SURVEY SAYS!!! GSB!!!

[JClark]

David

           You'll never get a true sense because as you say, everyone would have to respond. And not everyone will. We had 8 to 9 hundred respond to the survey which is slightly more than the registered number for this year's nats "before cancelations". So extrapolate that out and the ones who responded are (Probably) the ones who attend the Nats. The core of people affected by this , who attend the Nats have spoken and are statically split.

           I still maintain if IPMS goes to the open system ( Via membership vote to amend the constitution to replace the word contest with exposition "Since it's not a contest anymore" or e-board mandate, yes! it could happen ) IPMS runs the very real risk of losing half the attendees to the nats. Then the question becomes will the new open system bring in enough new members to replace that half they lost and them some? Because that's the only way IPMS gains in this scenario.

 

Jim

[Highlander]

The core of any science is its ability to predict behavior or events.  Thus the various laws of physics.  Statistics is divided into two main branches.  Descriptive statistics define the characteristics of a population at the moment of measurement with a 100% sample.  Thus we can explicitly define the mean, median, and mode of the height of the students of Lincoln Middle School ... because we measure the height of each student.

Inferential statistics define the characteristics of a population at the moment of measurement with less than a 100% sample .. with a defined level of uncertainty as to how accurate the sample reflects the entire population.  Often, this sort of statistical measurement is called a poll.   And, as you hear in the media, polling data is usually accompanied by a "margin of error" number ... indicating, with some level of uncertainty, what the actual characteristic of the entire population is .... probably.  The size of the sample is very important ... the larger the sample, the less the degree of uncertainty.  But there is always uncertainty.

In our case, we can define with certainty the population that responded to the GSB poll ... what percentage prefers GSB and what percentage prefers 1-2-3.  But we can say nothing about the population that did not respond to the poll -- because there was no sampling of non-responders.  And we certainly can say little about the population of IPMS members, responders and non-responders.  Which is why polling is such an inexact methodology.  And why speculation about what the results might mean is rampant.

I personally would be interested in some large scale poll which asked whether a member cared, one way or another, what judging system was used.  Because, I speculate, the average IPMS member of the population that shows up for Nats will show up regardless of the judging system.     Based upon past experience as a club officer,  I speculate that most members don't really care.  They just like the Nats.

 

[JClark]

Quite possibly,  but I know I'm not alone. It's a big gamble to take. And when you say they "just like the Nats" but at what cost? . To totally revamp one main aspect of the convention changes the whole national ,would they "just like the Nats " after that? 

  Jim

[Highlander]

Speculation .. me and thee.

[JClark]

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Rusty White]

David, Jim,

FWIW, and I have mentioned this before; the entire membership was surveyed.  The survey went out in The Journal to the entire membership, was posted on the web site (to the entire membership), and was posted on the forum as well as at the Nationals that year for walk-up voters.  IMHO, no one could have been overlooked.  If some chose not to answer the survey then IMHO, they fall directly into the "I don't care" category you mention in your post.  Either way, the folks who "do care" are the folks we should be interested in because they are the ones (those who vote represent "the baby") who dictate the direction of the Society.  I would suggest to all those "I don't care" non-voters out there, that if they don't like the way the Society is being run by "the baby", join "the baby" and vote.

 

[noelsmith]

123 or GSB?   That is the question!

123. With a first in each category it is easier for the judges to choose an eventual National Champion.

GSB. How would a National Champion he chosen it there are numerous golds awarded in each category? I can see this being a logistical nightmare for the judging panel. Unless of course the new aim is for competitors to achieve gold by achieving a certain set number of points, and scrapping the National Champion award altogether.

[EFGrune]

The survey question was poorly written.  The NCC position was edited.   I believe it was Nardone who said at the Chattanooga (might have been Phoenix) NCC meeting that it was similar to asking your kids what they wanted for dinner; hot dogs or something else.   It could be pizza. It could be liver.   
The ‘something else’ needs to be completely defined.  What, how, when, and consideration of all downstream affects: Award counts,  Best-ofs, Journal, personnel, etc. included.  

