-2-3 places and awarding the specials, Best Of's physically afterward

I would love more time after the awards to mill about in the room but I am not sure that is even pratical

And Gil makes good points

Dave

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Hello

Guys

My focus in this discussion is the Placement of "Award Winner " cards with the winners on Friday evening. Allows Saturday for all attendees to see, in a Timely manner, what models were winners.

I appreciate the Banquet and photo discussions, but my main point is for attendees to view awarded models all day Saturday, not just a brief photo at presentation or when models are being "packed Up" Saturday evening.

Thanks for Interest

Bill

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I think the placement of the award winner cards is a workable idea, but I'm not sure it would e received with as much enthusiasm as you'd hope, and may not really be needed.

My first observation is that ANY model that inspires you, and that you'd want to talk to the builder about, may or may not be an award winner. Everyone has a different idea of what's inspiring to them, and JUST because a model places does not necessarily give it any more inspiration on Saturday than it had on Friday before the judging. And, if you truly want to know who built a model so you can talk to the builder, all you need to do is peek at the back side of the entry form, ANY day of the convention. So, identifying the winners would give them a bit more time to bask in their glory (not at all bad), but is not really needed to find and talk to a builder of a model that interests you.

Second, it does open up the possibility of more time for people to express sour grapes. As a l-o-n-g time judge, I can tell you that very often the decision of the judges is NOT readily apparent to the casual viewer, ESPECIALLY if that viewer has no judging experience. As you mentioned, the judges usually can explain why they made their decision, but believe me (speaking from experience), just because you explain it does NOT mean that the other guy (loser) is going to ACCEPT your explanation. I've seen way to many guys who are genuinely upset because you have slighted their labor of love by not seeing their build through their eyes and awarding it accordingly. Or, they're upset that the judges didn't see the perceived flaws THEY see in the winners and thus cannot understand how those finished ahead of them. Again, in a perfect world, the judges would be cut some slack. But in my experience in judging for the last 25yrs, too many people put too much desire into being recognized by getting an award, and thus act like you've personally rejected them as individuals, as opposed to simply to being told there were 3 better efforts on the table that day.

On the positive side for those cards, it's VERY common for me to see a winning model posted on the screen at the banquet and realize I had somehow "missed" noticing that model on the tables. The winners cards would at least allow you to stroll up and down and make a mental note of those and look closer than you had before if you'd indeed been skipping over it before.

It'd be interesting to know what a majority of the Nats goers think, and might make for an excellent polling question in Texas to get some data from people who actually attend the Nats.

 

Gil :smiley16:

Edited by ghodges
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If you put out notices of who the 1,2,3 winners are on Sat. morning, almost every other model in the room will be gone by noon, people will not stay Sat. night in the hotel reducing the number of used, but required, room nights, and the only people at any awards presentation that night will be those that won the 1,2,3 awards, and remember many of those will be people that have won multiple awards, so the number present will be much lower than the actual number of awards and it will be even harder to meet any food/beverage requirement of the venue. And all those people won't be in the venders area spending money on Saturday and then what vender is going to travel all that distance and pay those rates to set up for such a short period of sales? I base that on 40 years of national convention experience and what I've seen at local contests that use a similar approach, i.e. my own club . We place the 1,2,3 winners on the table then open the room up and wait a bit before we read the other awards. When people see they have not won, they pack up and leave. By the time we finish those awards, the room is mostly empty. For us, it doesn't matter as it's only intended to be a one day, drive in show anyway but imagine the impact on a what is suppose to be a national event.

You either accept the convention as a gathering of people who love models and modeling and want to meet and be with other modelers, or it's just a big model show with a venders area. If the former, then you can go Gil's way and emphasize comraderie and have a banquet with a speaker on Friday and an awards ceremony a la Chattanooga on Saturday. If all you want is a big model contest, put out the awards on Sat. morning and watch everyone leave, but don't expect it a second time 'cause where are you going to find a venue that you can do that in that you can afford and where is the club that wants to put all that effort in for very little return. 

