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Dakimbrell

ANONYMOUS ISN'T

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On all the contest entry sheets, we fold our names under to make things anonymous. Isn't this silly? A Chattanooga, I watched dozens of people turning over the sheets to see who built something, The judges have to look to avoid sweeps. So why not just leave the name out in plain sight?

It would make it easier to get to know other members, too. 

If the idea was to make it so the judges had no idea who built something and are impartial, it is a total failure. Particularly since so much stuff is on the web and in magazines.

Lets stop this silliness if for no other reason than to protect the models. How many times do judges have to shift a model off an entry sheet to read the builder's name!?

Thoughts?

Dak

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You do not have to look at the builders name to avoid sweeps. That is done by looking at the entry numbers. And you can usually see the entry number without moving the model. I have looked at names if there is no entry number filled out-rarely.

It is not a total failure. Some people will always violate the rules. But it is a good faith effort to enforce objectivity. Anyway, the contest entrants demand it. I can only imagine the outcry when every builders name is revealed. Just because some people ignore the rules does not mean that the rules are bad. 

Have you ever actually judged? Because this idea suggests that you haven’t. My thought is that you should give more thought to these posts.

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

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Nick,

The last paragraph was completely unnecessary and is trolling which violates the forum rules.  Have you read the rules?  Please do so.  Trolling will not be tolerated.  That goes for everyone.  Play nice fellas.

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Ok, Rusty. I give up. Having been called “obtuse and sanctimonious “ in a post by Dak without he having been  threatened, how is what I have said not to be tolerated. It is my impression that what you call trolling is something or something coming from someone you simply do not agree with.

His remarks that insult our rules and our judging staff I see as trolling and offensive. 

If you want to be respected as a disciplinarian, then that discipline must be applied evenhandedly. 

Nick

 

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Nick,

I am not the only moderator here.  I can't read/moderate everything, on every forum, so I must rely on my fellow moderators to help out.  Sorry if you're feeling I'm picking on you.  I promise you I'm not.  I can only answer for what I see.  And yes, I have made mistakes or just missed things in the past and unfortunately will do so again.  For that leniency I apologize, but not for enforcing the rules.  I have chosen in the past, to give everyone a little leniency with the rules for the sake of debate, but apparently you are calling me on the carpet for that.  So, in the future I will call it when I see it. 

I'm not looking for respect or anything else here.  I'm just doing my job as best I can.  All I ask from everyone, is common courtesy so we can all enjoy your and Dave's comments and lively debates.

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Again, this is a matter of PERCEPTIONS....

As Nick rightly points out, experienced judges KNOW that the models get judged fairly DESPITE knowing who built what. You don't need a "name".....many builders have "signature" bases and others have signature styles. Despite that, those models are put through the grinder of the "basics". They're not given a pass nor assumed to make the cut. And, since your entry number at the Nats is your iPMS#, there's no need to read a name to avoid sweeps. Any models with the same IPMS# in the same category are by the same builder.

However, if we were to simply have the names in plain view, the majority of attendees, who do not and have never judged, would BELIEVE that it gave the "honchos" an edge. Thus it's worth it to have the names turned under just to cut down on the belief that some builders have an advantage attached to their name/reputation.

This is not a case of hypocrisy, but instead a case of trying to alleviate unfounded fears and beliefs by those not INTIMATELY familiar with the judging process.

 

GIL :smiley16:

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15 hours ago, Nick Filippone said:

You do not have to look at the builders name to avoid sweeps.

Absolutely true, but on a practical level, ALL the judges I have worked with flip the name over to make sure we haven't picked two by the same person. However, you still need to see the name to fill out the winners list on the judging form. And in the end.....

11 hours ago, ghodges said:

You don't need a "name".....many builders have "signature" bases and others have signature styles.

And if you know the builder, you probably already know what are his entries. Since many stand around an talk about the works on the tables, by the time judging comes around many names are known. Unless you want to forbid people from talking to one another because the might divulge a name?

I challenge the idea the public perceives or cares about the name of the builder influencing the judging. I attend at least one non-IPMS contest where the names are openly displayed and no one has any problem. The idea people object to seeing the builder's name has no basis in hard fact; it is merely a tradition with no real foundation. The majority of attendees are old hands who know or at least have a good idea how things work.

If we are trying to build a more inclusive society and support the sharing of information, making names visible would make it easier to find people and talk to them about their work. There is no rule saying a person can't flip the name to find the builder, but as noted, it does risk damaging the model.

13 hours ago, Nick Filippone said:

His remarks that insult our rules and our judging staff I see as trolling and offensive. 

I fail to see how questioning old and possibly out dated rules and systems are insulting? Why is it when anyone puts out a new or different idea, it is now "trolling" (used in a negative sense)? I have paid my dues in all manner of ways and have a simple right to express opinions politely, which I have done. Are we only a society where a chosen few can speak?

I think posting the entrants name in plain view would be very popular and not the least bit prejudicial.