[JClark]

That will be a tall task Ed, and it was in Chattanooga 😉

       And I agree. I listened to the Sprue cutters union podcast last night where they interviewed Robert Crombeecke who heads up Scale model challenge in Holland. They talked extensively about the open system. They complained about IPMS being nit picky. But then turned around and said that he personally didn't award a model because he "felt" it lacked "finesse". Now if we're nit picky I'll take that.Because I would much rather defend a position with a fact that I can point to then to tell an entrant their entry lacked finesse. What is finesse? how do I execute finesse and how do ALL judges apply this finesse requirement equally? 

    The Answer is you don't. What all this boils down to is judges picking what they like, well go to the state fair pie bake off if you want that. If it has enough fancy weathering and lipstick then to heck with everything else. IPMS gets branded with the lable of its all about construction. Well its not but we certainly start there in our evaluations because if you can't get the basics correct then who cares about the "art" of applying lipstick.  You have to prepare the canvas and if you have problems at the start then you're setting yourself up to fall short. 

   Now if we are all labeled as it's only construction in a 1,2,3 contest then why does fancy weathering and paint, (which comes after construction) override the basics? Is it assumed that basics aren't important or that we all have them covered ? Here is a question, Why do so many modelers when talking about modeling say "Now on to the fun stuff, painting and weathering " sounds to me like they don't enjoy the whole process and rush construction to get to the fun part. That's my one main complaint with the open system,  it's all about  the paint finish and how it can override basics. To me if you can't get the basics completed then you havn't finished your model. That and picking favorites.  Finding finesse and inspiration is NOT judging . Judging is applying a set of rules to each model finding the nits and ranking those nits because there is no such thing as a problem free model. It's quantifiable,  finesse is not. At one time I was open to hearing more about the open system, but the more I hear the more I do not like it. If the open system I have to inspire a judge with finesse then how do I do that? at least as it is now I and everyone else knows what is expected. And yet another question who died and made these judges experts in finesse? over in SMC they invite their judges, talk about an exclusive cabal , you want home cooking? do this and you'll have it. "Hey this is my buddy's model , he is good and deserves a gold, and after all he's met the gold standard at the regional so we really have to rubber stamp this anyways" Do we all really want that?

   My last question is this , when will the big  paint manufacturers start bottling Bronze,Silver and Gold bottles of Finesse? You all will need these in the open system . That or a friend that's a judge, or insider info as to what meets the finesse criteria.

 

Jim

[noelsmith]

I have judged at Telford for a number of years.

The first thing I look for is how the model is put together. i.e. 'The basics'  Proper assembly, line up, mould marks filled and rubbed down smooth, good joints etc. etc. This quickly sorts out the also rans.

Painting and weathering often regarded as the 'fun stuff' but is very unforgiving when the basics are not observed and can never be used as a cover up for skimped workmanship.

Any job is only as good as the preparation. Finesse in my book is getting the model right from the basics through to final finishing.

[Ralph Nardone]

6 hours ago, noelsmith said:

"How would a National Champion he chosen..."

There is no requirement to crown a "National Champion" written anywhere--the highest award available at the IPMS/USA National Convention is Judges' Best of Show, but it is far from being a "National Championship".  There is no "ladder system" requiring models entered in the National Contest to have won before at (first) the local and (then) the Regional levels.

The only requirement is to hold a "National Contest".  It is an open contest--any member in good standing can enter as many models as they please.  They can be previous local and Regional winners, or models recently completed.  

The folly of "healthy competition"... 

Ralph

[JClark]

Ralph

            Well to call an open system exhibition a contest is also Folly. I would rather Lose (if you want to call it that) to a modeler who has a better executed model than to be graded by a judge finding me lacking in finesse.

 

Jim

[noelsmith]

Ralph, Telford is an open contest, the only requirement being that contestants are current IPMS members.

National Champion....or..Best of Show!