It's the IPMS/USA National Convention. It's a convention. It's a gathering, not just a model contest. If that doesn't appeal to as many people now as it use to in the past, maybe it needs to be smaller, not larger. In some ways, maybe those few guys who got together for dinner long ago in Chicago had the right idea. Just people gathering together to enjoy each other and their shared hobby. Here's a weird idea. Similar to the British show, Scale Model World, mix our venders up with the models. Maybe have a row of venders, then the aircraft categories, then another row of venders and another group of categories and so on. Maybe place aircraft heavy venders near the aircraft and automotive venders by the automotive categories. Maybe we need to rethink the whole thing, but then maybe we don't mess with something that seems to be working just fine. This is off topic, so forgive the tangent, but I spent 22 years in IPMS national leadership positions pondering all this stuff and it still sticks with me. 

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Ron’s remarks are predictably cogent and pertinent. There is no need to undertake risky experiments with a format that anyone can see has evolved over 50 years into the very popular and successful convention and contest we now have. With our current system, the numbers of entrants and entries is consistent enough for a potential host chapter to submit a bid, and be confident that, if awarded, it will likely result in a financially successful effort. Any changes as drastic as those suggested in the opening post will create too many unknowns. The stampede to book a room at the convention hotels when the flag is dropped should, alone, be enough testimony to the popularity of our current convention system! 

It ain’t broke. Don’t try to fix it! 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge 

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I heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" from my Dad starting about age 12. He was a mechanic and that was his frame of mind: cars either worked or were broke, and if they were broke you put them back the way the manufacturer built them. He sent me off to engineering school, where we learned that the people who designed things were constantly innovating and making tradeoffs trying to make things work better, because their competitors were doing the same thing.

It's not obvious to me that everyone who didn't win would leave on Saturday morning.  Many attendees would have already made travel plans, bought banquet tickets, raffle tickets, tour tickets, have non-refundable hotel reservations, be waiting for the vendor clearance-sale, or want to take one more circuit through the contest room. A modeler with vendor-money left in their wallet isn't about to leave. As long as there is stuff to do on Saturday afternoon there is no real reason to pack up early. There would be a tendency for non-winners to start packing up around 3-4:00 PM Saturday afternoon to beat the rush, but you could minimize that by having some "big event" about that time: a big name seminar or a pre-awards happy hour that was already included in the price of registration, so that people would want to stay for what they had already paid for. 

I'll be the first to admit trying this would be an experiment; we wouldn't know if it would work or not. That is the nature of innovation: you study it as well as you can and make contingency plans, but in the end you don't know if it works until you flip the switch and see what happens.

 

Edited by Schmitz
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I agree.  Back in 2003 when I chaired the Nats in OKC, everyone I talked to said a slide show at the awards ceremony just couldn't work with programs available at the time.  Guess what.  We figured it out and the slide show came off without a hitch, WITH the program everyone had failed with before OKC Metro.

Never be afraid to try something new and different. 

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Then, two years later, when Atlanta tried an all-computer results recording and reporting system, it crashed with no hard-copy back-up to fall back on. The result was there that was no way to announce any awards but Best in Class and the other major awards and no pictures. So innovation always carries risk and there should always be a plan “B.” It is also not reasonable to ask someone else (in this case, a host chapter) to be a lab rat for what is referred to in science as gadget research!

I mean no disrespect to the members in Atlanta who hosted that show. It was otherwise a great show: great vendors, great venue and what I believe is still the largest number of entries. I had a great time. Thank you, Atlanta! 

 

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No one asked us to try anything regarding the slide show in '03.  Everything we did was of our own accord and we kept the 2nd VP informed.  I agree that host chapters should not be "lab rats".  We chose to be "lab rats", because we knew where the problems occurred previously.  I was so concerned about the show failing that we held a Saturday 2000 slide (2000 slides) show at a local church using the exact set up we would be using at the Nats.  It went flawlessly and we got to see some cool model slides.

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If we didn't try new things, judging would still be 6 AM Saturday morning with the venue closed all morning instead of someone saying "Hey why don't we judge Friday nights?". One of the best ideas ever.

If you are not changing, you are dying a slow death. Sure, some things don't work but many do.

