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SURVEY SAYS!!! GSB!!!


Rusty White
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Wow Nick

             I think you went down a long path there, LOL.

 

            Ralph, you quoted George 

14 minutes ago, Ralph Nardone said:

Its supposed to be about the models, not the medals.

            If that were truly the case then Why does Wonderfest give out awards? Why does AMPS give out awards, Why does IPMS and all the affiliated chapters give out awards? Because enough people want them.  If it's not about medals then why is the Open system side advocating for wait for it, "The possibility of awarding More medals".  Even the UK nats "Scale model world" where club displays outnumber contest entries by a large amount has a competition section. So if it truly about the models and became a display only event then I would bet the Nats would die.  Plenty of people seem to still enjoy the competition aspect. If a modeler prefers a certain system other than what IPMS offers then they do have options Like AMPS and Wonderfest and the myriad of auto and figure shows out there. 

        This argument/conversation reminds me of the Rivet counter vs Just build for yourself guys. One side describes the other as Mr. Seletas points out (Pumped out chest like it's the NFL).  Then the other side is (well build a better model) . Attitudes based off of perceptions are often just wrong. Everyone enjoys this hobby in different ways . Problems arise when those who "feel" left out want change to "feel" accepted/rewarded.

       As for feedback and learning I would venture to say that the world series is the wrong place to learn how to play baseball. So why then come to a national competition expecting to learn how to model. I know why I didn't place, I know all the issue with my model. The judges found them and I take my lumps. If people have to have the knowledge of why they didn't place that won't happen since you then have to involve other people's models in the reasoning of how the placements were decided upon and we can't do that. One may say they just want critique about their model but what they really want to know is why they didn't place. Then once you tell them what is wrong then THEY start the comparison between others on the table and start arguing with you , Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt....And they could and would do that with an Open system too since they would feel they deserved a higher medal.

    In the end I believe entrants ( both sides of this argument included) need to wrap their heads around the fact that if it is truly about models then go display your model on a contest table and don't get to wrapped up in results. All an award is at the end of the day is icing on the cake of what should be an already awesome modeling excursion to see old friends, buy stuff we don't need, and look at cool models. Sure, it's fun to get something extra and receive an award but but don't let that be the basis of everything like it seems both sides are all about.

 

Jim

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3 hours ago, Nick Filippone said:

Jim and Pete, That was mostly an exercise in creative writing with a little satire. Jim’s summary was much more appropriate and, dare I say it, Judicial? 

Nick

Yup.  That was a lot of words and effort to say; "I don't agree".  😁

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Ralph I would paraphrase a portion of what you said.  No, it's not about models or medals.  It is about people!  The models get nothing out of being put in a contest. 😄

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  • 1 year later...

I would say that Jim summed up my attitude about contests in general and Nationals in particular in his final paragraph. I can't wait to see all you guys again and show off all the new models I built sine the last Nationals!

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Regardless of the outcome of the GSB/123 survey, you can bet that the non-respondents will be the first to complain when and if a change is made in Nationals judging.

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    My question is this, If a change is proposed then I would think it would have to go before the membership since it would require an amendment to the constitution. We would be changing from our annual Convention with a "Contest" to an exposition since the open system is NOT a contest. Then factor in the fallout and the real risk of alienating a big percentage of the membership. Also factor in how the new grading would be accomplished and the fact that AMPS says their system can't be incorporated into a show of the Nationals size. BUT if you have half the membership leave then I guess it could be accomplished. Then what will the AMPS guys do that also attend our shows ? (That has always struck me as funny since AMPS was created out of supposed necessity because they didn't like our system) Now they will have two shows in their system of grading which strikes me as a bit redundant.

    My main beef with the open system at the national level is this. When/If the new standard is written then it applies to all local, regional and the National expositions as is done now. Thus meaning if an entrant wins an award at the local or regional level, then they have now met the IPMS standard for that level of award/grade. All they have have to do is show up at a national and collect another award of the same ranking/rating. Now that would certainly speed up the grading process, simply check in the box that it won X award at a local/regional level and collect your national award. If a team tries to say NO it only gets a silver here then all then entrant has to say is "I met the IPMS standard, why am I being downgraded on the same standard?" That's the beauty of how we do it now, anything can win on any given day based on what shows up. 