Same thing.     Just different terminology as far as I can see at SMW Telford and IPMS USA Convention level

The point I was making was how would that be determined under a GSB system?

Incidentally, IPMS UK dropped the ladder contest as you named it by branch (chapter) qualifiers well over 20 years ago. Why you brought this up I do not know as there was no reference to it in my posts.

 

[Ralph Nardone]

And this is why that "survey" was doomed from the start.  The status quo crowd knew exactly what was on the table.  The open judging crowd couldn't define (as in "were not allowed to") what they wanted to do.  Yes, it was my statement about asking a kid what they wanted for dinner, pizza or something else.  The something else could be liver, it could be ice cream and cake.  I was happy to see that half of those who did take the survey opted for the "something else", but I suspect the other half voted for what they knew.  Or thought they knew--as I discovered in June, I would wager 98% of modelers who put a model on a contest table (any contest table, not just IPMS) never bother to read the rules in the first place.  But that's another story for another time.

And I referenced the ladder system as something familiar to most Americans--to be a "National Champion" at most endeavors in the States, it is generally understood that that team had demonstrated that they are consistent winners at the division and conference level before they get to the playoffs, and they have to win in the playoffs before they can get to the "Big Game".

[JClark]

 I would wager 98% of modelers who put a model on a contest table (any contest table, not just IPMS) never bother to read the rules in the first place.  

 

Brother, you and I will agree on that one!

 

Jim

[Highlander]

21 minutes ago, JClark said:

 I would wager 98% of modelers who put a model on a contest table (any contest table, not just IPMS) never bother to read the rules in the first place.  

 

Brother, you and I will agree on that one!

 

Jim

I wouldn't guess on the percentage of uninformed contestants ... but, based upon judging at local, regional, and national level, I speculate that the percentage is at least half.

Having judged at local and regional level, I would also speculate that, at those levels, at least half the judges are not informed on the rules.  I do understand how difficult it is to dredge up judges -- so the Head Judge has to go with what he can get.  But, after my last several experiences with fellow judges and Class head judges at the lower levels, I no longer judge at them.

Several notable incidents come to mind, but I will not present them.  Let me just say that, if citing the rules, it was like herding cats, some of which had a lack of ability to focus and whose main objective was to start hunting mice in the vendor room as soon as possible.

[Highlander]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:09 PM, Rusty White said:

...the entire membership was surveyed.  ...

I respectfully disagree.  With the realization that I have been unsuccessful in communicating the meaning of the basic statistical term -- "population".

The entire membership (the population of current IPMS members at the time of the survey) was given access to a survey.  Not all responded to the survey.  Therefore, the entire population of IPMS members was not surveyed; if there was one nonrespondent, then the population of IPMS members was not surveyed.  (Granted, one nonrespondent from a large population would have a negligible impact on the results of the survery -- or "poll".)

You could read about sampling techniques ... which took an entire upper division college course for me.

[noelsmith]

Jim Clark made a salient point about a high percentage of contestants not reading the rules properly. From what I have surmised about the IPMS USA Convention judges move models if they are placed in the wrong category? I guess that there must be a lengthy time available for judging to enable this.

At the IPMS UK SMW at Telford we have a very limited time frame in which to judge the models. If models are misplaced or fall foul of the rules they get disqualified, simple as that. The onus is placed on the entrant without exception.

The rules are quite specific. All models have to be pre entered, and it any modeller is unsure about what class to enter they are advised to contact the Competition Secretary before they submit their entry. 

As a judge it is a pity to have to disqualify well made models who's entrant falls foul of the rules.I

Getting back to GSB, golds signify the recognition of a very high level of competence in modelling that would have to be based on a points attained system in the judging, as would the silver and bronze awards.

We used to have a show in the UK named the Model Engineer and Modelling Exhibition that was sponsored by a publisher of model related books and magazines, now unfortunately long gone. They ran the exhibition using the GSB standard, and so the aim was to get a gold rather than a first past the post win with first second or third. The GSB it was felt recognised more modellers for their ability than the First, Second, Third system.