Some great ideas.

Dave

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There are some excellent proposals in this thread; I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth. It would be ideal to identify the winners earlier in the show, much as happens now in Telford. I do think there would be some propensity for those who didn't win to pack up their models. They might not leave, but there would probably be gaps on the tables. If that doesn't become a trend, it probably wouldn't matter.

I personally enjoy the awards presentation. As an aircraft modeler I concentrate on those categories, but I also would like to know what won in other areas. During the usual hustle at the show, you may not get to every table.  And probably 20% of the winners shown during the awards presentation prompt the expression "I didn't even see that"!  However, the banquet has become too lengthy. We have added categories, specials and recognitions over the years and this now taxes the patience of many in attendance. Even with our proud graduates of the Evelyn Wood Speed Speaking Academy, Aris and Bill, there is a LOT of ground to cover, and they do it exceptionally well. The two-tiered system mentioned by Gil and Don is definitely something to consider. I like the idea of a speaker and recognitions being done on Friday and the final judging results on Saturday. The logistics of assembling so many people twice during the convention would have to be worked out.

Some things, from my perspective, may not work. The Telford arrangement, where models are intermingled with vendors, is attractive. But these are SIG and club display tables. Their members are in attendance continually to talk about the models and the special interests they represent. The competition room is just about as far from the common area as possible. Since they judge during the day anything else would be a nightmare. Yes, the Nationals ain't broke. The numbers of attendees and their enthusiasm seem to increase every year. So the system doesn't necessarily need to be fixed, but as others have noted, it has evolved to get it where it is today. To think that we have achieved perfection and don't need to consider improvements or alternatives, is naïve at best.   

 

Barry Numerick

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I suggest we do what we did with National Judging- take a vote. Especially in this case, it should be a polling of Convention-goers. My guess will be that we will have the same result as the previous survey: a combination of indifference and no clear mandate for change! Nick

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Additionally, I think it would be mature and gracious of us to sit patiently and politely  through the “ recognition” portion of the awards banquet while the show staff takes their much- deserved victory lap. These people work very hard for two or three years to entertain us and it is not unreasonable for them to expect us to permit and even encourage them to take a few bows. It is not unlike a high school or college graduation. You sit there, maintaining a respectful silence, anticipating the moment when your family member walks across the stage to be handed his or her diploma and you get to witness it. Such may be said for the few seconds when, perhaps, a relatively new member, maybe entered in his or her first National Contest, sees their model on the screen at the Awards Ceremony and their name announced ( even if it is just a third place). For some of the older, more jaded Convention goers, this may be old hat, but definitely not for newer members- you know- those people we are trying to recruit and retain! 

It boggles my mind that, for a year, we all prepare for and anxiously anticipate this event we call the IPMS National Convention and Contest and, yet, so many people, it seems, once there, can’t get out of there fast enough. 

The National is not a drive-by, slam, bam thank you m’am, one day, six hour quickie! Let us confer on it the dignity it deserves. 

One of the drawbacks to being an adult is that sometimes you have to act like one. 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

 

 

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Great discussion and I like the idea of placing "Award Winner" type business cards next to models that have placed. It doesn't explicitly state what they've won, but indicates to the general public this is an award winning model. Is this a new concept? No, Scale Model Challenge (Europe's premier show) puts out cards every year, example below. Guess what? Everyone still goes to the awards show regardless. 

The notion that everyone would leave the show early on Saturday is completely unfounded. Why would I leave the Nationals early? I've bought the banquet ticket when I pre/registered, booked a hotel room to check out Sunday, and have a travel arrangements for Sunday. Would I change my plans because I didn't win? Would other people adjust their schedule to leave Saturday by noon if they didn't win? I highly doubt that. As mentioned, it's the Nationals, it's a convention that's more than just a contest. Using a local show to state people would leave early is not a comparative example. It's not even apples to oranges but apples to chicken wings. Attendees at local shows are predominately local (within a few hours driving), the sooner the show is over the earlier they get home. The Nationals is a completely different scenario. The majority of attendees aren't local (my hypothesis based on attending the last 10).