Dak

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I just went to the Sword and Brush figure show in Toronto this past weekend. While judging is a little different in that they use the open system, they still do have "best of" categories which are directly competitive. Regardless, all the names were plainly visible and everyone knew what everyone else entered and the sky didn't fall.

I suspect this tradition does more for the perception of objectivity rather than objectivity itself. As Dak points out, a lot of the time, especially at local shows, judges have a good idea who entered what anyways, and are pretty objective regardless. I don't think it does much for actual objectivity; it's just a little piece of theatre to make the entrants feel better.

Finally... Dak makes a good point in that there are benefits to having names public. In the world of social media, if someone made a piece you like, you can look that person up and talk to them about it, maybe make a new friend (which is way more valuable than a plaque or a deal in the vendor hall), or ask them for advice. I once had someone try to look me up after a show because he liked one of my pieces, but since my name wasn't visible, there was a lot of "hey, does anyone know who made this?"

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2 hours ago, crimsyn1919 said:

Regardless, all the names were plainly visible and everyone knew what everyone else entered and the sky didn't fall.

😱😀

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I can tell who's model is whose by looking at it...doesn't matter. Basics are basics.

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21 minutes ago, 66Foxtrot said:

I can tell who's model is whose by looking at it...doesn't matter. Basics are basics.

Everyone has their own style. That’s what makes it art.

Dak

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On 9/10/2019 at 10:37 PM, ghodges said:

This is not a case of hypocrisy, but instead a case of trying to alleviate unfounded fears and beliefs by those not INTIMATELY familiar with the judging process.

I agree.  Above all, the process needs to look ok to the general public.

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On 9/11/2019 at 1:01 PM, crimsyn1919 said:

I once had someone try to look me up after a show because he liked one of my pieces, but since my name wasn't visible, there was a lot of "hey, does anyone know who made this?"

Can’t anyone  just turn the sheet over to answer that question...?   And it isn’t like you need to flip the whole thing over, just lift the front edge enough to see the folded under part.

And if the model is parked solidly on top of the sheet, you could always go to the registration desk and and ask “ Who is contestant #37?”

 While it is a bit silly in reality, it does reinforce the illusion of anonymity. I think   It would be hard for a local club to be the first in the area to make the change to stop doing this, if all the other clubs do it the old way.   I can’t see how I’d convince my fellow PatCon committee members that this was something we needed to do — the risk/reward proposition seems out of whack...

 

-Bill

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is there a lexicon of terms somewhere on the forum? I figured out "basics", but am lost at "sweeps" & "open system".

 

thanks

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Sweeps means to sweep a category. To take more than one award in the category. 

Open system is basically the GSB system. You can have more than three winners in a category. 

The general public does not know what we do to judge nor do they care how we do it. In any event, those interested enough in models also go to those venues that show the name and have no trouble with those events. 

Trying to find a name through registration is not simple. They are usually busy registering the incoming models and have little time to sift through stuff to find one name. And you will most likely make those waiting to register their entries pretty annoyed.

What risk is there to having the name in plain sight? We have a well organized judging group. Many of them know one another. The teams are well balanced and trained. Many things give away the builder. So, what is the so called “risk”?

In fact, it would probably make things seem more fair and open. Hiding the name implies something secret we don’t want the public to know.

Also, the benefit of having names visible could pay off with more young women building models and entering contests. A young girl clearly seeing another girl’s name will understand  this is not a male only event. If you want to impress the general public, this would be better than keeping secrets. 

Dak

Edited by Dakimbrell

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At SMW Telford all competition models have to be pre registered by a certain date and are issued a competition number that is logged on to a computer with the builders name. Only the entry number appears on each entry card on the table, so the person"s  name remains anonymous even to the judges. When the awards are given it is a simple matter for the Competitions Secretary to cross reference the entry number and match it to the entrants name on the computer.

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10 hours ago, noelsmith said:

At SMW Telford all competition models have to be pre registered by a certain date and are issued a competition number that is logged on to a computer with the builders name. Only the entry number appears on each entry card on the table, so the person"s  name remains anonymous even to the judges. When the awards are given it is a simple matter for the Competitions Secretary to cross reference the entry number and match it to the entrants name on the computer.

That's all fine, but it doesn't guaranty the models are truly anonymous. Nor does it prove there is a need for this function. It serves to only add another layer of work for the contest staff just when people are getting tired.

There are plenty of safe guards to prevent merely voting the builder's name. If the general public has no idea how we judge (or even cares) and the contest entrants do know how we do it and also know one another, then hiding the name has no valuable function. All it does is make things more difficult for the judges and the contest staff.

If you do not know the person named on the form, that person is in effect anonymous.  If you recoqnize the models, it is not anonymous.  If you do know the name, then you probably already know the builder and what he has entered. Additionally, many models have been entered and placed in other contests, further eroding the anonymity. Can anyone dispute this is true?

Keeping the builder's name hidden does nothing but help isolate us even more us in a solitary hobby. We should be opening up and inspiring communication between members instead of putting up meaningless walls. 