 

Jim

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6 hours ago, JClark said:

    My question is this, If a change is proposed then I would think it would have to go before the membership since it would require an amendment to the constitution. We would be changing from our annual Convention with a "Contest" to an exposition since the open system is NOT a contest.

That is a matter of opinion. The National Contest is whatever the NCC declares it to be.

The CBL says: (Article VIII.D)

1. The National Convention and Contest shall be conducted in compliance with the National Convention Operating Parameters set by the Executive Board and the National Contest Rules and Categories provided by the National Contest Committee,

7. The National Convention and Contest shall be conducted under strict compliance with the National Parameters and Contest Rules and Categories provided to the Convention Committee by the National Executive Board.

No amendment needed, but the support of the EB is essential, not to mention the membership.

Besides being somewhat redundant verbiage, it means the NCC could change the rules such that entire the entire contest could be boiled down to Popular Best of Show ballot and be done with the issue. At such point, the President or EB could, if he felt strongly enough, relieve the NCC (i.e., a titled position in a standing committee) of their duties.

I doubt such radical actions will ever be needed, but the mechanism is in place.

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I do remember somebody suggesting a split Contest at some point.

GSB for the "regular guys" and 1-2-3 for a voluntary "master" class.

I didn't think it'd be workable then, and still doubt it could.

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James, Add in  

6. A National Model Contest will be conducted by the Host Chapter at each Convention with appropriate judges and trophies provided by the national organization.

 

Key word in all 3 bullet points 1,6 and 7 is "Contest". The Open system  is again NOT a contest so a change would have to be made to the constitution. Which I would assume would have to go before the membership. Now if the NCC has the power to declare what it will be then I assume it would come down to a slug fest between the eboard and the NCC. Would the Eboard want to force out the NCC then how will that look to the membership half of which may support the NCC and the contest system? . Do the open system proponents really want to go nuclear ?

That's why I say Open system proponents should do as AMPS did. Form their own society, why change ours? That way they can also do like the AMPS guys and double dip by going to their convention and the IPMS convention. I find it amusing that our system is so bad that another way of doing things has to be invented but those very same people  come back and enjoy both.

I'll agree with you in that having both in one room may make things even more confusing especially for newcomers to the show.

 

Jim

Edited by JClark
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contest [ noun kon-test; verb kuhn-test ]


noun
1. a race, conflict, or other competition between rivals, as for a prize.
2. struggle for victory or superiority.
 
******
 
In what way, specifically, does GSB not meet this most basic definition?  Are not prizes given? Is not a victory declared?
 
Also, Section 6 has nothing to do with the EB nor NCC, it places upon a host chapter the duty to include a "contest" in the National Convention, which Section 7 specifies the procedures to be followed.
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James

               In an open system all the entrants are graded against a standard not judged against each other using a standard. So it is not a contest. And no one has yet to answer my question about getting an award at a lower level local or regional event using said standard thus in reality automatically qualifying them to receive the same level award at a national. Walk in and collect your award....

 

Jim

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Jim is correct. As I have said many times discussing this topic, GSB or open judging is indeed not a contest. It is a demonstration of competencies. It is not a competition. While it removes the stress of competition for those who cannot manage it, it likewise removes the suspense and excitement for everyone! 
 

Further, it demands a uniformity in the application of our judging principles and standards by the entire judging cadre, and which would have to be utilized in evaluating many different genres of modeling. This would take years to achieve, if ever. 
 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge 

Edited by Nick Filippone
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8 hours ago, JClark said:

And no one has yet to answer my question about getting an award at a lower level local or regional event using said standard thus in reality automatically qualifying them to receive the same level award at a national. Walk in and collect your award....

The ONLY way to do what you suggest is to remove humans from the equation and replace them with AI. How many times have we seen a regional Best of Show not even get a first in its category at the Nats? Humans make choices.

Don't worry, time is the enemy of IPMS and this outcome will happen sooner rather than later as we are all OLD with few behind us.

As to come in and collect your award, the same could be said from 123:

If we truly honored a hierarchical judging system, once a model has won Best whatever at a regional, one should automatically recieve a first in their category and then only compete against the other regional Best Ofs for the National Best of. The same would be true of Reginal Best of Show. Show. Neither system is perfect as, once again, humans are involved.

