Jump to content
Dakimbrell

Was the Red Baron a serial Killer?

Recommended Posts

The Baron, stalked his prey and attacked from behind and kept trophies of his kills. Just like a serial killer. Is it appropriate to do a model of a serial killer's stuff?

I was looking at the contest rules and those that have won over the years and wonder what most serious members think is an inappropriate model or contest entry.

Personally, I'm an artist at heart and find very few things offensive enough to be band or remove it from a contest.

However, I am aware others may not feel that way. So, what offends you and why? Would a model of one of the 9/11 planes be ok? If so, how is it different from the plane that sank the Arizona? Is a model of Timothy McVeigh's Car ok form the National? If not, why would a model of Hitler's big six wheeled car be ok?

We do swastikas and naked girls all over airplanes, but showing a dead body seems to upset many. Seems strange to me.

Thoughts?

Dak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Red Baron wasn't hunting innocent civilian pilots who were on a Sunday flight enjoying the French countryside. He was an aerial combatant stalking other aerial combatants during a World War. If he enjoyed what he did, it was probably so he could cope with the idea of hunting his fellow man, knowing he could easily become the hunted in a moment's notice.

McVeigh's car or his Ryder rental truck would be rather morbid as would OJ's getaway white Ford Bronco (I know it wasn't his vehicle). You would probably have to put some sort of description of the vehicle's historical significance since many wouldn't know the getaway vehicles and just see them as model cars. Same with the airliners that were hijacked during the 9/11 attacks. They would require descriptive plaques to identify their historical significance.

Everyone recognizes the Red Baron's triplane. Not everyone would recognize a Japanese plane that attacked the Arizona.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many enemy aircraft are you allowed to shoot down before you become a serial killer? The Red Baron was just better at killing people than most assigned to carry out the same task. 

The painful reality is, artists or not, most of us are fascinated with these instruments of destruction and death. They are emblematic of humanity at it’s most base. I suppose we deal with it by just not thinking about it too much, but modelers who build cars and dinosaurs and Gundams can do so with a much clearer conscience. 

Nick Filippone

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This IS a "gray" area, but I've always felt that those of us who build military subjects generally are paying homage to the courage shown by the combatants, be they ours or the enemy. Any TRUE, objective historians realize that most combatants from any time are merely caught up in it, many with little to no choice. Yes, there are those who fought for terrible causes and were fanatical believers in those causes, and some of those people and subjects should give us pause when it comes to building something representative of THEM personally. Luckily, those horrible people tend to actually be few and far between, and not representative of most of the world's combatants. Thus, we can build things that represent their bravery and their sacrifices, while we acknowledge that some of those items were used for less than honorable causes.

As for some of the far less noble and more controversial subjects, what is the motive for building them? IF it is to preserve an example from history that should NOT be forgotten, and that should be used as a lesson for us to learn from; then perhaps it has merit. But then again, is a model show the type of place for that? You can build it for a museum, or perhaps even a school classroom, but I'd question displaying it among groups of models that are the products of a "relaxing hobby". Time and place lend context to what you build and display, and should be considered. After all, you may like to build and paint risque figures, and while your skills may be relatable to all the other genres, they're not truly a part of what should be on general display at any "normal "plastic" model show.

In today's age, I think too many people overthink this. Too many people look for things that they may disagree with or that may "offend them"; and what's worse, believe they should force their own world views on everyone else, even at the expense of ignoring true history that we need to learn from. The bottom line is did you INTEND to build something in order to offend people or ++++ them off? If so, then you picked the wrong modeling subject! If not, then chalk it up to someone ele's inability to cope with the real world and their overthinking what's simply a hobby.

 

GIL :smiley16:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every citizen must take moral responsibility for what he does in the name of his or her country! “I was only obeying orders” didn’t get Eichmann an acquittal. 

Governments-I.e. the rich- have been seducing it’s citizens to fight their wars for them by appealing to their patriotism since Homo sapiens started walking upright. War will never be over until the individual applies the courage he or she has shown in uniform and use it to defy his or her own leaders when they drum up some reason  to kill. 

“War is over if you want it” ( John Lennon) A fantasy? It Is unless we begin to problem solve as nations and individuals better than we do now. 

Wrestling with our consciences over building the implements of old wars pales into insignificance when compared to the moral quandary of how to avoid new ones. 

“Who wants to die? “ (Marvin Gaye) 

Nick 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Compared to war, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance".  George S. Patton.  Personally, I feel that the world would be far better without war, but to ignore the significance and level of commitment is to fail to understand history!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the Red Baron went beyond the norms of what is expected in war and what is expected of a fighter pilot, unlike, say, a Nazi soldier rounding up children to be sent to a death camp.

For me, I think discussions like these are fraught with pitfalls, and I think it is important to distinguish between my own personal rules for myself, what I think contests rules should be, and what in an ideal world I think people should adopt. This is also a difficult discussion as we are in a difficult time given real world politics as over the past few years, there has been a lot of high profile neo-nazi activity and terror attacks. It's hard to discuss these sort of issues when politeness demands you don't discuss politics at the dinner table or in the scale model group.

Personally, I don't do Nazi stuff, unless it is portraying a rejection of the regime such as a captured aircraft in Allied or Republican service, or a Nazi flag being run over by an Allied tank. I don't like Nazis and don't want to in any way glorify them. Certain other historical figures are also a no-no, like, say, King Leopold. There is also some anime stuff that I stay away from because some of it can get a little creepy; schoolgirls and the like. Also, I'm not really into really exploitative nude figures, though I do have one topless weird squid mermaid figure in the stash. I also don't like combat scenes that are to "real" in terms of blood, gore, etc, or are really intense combat scenes with people getting shot, preferring the sort of "slice of life" stuff like some soldiers not under fire, pausing to check their maps and maybe grab a quick bite. The exception is in fantasy stuff where it is so over the top that it doesn't have the same effect as real-life gore -- an orc getting cut in half by the chainsaw-bayonet of a dude in powered armour is just so ridiculous that it doesn't have the same impact as a bunch of young guys getting mowed down by a machine gun. Those are my rules about what I want to work on and what I want to stare at in my display case.

