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The PR problem


Dakimbrell

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This is a big part of our PR problem, although a bit different from what I originally posted about.

Noel, you have not answered my question about Rembrandt's Night Watch and my diorama Capturing The Moment? Why is one art and the other not? (ignoring the size difference.) The diorama (as a whole) is not a kit. It is a composite of many elements to create a scene and tell a story. The idea is as original as the Night Watch and similar in concept.

All the fore thought which goes into doing a model, is virtually the same as a that for a painting. Inspiration, choice of subject, research, and point of view. The final choice in how it is to be displayed is also an important element.

Taken as a whole, Capturing The Moment is a grouping of many different elements. The placement of each element was carefully considered for visual effect in much the same way Rembrandt posed his figures if the Night Watch. Even if it is nothing but Found Art, it is original in concept. So, please explain WHY this is not an art form.

No one can force you to be considered and artist. I am only pointing out by accepting what we do as art, we will appeal to many who at first thought we are only a group of children. The simple changing of a word here would make a big difference.

Dak

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I am on topic. The topic is Public Relations - how IPMS is perceived by members and non-members. What could possibly be more important in cultivating a favorable perception of this organization than our members demonstrating sensitivity about such an important episode in history as the Holocaust? Nick

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David: I believe you're getting bogged down in your own argument about art. This entire discussion centers on our PR problem, which in turn hinges on how people outside of IPMS perceive us. Whether or not we see ourselves as artists doesn't really matter. What matters is (from your perspective) is whether being seen AS "artists" will help us overcome the PR problem, or re-enforce the already existing problem. I don't see how being artists helps much.

Let's refocus and try looking at it this way: Let's say we're a society of DANCERS (yet a different art form). Lot's of people like to dance, some more than others, and some are better at it than others, be it through a natural talent or practice. THAT can be exactly equated to building models. Now, as a dance society, I believe IPMSUSA would be equated to and viewed as (for ex.) "ballroom" dancers: a group who know what they're doing and are serious about their craft. I do not think IPMSUSA would be looked upon as a DANCE CLASS, where people go to learn how to dance and get better at it. So, we would NOT look appealing to join to the "average" person who likes to simply hit the clubs and dance. There would actually probably be an intimidation factor of not being ready or worthy to be a part of a group so far "above" their own level. No matter how much they might respect and admire IPMS (as dancers) for being good at that "art", it does not help us overcome the PR problem that EVERYONE is welcome and IPMS IS a place to learn and become better at your craft.

You are quite correct in that much of the general public probably looks on building models as playing with toys. But, we're not concerned about the general public...we're concerned with changing the minds of model builders who are not IPMS members. THOSE people do not look at the hobby as being merely for kids, or playing with toys. But MOST of them also are not as "invested" as we are in the hobby. The PR problem for that group of initial joiners is for them to see us as a group that WANTS beginning and "average" modelers (which is actually what most of our membership considers themselves, artist or not).

No matter how we view our hobby, no matter whether we're artisans or merely plastic hackers; there are 2 PR problems to overcome: the idea that we are an "elite" group that requires a level of expertise to be a part of (the intimidation factor); and the insidious reputation (deserved or not) we have as accuracy anal color nazis.

 

GIL :smiley16:

 

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2 hours ago, Nick Filippone said:

I am on topic. The topic is Public Relations - how IPMS is perceived by members and non-members. What could possibly be more important in cultivating a favorable perception of this organization than our members demonstrating sensitivity about such an important episode in history as the Holocaust? Nick

The general public is not reading these long forums. Additionally, who died and made you the moral judge of exactly what is an appropriate.

Dak

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Gil, you are correct, at least to some degree. But as I noted, some model builders and their families feel model building is not an appropriate adult behavior. It is a staple of sit-coms to talk about how pathetic model builders are.....usually train people....and we need to over come that attitude.

I know some feel we are intimidating. I don't really understand this aspect because participating with top flight modelers is a draw for me. Perhaps we should take a more aggressive approach. If you want to build better models, then be part of an organization that builds good models. The current 'ahh shucks, we ain't special" attitude isn't working all that well.

I have to wonder where and when the idea started we are an elite group. I noted IPMS and most of the local chapters, don't require an audition to join or have a probationary period. Nor does anyone have to win at other contests to qualify to enter the National. However, it does cost quite a bit to attend a National, if it is far enough away you need an hotel and I know that intimidates some. However, I doubt we can change that.

One thing that would help is for more members to write articles for the Journal to show more diversity in subject matter. For example, I do cars on occasion, but I'm not a car guy, so any article I pen is not going to impress the car guys and make them want to join the society. If you can post here, you can write an article for the Journal.

Another thing that could fight the intimidation factor is to change contests to consider skill levels. Let the entrant pick the level which she/he is comfortable. Other groups do this.