 

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37 minutes ago, jcorley said:

The ONLY way to do what you suggest is to remove humans from the equation and replace them with AI. How many times have we seen a regional Best of Show not even get a first in its category at the Nats? Humans make choices.

Don't worry, time is the enemy of IPMS and this outcome will happen sooner rather than later as we are all OLD with few behind us.

As to come in and collect your award, the same could be said from 123:

If we truly honored a hierarchical judging system, once a model has won Best whatever at a regional, one should automatically recieve a first in their category and then only compete against the other regional Best Ofs for the National Best of. The same would be true of Reginal Best of Show. Show. Neither system is perfect as, once again, humans are involved.

 

 James

                 You are absolutely incorrect. A regional best of show may not place because something better showed up that given day, that's the point. It's all based on what shows up and compared to each other, hence direct competition. You can't simply collect your award since you and everyone else has no idea what will show up. 

                In an open system you apply the standard ,if you receive a grade then logic dictates you can't receive anything other than that since it has been graded. If you start giving Silvers to past gold winners then hypocrisy sets in especially using the same standard. That's the rub, You can apply a standard to models to rank them as we do now and get different results all based on what shows up, it becomes and entirely different animal when you do it on an individual basis. You want to see some complaining?, just implement this open system and when you get gold awarded models getting silver or lower using the same standard the bitching will start in earnest. If complaining happens now at least you can say something better showed up and your BOS at a regional doesn't mean anything. 

 

Jim

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And you provedmy point that don't run a hierarchical show system now, why would suppose that would change? Do you actually belive than in a GSB system that only "Best ofs" would compete for best of? After all, as you suggested, one gold winner would just have to show up and collect more gold.

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James

             And you provedmy point that don't run a hierarchical show system now,   > Not sure I'm following you.... 

 

          In an open system you really shouldn't have best of's or a Best in show since now you're back to a competition amongst grade earners. I thought the idea was to get away from competition, to award all deserving models? I wouldn't think any models in GSB would be competing for Best of's since again you don't have a competition anymore. An open system is once again NOT a competition it's a grading system and to call it otherwise is very misleading. Unless you want it to be hypocritical with competition amongst Gold winners. It's one way or the other, pick one.

          If the Open standard has been met at a regional or local level then it has to be handed out at the national level again because the standard/grade for that level of award has been met and it's hypocritical do do otherwise. A grade is a grade for an individual model. The only difference being the judges looking at it and if they are doing their jobs correctly then it's over and done. Local gets a gold then it has to be rubber stamped at the regional/national level, do you really want that? There is no difference between a gold at a local or a national except wording on the plaque. 

         I have to say if we ever go to this format then I'm done with IPMS. I'll just pay my $10 GA, walk the vendor room and the contest room for one day and go home. I'm not about getting graded, I did that back in school a looong time ago. I'm also not about participating in a hypocritical system which this would be if you have golds then "competing" for something else. Come to think of it I'll also save some $$ buy not paying membership dues, convention fees. I have to ask, how does that help the already successful society and convention we have now? 

       For this scheme to be successful you would need to replace all those who left just to break even THEN get even more to "Grow" the society. I've only heard about growing the society I haven't heard about replacing those who will leave. It's a BIG assumption to think everyone will stay if a change is made. And if you want to take the vote as a sample size then you'll lose half. In the end Is it worth it to lose half your membership to "Grow" the society?

 

Jim

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Yes, along with my Ships, Armor, Cars and Bikes, hell even some Sci-fi. I do not participate in hypocrisy. And I don't need grades.  

 The society as a whole is a big statement too as I see others, many others doing the same. 

  We all have choices, it's just a shame that the whole applecart could get overturned based on supposed opinions.

   Why change something successful? it's only opinion that you would be changing for the better. Many don't think that way. So I'll ask again, why not do as AMPS did. Create another option for people who like getting graded. My hats to them and I wish them nothing but the best. 

  If the open system is all that then go start another society . You can do what ever you want from the ground up. Go prove how wrong IPMS is in how they do things. As they say necessity is the mother of invention. So go out there and prove the necessity .