Dak

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On 9/12/2019 at 7:54 PM, rcboater said:

I think   It would be hard for a local club to be the first in the area to make the change to stop doing this, if all the other clubs do it the old way.   I can’t see how I’d convince my fellow PatCon committee members that this was something we needed to do — the risk/reward proposition seems out of whack...

Local clubs are often the first to deviate from the National rules. Some currently use the GSB system, while others impose rules stricter than the national. I have been informed one group in Texas prohibits drilling out machinegun barrels in Out-of-the-Box.

I still can't see what the "risk" is in having names in plain sight. Can you please explain what this risk actually entails.

Dak

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I don’t think a concern for adherence or conformity to National rules is a concern here.   Every club show I’ve ever been to has one or more unique rules they use.   (And I’m lucky- there are six IPMS clubs putting on annual contests within a 2 hour drive radius from the Boston area.).  

By Risk/Reward, I meant “ Return on Investment”, or are the results worth the effort to make the change?  

If you are the only club in the area to make the change, you are exposing the show to a potential loss of perception of impartiality, even though it is basically unjustified.   ( Perception is reality, unfortunately.).  

The benefits are difficult to quantify-  I rather doubt anyone is going to thank the club for making the change. And some would likely contend that it doesn’t matter much -  that knowing the builder’s name only makes a small difference, as most of the names aren’t people you know who they are anyways.  

So there is little real incentive to overcome the FUD factor to make the change - the risk/reward.

And personally, to me, it isn’t something worth fighting for....  there are bigger fish to fry.

 

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10 minutes ago, rcboater said:

If you are the only club in the area to make the change, you are exposing the show to a potential loss of perception of impartiality, even though it is basically unjustified.   ( Perception is reality, unfortunately.).  

What perception of impartiality? Few competitions of any type... if any... keep the contestant secret. (Besides a model contest, I can't think of any.) If the contest is decided by the general public without any checks, perhaps it would have validity, but it is not, is it.  Don't you think you are being a bit insulting to imply that people don't trust the IPMS judges? At Chattanooga, it looked like there were at least 200 members judging. That is a pretty large percentage of the attendees. Yet, the implication is we can't be trusted.

The general public does not care how we judge. How can putting the name in plain sight compromise this? There is no "perception of impartiality" based on hiding the names of the entrants; it is a myth based on no valid information. We divide up the judging teams to mix the different areas of the country. Most people judge outside their areas of modeling. Since no one model is awarded based on one vote, it seems pretty impartial.

I am saying hiding the names is a waste of time and actually hurts the show. Putting names in plain sight would yield a high return on investment.

Dak

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No, I don’t think I’m being insulting to judges,  as I think we’ talking about different things. I’m talking about local events, you’re talking about the Nationals.   I would agree with you that it there’s no reason to hide the entrants’ names at the Nationals.  All the contestants are members, and know the drill.  

It isn’t so cut and dried at local events -  where maybe 15% of the entrants are IPMS members.... there, the perception of the non-members matters.  We brought it on ourselves, as we have conditioned them to expect this over the decades.  That makes it harder to convince the (local) Show Organizers  they need to change anything now......

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Dak, the Telford method works quite well as all the entries have been logged onto a laptop by the entry date of at least a couple of weeks before the show. We have dedicated helpers to log on the winners on competition day, 1,2 and 3 in each class plus any odd commendeds and is done as the judges results come in. It is both efficient and quick. All the judges get together at the end to choose the overall best of show. The method of registration is about as anonymous as possible.

I do take your point about us old timers who have been around IPMS a long time getting to recognise certain modellers own individual styles over the years. Unfortunately there is nothing any one can do about this, and the competition can only be made as fair as is humanly possible. Anonymity will I think remain a contentious subject judging by the differing posts on this thread.

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16 hours ago, rcboater said:

It isn’t so cut and dried at local events -  where maybe 15% of the entrants are IPMS members.

 

12 hours ago, noelsmith said:

and the competition can only be made as fair as is humanly possible.

While I get the point you are talking about local events and not the National, you actually support my position. I do not claim to know the methodology of every local contest, but I do believe the non-club members will see the people running the show entering, talking to other club members....or those from other relatively local groups... then judging, and some of them winning awards. If the non-members felt there was unfairness, collusion, or general impropriety, don't you think they would be talking about seeing club members appear to be colluding?

If perception is important, then having those running the contest or entered in it doing judging always erodes the idea of impartiality. (However, not having the local club involved in the judging is disastrous...I speak from experience.) So it is doubtful showing names will upset anyone.

We are adults...well, most of us...and it would be nice to be treated that way. I still do not know of any other type of competition which hides the name of the entrants.

18 hours ago, rcboater said:

And personally, to me, it isn’t something worth fighting for....  there are bigger fish to fry.

It is all small fish.

Dak

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2 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

 

While I get the point you are talking about local events and not the National, you actually support my position. 

Dak

Yes I do.  

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