As for contests, I think we have to have rules to keep things family-friendly. These are public events where we want people to bring kids to to get them interested, not to mention that you need to respect the venue if they are uncomfortable with certain subjects. No nudes and some basic rules for keeping things in good taste, and of course if you are in a country like Germany where there are legal restrictions, you have to follow all relevant laws. Seems like a no-brainer to me, though there might be some grey areas here and there, but I think it is good to keep things a little vague and trust the judgement of the show organizers and head judge, just because there will always be instances where people think of new ways to push the envelope that the organizers didn't anticipate.

Finally, in general, I think this is a hobby where a little more introspection on controversial subjects might be nice. There is the (silly, IMHO) debate over whether what we do is art, but if we want to claim to be artists, then we need to ask ourselves questions like why are we making a piece of art, what emotions do we want to convey, what story do we want to tell, etc, and those questions have to go a little deeper than "this is like a Bf.109 but smaller." I'm not saying that you shouldn't build German armour, but I feel like sometimes, attitudes towards Nazi stuff borders on an obsession that can be a little creepy. Occasionally, discussions go into some light Nazi apologia -- proclaiming the superiority of Nazi soldiers and equipment, whitewashing the crimes of the Wehrmacht, blaming everything on Versailles, pushing a false equivalence between the Nazis and Allied soldiers, etc. And there have been a couple times where I've seen people online start out saying "just because I build German armour doesn't mean I'm a Nazi" and then trail off into a bunch of racist or homophobic stuff, apparently not realizing that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

To be honest, as much as people complain about not having historically accurate decals, I think the Germans (outside of a resurgence in far-right ideas in some areas in recent years that needs to be kept in check) have the right idea -- take "Never Again" seriously by restricting the display and glorification of Nazi symbols, while at the same time making Holocaust education mandatory in schools. It's the same reason why I don't do Nazi stuff -- I don't avoid Nazi subjects because I want to forget the Holocaust; I don't build Nazi stuff precisely because I remember.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought long before writing what I am about to write, but finally decided that I would do so even if I take flak for it, or risk crossing a line. I do not understand why this question was started here on the IPMS/USA  website, or what it has to do with GENERAL MODELLING, All About Building Models. How does asking this question relate to building models? We are not supposed to bring politics into discussions on this site, but that is where this thread appears to be headed where people state their personal biases on what they do, or do not build and then make comparisons to current politics as justification. I do not believe that anyone has deliberately tried to be insulting, but I have read comments that I believe are biased and if I were thinned skinned could cause insult, and for that, and the above reason,  I do not think that these types of discussions belong here on a modelling site such as this one.  I feel that this discussion should be shut down before it goes any further, if for no other reason that it has nothing to do with modelling.

Thanks for reading,

John

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/4/2019 at 12:45 PM, John Walker said:

I do not understand why this question was started here on the IPMS/USA  website, or what it has to do with GENERAL MODELLING, All About Building Models. How does asking this question relate to building models? We are not supposed to bring politics into discussions on this site, but that is where this thread appears to be headed where people state their personal biases on what they do, or do not build and then make comparisons to current politics as justification. I do not believe that anyone has deliberately tried to be insulting, but I have read comments that I believe are biased and if I were thinned skinned could cause insult, and for that, and the above reason,  I do not think that these types of discussions belong here on a modelling site such as this one.  I feel that this discussion should be shut down before it goes any further, if for no other reason that it has nothing to do with modelling.

What is has to do with general modeling is how it effects what we show on the website and at the contests. If we do not discuss these things, then people begin to feel disenfranchised when they are not allowed to enter a favorite model at a show. Also, the people righting the rules need feed back from the membership. Many years ago, the contest committee made a bunch of very arbitrary rules without good feed back and that cost IPMS members and still effects the shows to this day. I have had heat discussions with several of those posting here and yet nothing said here seems political. Only by ignoring the subjects do we create problems down the line.

I don't see the Baron as a serial killer....at least in a criminal sense. I just felt that was a good place to start the discussion.

I like pretty girls, so nude or sexy figures don't bother me in the least. However, there are some subjects I do find inappropriate for public display at a convention....that sadomasochistic stuff. It generally doesn't "offend' me, but I can see why it might surprise and offend those not expecting at a model show. Of course, the only people I know who have purchased things like the Mascot figures have never built them. LOL

I don't see any difference between McVeigh's car and Galland's Me-262. The only difference to me is time: the OKC attack is too close for some people. Some things are just going to offend some people. One guy I know thinks models which display any human remains or children's toys (dolls, tricycles, or teddy bears) should not be allowed. My friend Foster did a superb Mercedes 170 delivery van vignette with the title Arbeit Macht Hungrig and someone was offended by it. One reason he used that title was his Jewish ancestry.

This year at Chattanooga, Mike Fleckenstein did a very nice vignette Will Someone Say Kadish For Them. I really liked it, yet I know there were some that felt it should not have been there.

Personally, I have been doing "Germany in defeat" for about a quarter century. (The only exception being the Battle of France.) Yet, I would never ban a swastika as an historical marking. I also see myself as an artist and the models...particularly the dioramas...tell a story and show something I want the public to see. I recently did a ADGZ armored car placed in the town of Lidice, Czechoslovakia because I want people to remember.

Dak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...