The thought of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' is the worst way to view any business, event, or situation. It's been proven countless times that adage is the reason things die off. I don't think anyone is saying the system is broken, we're just saying there's room for potential improvement that benefits attendees. Like everything else in life, the show evolves. A small step was indicating the Best of's. This same discussion of 'it'll be the death of the show' was stated. Guess what? People love it. 

A simple suggestion by a long standing member of the society shouldn't be destroyed on arrival. Let's have an open ongoing discussion.    

20191020_094943.jpg

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Hello 

It has been 14 days since I started and I Figured it was time for a few notes.

Besides the decals are now drying on my F-15.

  1. Why did I start this conversation ? Three main Reasons
    1. I absolutely despise the need to run on Saturday evening after the awards to see the winning entries and congratulate those builders.
    2. I do not believe the 1-2 second photo and the Miniature Picture in the Journal is enough to take a good look at the Judged winners.
    3. After attending the Telford World Model Expo, I found the ability to see who and what was awarded was fantastic.
  2. Clubs needing to be "Guiana Pigs / Lab Rats" is not really a needed concept. There are three major shows that post their award winners before the end of show...Scale Model World (Telford), Eday(Czech Republic) and Scale Model Challenge (as mentioned by Mr Bonnani above).
  3. Attendees leaving early has been mentioned in posts above and as I stated in my opening post ,there are way to many reasons for my time spent at the convention, contest results are not one of them. As mentioned above, all the factors involved in attending a IPMS convention preclude departing early (Travel Plans,Vendors,Comraderie, ETC ETC).
  4. Couple of people have mentioned Surveys, but in the next breath note that they are mostly futile.(PS..Survey of Forum respondents is 2 against and 7 Interested)  As a previous Product Manager , I suggest put the concept to a test and review the results. If Good- it remains, If bad- remove and continue. Again as mentioned above ,things have been tried, failed, modified and implemented, without the failure of the IPMS convention.
  5. I do not believe The IPMS Nations are "Not Broke" rather I would like see them as a "Work in Progress" and looking at the worldwide modeling community learning from each and continue to grow the US Nationals .

As we would say at Product Management  "sooner or later you have to shoot the engineers and build the product"...I would like to move this idea forward to IPMS Leadership. Any Ideas How ?

Have enjoyed the conversation. 

Best Regards

Bill

Edited by wdedig
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In fairness, one should try to see the distinction between what one decides is broken, and what is, in fact, simply different or not to one’s liking. Nick

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"I would like to move this idea forward to IPMS Leadership. Any Ideas How ?"

I got the GSB-123 survey going by first discussing it here.  Ron Bell was looking in and contacted me.  You have done that, so I would suggest next talking to the 2021 convention chairman and see how they feel about it.  I say 2021 because you may not have time to get everything worked out with the 2020 Chairman and E-board to do it this year.  You will NEED the support of the 2021 convention chairman if you have any hope of this going any further.  If you can get support from the 2021 chairman, contact the 2nd VP as he is the liaison to the E-board regarding national convention matters.  Without his support, it will be a real uphill battle.

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Thank You Rusty.

That will be my Course of Action. I never had any intention on 2020.

Appreciate the constructive exchange ,sad so few indulged.

Regards

Bill

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Two points (1) I  first suggested the idea of creating the 123/GSB survey on this Forum,  shortly after the 2018 Nationals, although my original idea was to poll registrants at the 2019 Nationals as part of the registration process.(2) Maybe so few indulged because, like the 123v. GSB exchange, so few find it constructive or necessary. Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/15/2020 at 7:33 AM, Nick Filippone said:

although my original idea was to poll registrants at the 2019 Nationals as part of the registration process. Maybe so few indulged because, like the 123v. GSB exchange, so few find it constructive or necessary. 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you saying so few indulged to vote, in reference to the low submitted responses at the 2019 Nationals?

After the first day of the 2019 Nationals the poll was removed from the registration process. I was told that they (IPMS) didn't want members voting twice. Potentially once at the show and once through the journal. Many people were wondering where it went. 

Additionally, I was under the impression only the Journal votes were counted in the poll.

 

 

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