Also, we could make more effort to recruit female members. Also, advertise at colleges: show how model building relates to architecture, engineering, history, theater, and yes, art.

Dak

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Gil  has summed up the PR problems in his last paragraph, but there is another. Many people outside the society still have the notion that we are just aircraft modellers. Why this still persists after fifty odd years is anyone's guess!

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16 hours ago, ghodges said:

No matter how we view our hobby, no matter whether we're artisans or merely plastic hackers; there are 2 PR problems to overcome: the idea that we are an "elite" group that requires a level of expertise to be a part of (the intimidation factor); and the insidious reputation (deserved or not) we have as accuracy anal color nazis.

Ok, so we have clearly identified the problems. So, what do we do about them?

My solutions is a specific Public Relations campaign to address these issues and show they are not true. For example, I am considering creating a free handout for my local store on basics for improving your model.  For example, many novices don't think about seams and mold marks and can't understand why these things are important. It would not talk about contests, but merely promote what most groups accept as good, basic work. This sort of thing could be done on an individual basis. It could both promote the local chapter as well as the national one.

A re-design of the regionals and Nationals..... and possibly local chapter contest like Scalefest and SoonerCon…to allow the entrant to choose her/his skill level for the contest. Say levels....Novice, Intermediate, and Master. For those who feel intimidated, it gives a more tempting way to get their feet wet than swimming with the big dogs.

Thoughts, anyone?

Dak

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Many people outside the society still have the notion that we are just aircraft modellers. Why this still persists after fifty odd years is anyone's guess!

This misconception is due to ignorance of the organization or just plain discriminatory behavior by poor losers, pure and simple as explained previously.

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3 hours ago, Rusty White said:

This misconception is due to ignorance of the organization or just plain discriminatory behavior by poor losers, pure and simple as explained previously.

This is only partially true. The individual which prompted me to start this string is an excellent figure painter and hardly can be considered a loser. I agree some... and Rusty knows exactly who I'm talking about....are sore losers and trying to blame everyone but themselves for their problems. But you can't say that about groups like AMPS, for example.

Dak

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  • 2 weeks later...

The first thing we need to do for our own PR is talk up modeling when ever you can. Modeling is a solitary hobby mostly done by yourself in your hobby room so a Society like IPMS/USA is a great way to make new friends and meet people with like interests.

My own experience came over 33 years ago when I joined my local club and was the only automotive modeler in the group. Took some time to get in with the group but I helped myself by inviting other automotive modelers I met along the way - 6 to 8. Some stayed and some left rather quickly and life took it toll also.

PR is up to all of us and we have a harder time now than ever before due to the need for instant gratification that seems to be the norm today. Having recently moved to Hawaii, I was invited to an neighbor's BBQ to meet families in our neighborhood. During a conversation on history I asked the neighbor if he built models and found out the he and his oldest son had just begun doing just that. So I offered to be a resource for questions. That is how PR should be done - get out and ask.

Have a nice day and build a model.

David Von Almen, Gentleman Modeler (now in the islands)

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4 hours ago, dvonalmen said:

The first thing we need to do for our own PR is talk up modeling when ever you can.

Absolutely! It has always amused me that so many act ashamed that they build models. It is an art and people should respect it as such, but they will not if people keep acting like wall flowers.

Toujours de l'audace!

Dak, renaissance modeler

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1 hour ago, JClark said:

Errors in the build process are not accuracy issues.

Well, I suppose that is how you look at them, so I stand by my statement. I would never judge the shade of paint, or put calibers to a model, but that big glob of glue is not accurate (generally) and is poor craftmanship as well.

All model building is art. Not all is great art anymore than the doodles on a napkin by Picasso are great art. (regardless of how valuable they are.) At the very least, model building is found art...where you take premade items and turn them into something else. Each model builder brings his own unique take on how something should look. That means the shade of color used, specific placement of markings, application of paint, and countless other little details. For example, that figure you mentioned is based on a two dimensional picture, so you paint the back side...the unseen side...to suit your minds eye.

2 hours ago, JClark said:

Well the real aircraft leans in real life so that's why I modeled it as such. Yeah right you just weren't about fixing it because we all know Models are supposed to be square and plumb to the naked eye.

There are a number of vehicles where not all wheels touch the ground unless it is under load. I have seen aircraft that sag to the side because of pneumatic or hydraulic bleed off, when powered down. There are countless things which not all are aware of and the entrant must make the effort to explain things. The judge should not impose his view on the situation. In times past, I have met judges that did claim something is not possible even though the evidence was presented to them. It is hard to discuss this because for every example given someone will find an exception.