Jim

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Jim and James, I am getting a lot of good info out of your conversation. It has made me think about some things that never occurred to me regarding both methods. Below are just a few quick things.

  • Any type of change always incurs the probability of membership loss, at least short term.
  • As expected both methods have pros and cons. In my opinion the biggest con with the current system is that we have some gray areas in the rules and that the rules seem to be unknown to some contestants. I know they are available and I know people need to be responsible for themselves. It just seems to me that most of the arguments about judging are a result of people not knowing the rules. That is going to be an issue on either side of the fence.
  • I totally understand Jim's point about consistency from contest to contest and the logic regarding a Gold grade at one show necessitating a Gold grade at the next. That said, I believe that AMPS allows for that same model to be modified and graded again. Therefore a Silver graded build could upgrade to Gold, or downgrade to Bronze, with modifications made to it.

 

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Jim

         Your quote> 

  •  I believe that AMPS allows for that same model to be modified and graded again. Therefore a Silver graded build could upgrade to Gold, or downgrade to Bronze, with modifications made to it.

          Talk about campaigning a model and trophy hounding...

 

     In the end you go to a game and expect to see that game. If the NFL changed to badminton I probably wouldn't be inclined to watch, "Hell I don't watch either" but the point remains what is being talked about is a monumental change . One that I believe has the potential to be catastrophically damaging. Which is why I say that those proponents of the open system need to go out on their own as the AMPS guys did. Why possibly ruin what we have. It would be more than just  short term membership loss. Add in the vote there was only 1 more in favor of the open system. We're split, ok that should tell the open guys all they need to know that there may very well be enough of them to go form their own society. And I'm willing to bet they will come back to double dip like the AMPS guys do. So then I'll ask again, how bad are we really? Is there really a need to change when that happens?

 

Jim

     

 

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6 hours ago, ShutterAce said:

That said, I believe that AMPS allows for that same model to be modified and graded again. Therefore a Silver graded build could upgrade to Gold, or downgrade to Bronze, with modifications made to it.

 

AMPS allows the same model to be entered time and again, modified or not, but discourages it for the same reason any other sanctioning body should discourage it--go out and build something new!

How many times have you seen the same model trotted out, year after year, show after show?  It is the scale modeling equivalent of Al Bundy's career as a high school football player...

I like open judging, but frankly, I'd rather see a different change.  Make "Display Only" a recognized class within the rules structure and standardize how they are to be tracked at the Convention.  Use the same forms, with an added line or box for the modeler to indicate that the model is not to be judged.  Up until now, I have seen it done several different ways.  Chattanooga was on the right track with formal Display Only forms, it just needs to go that one step further and make it a standard recognized class in the rules.  It shouldn't take a whole lot of work to make the change.

If one of the mods wants to split this out into a new thread, go for it.

Cheers!
Ralph

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10 hours ago, JClark said:

Add in the vote there was only 1 more in favor of the open system.

The purpose of the survey was to take the membership's "temperature" regarding the popularity of GSB vs 1,2,3.  The survey has no ramifications whatsoever, and there are no plans (known to me anyway) that any changes are forthcoming or being considered by anyone.  Hopefully, the E-board will take another survey in 3 or 4 years just to keep an eye on the popularity of the two systems among the membership.

In short, I wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about any big changes to the current contest structure.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ah, the refreshing GSB thread ... which arises, Phoenix-like, at least once a year.  Much like the omnipresent OOTB thread.

Interesting discussion, but I think it has pretty much gone over the same territory as in the past.  My main interest is the statistics and the interpretation of the statistics by various readers.  I have a firmly held belief -- nobody should be allowed outside until successfully completing Econ 101 and 102 and Statistics 101.

A core element of inferential statistics is the definition of the population.  In our case,  two populations have been discussed -- the population of those who responded to the survey and the population of those who did not respond to the survey.  Others have pointed this out.  We had not randomly sampled the population of all IPMS members and, thus, cannot conclude that the result of the survey reflects a characteristic of all IPMS members.  We face the issue of all polls which rely upon self-selected respondents -- the respondents are motivated to respond in a way that the non-respondents aren't.  The poll tells us nothing about why this is ... we can only speculate.  Which we do.  A lot.

Now, let me see if I can find the latest OOTB thread.

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