 

[Rusty White]

Noel,

The judges use the registration time to look over the various categories they judge to look for possible changes.  This speeds up the judging process.  There are always one or two that weren't caught.  Those are taken care before judging begins officially.

[noelsmith]

Rusty, is the registration done on the Friday evening prior to the two days of the US convention? It would explain why judges get the time to move models.

Because at Telford models have to be pre registered, the models have to be placed on the competition table by 11am on the Saturday morning of the show, and judged in a tight time frame in the afternoon immediately after the judges briefing. The competitors will have their entry slips already written up to place by the models. They normally get them either by email or in the post well before the show.

Telford is a dedicated exhibition venue, so only the IPMS UK exec. Traders and Table Exhibitors can have entry on the Friday evening for setting up.

As the US convention is generally hotel based, I would guess that you have a bit more flexibility.

[EFGrune]

That’s the difference between a 1 day show and a 3.5 day show.  Modelers register their models and they place them on the table Wednesday afternoon, Thursday, and Friday to 5pm when registration closes.   Judging start at 7pm on Friday. Judges sweep the categories each day to do splits (1:48, Allied, in-line engine versus round engines).  We also sweep for incorrect placement (a 4 engine bomber in a 2 engine category).  
It saves time on Friday night. Some don’t get caught until then, possibly causing a couple of categories to be re-judged (the moved from and the moved to).  That’s why the judges work to get splits and moves done early. Starting at 7pm, it’s not uncommon for the rank & file judges to finish after midnight.  Head judges after that. 
And an unknown fact for most, the contest recorder’s people have just a few hours to prepare the awards list, script for the awards MCs  (the legendary Bill & Aris), take photos for the awards show and for the journal, and prepare for the placement of the awards when the model room closes.  Oh, and get some sleep too. They are shooting for 3pm Saturday to have every task done. 

[noelsmith]

Ed, thanks for the explanation about the Convention judging. You guys certainly get a lot more latitude to judge than we do at Telford.

Is the convention open to the public or just IPMS members?   I have often thought about flying over for one.

Telford is a two day show but competitors models have to left on display in the competition area on the Sunday as the show is also open to the entry fee paying public.

Setup is usually done on the Friday and restricted to the UK Exec. Committee, Traders, Branch (chapter) and Special Interest Groups. 

[EFGrune]

You must be a national member or a member of a foreign branch to enter a model or judge.  
You do not have to be a member to attend. You pay the daily access rate.  It’s 15 dollars this year.  Day pass attendees don’t get the swag bag given to registrants.   
We have 3000+ entries in 9 classes/130 odd categories.  Takes a while. 
A couple of years back I met Tony, the IPMS UK competition secretary. We were on the civil war battlefield above Chattanooga. I corresponded with him and suggested some sites of interest through the South when he came back to SanMarcos TX.   Then the world fell apart

[Rusty White]

Noel,

I'm no longer an official judge, so it's best to ask the Chief Judge about when judging begins.  Registration begins Weds if I'm not mistaken.  As the tables slowly begin to fill up, various judges will paruse the various categories they will judge until the official judging begins, suggesting any possible changes to head category judge.  When I was head Ship Judge, I had everyone take one last look at all the category(s) entries just make certain we had everything where it belonged according to the rules.

FWIW.

 

[EFGrune]

Rusty - in the past few shows ships had about total 200 entries.  Aircraft class might have that many in one category (say 1:48 fighter).  Bill Devins established a system where he had judging team leaders designated at the start of the show.  They would start looking at the entries on Wednesday afternoon and begin creating their splits and shuffling things around.  I’ve picked up some of Devins’ pre-registration ideas for use in ships.   Jim Clark is continuing Bill’s processes. 

Unfortunately I have been forced to miss this years show. My wife came down with break-through COVID on Sunday. I followed her on Tuesday.  Hit me kinda hard. I got regeneron yesterday and feel much better

The NCC had been working on alternate judging due to COVID, as well as succession plans. I had a backup, just hated to drop the mess in his lap on late notice.