We do judge style. It is ambiguous and changes over the years, but a certain look becomes popular...like Verlindenization was in the late seventies...and if the model isn't following that style, it suffers in competition. Its all part of a big picture that people pick up on subconsciously. Certain colors are not appealing, no matter how accurate they are and thus put people off.

The skill level based contest as I have described it over in the Survey string, is based on the entrant's own personal choice as to what level they want to compete at. We would not be creating a Master class. If you feel you are as good as those in the master division, then enter there. It does keep the allow the newbies from being FORCED to compete with the masters, as they are now.

The number of awards needed would not change, if we use a single award system. I.E. you win an award or you do not; there is no ranking of the award as the is now. The awards would be apportioned out based on the number of entries in a class. More models in a class; more awards in a class.

Dak

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52 minutes ago, JClark said:

Glue blob is construction,

Really? What makes it an important construction point? I have a local guy that regularly leaves glue globs on his models because he sees it as an unimportant item. He thinks we are silly for being so picky. We are picky because real P-51s rarely have glue globs at the wing root. However, I was recently looking at a real Cobra gunship with enough silicone globs around some panels, it would get bumped for poor craftsmanship.

As for style, check back to a previous issue of the Journal on an article on pre-shading, I think. There are photos of two models of the exact same aircraft. One is fairly pristine and one is weathered much more heavily. The choice of which you like is based on style. It is hard to explain, but two models being equal, but one being weathered and the other not, one will win and one will not. That involves style and the artist's approach to the subject. There are plenty of other elements that come into judging models, but I am not so naive to pretend style is never considered, at all. This is why you need a well mixed judging team. The big trick is to be able to recognize something as style and not as the only way to build an acceptable model.

Currently in contests, we have some categories that are entered lightly or not at all and we arrange for splits in others. The national gives out about 200 place awards. So, in a skill level event, you apportion them based on the numbers entered in the divisions. There are three divisions....Novice, Advanced, and Master. Say the National has 2400 entries, 1200 of them novice, 800 advanced, and 400 master. Using a Single Awards System more awards would be given out in the Novice than the other two. You still only give out 200 awards. Its far easier than trying to keep creating more categories.

Dak

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12 hours ago, JClark said:

No, again we are picky because you can't leave glue behind while building "A model"..

We are picky because we have chosen this sort of thing as a point of craftsmanship because real things rarely have glue and big open seams. Others, do not see this lack of craftsmanship as a problem. They have a totally different take on what makes a good model. I do not agree with them, nor do I think we should try to accommodate them. I merely use this one guy as an example of different points of view. He has never won our local monthly contest which is judged primarily following IPMS rules.

Accurately modeling globs of silicone glue is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be note on the entry sheets. Preferably, a photo should accompany the sheet to clearly illustrate what and why it was done. No, just claiming a glue glob is something like silicone doesn't cut it.

12 hours ago, JClark said:

If you are apply the rules correctly the fact that one is and one isn't won't play into the decision. If it does then you as a judge are picking what you like and again you can't do that. 

Not true. Often, both in culling and in the final choices, what the Judges like is always the a factor in picking the winners. This does not preclude all the other elements which are looked at first. In one contest, we had two Tiger tanks with interiors (same kit). One was pristine, no weathering what so ever, with bright polished brass shells in the racks. The other had realistic weathering which is why it placed and the other did not. All the judges agreed as did the head judge. The first Tiger had nothing significant wrong with it, but we felt it lacked something. In the past forty-two years, I have worked with judges that positively hated any weathering because they felt it was a way to hide defects. Also, I have worked with judges who seem to believe mere kit complexity made a model the winner. Others that felt a diorama wasn't good unless it duplicated a picture. This is why a well balanced team is essential to get the best results. When one style is dominant among the judges, the results are reflected in the winning models. It is not uncommon for two different teams to get different results from the same category.

12 hours ago, JClark said:

No more categories just lump everyone together per division.

Who said that? Class and categories certainly help organize things. You are correct, I did misspeak about the number of awards. So, we round off at 600 and split them up according to the number of entries. If 1/72nd Novice aircraft gets 200 entries, it gets allotted more awards than 1/72nd scale Novice ships with only 5 entries. Yes, the Single Award System only uses one award and does not rank the models as does the current systems. You would win an award or not; no quibbling over 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, or Gold, Silver, Bronze. Do you feel we NEED to rank the winners? The award itself could be a medal, like in Phoenix or a big bowling trophy; there is simply no ranking.

Why would Masters win more awards, if the awards are apportioned? The idea is to let the entrants pick a level at which they are comfortable. The Advanced judging would be more strict than Novice and Masters would be more exacting than Advanced. Winning in the Master division would be both more difficult and more prestigious because of that. But a adult entering a National for the first time, would not be forced to compete with the top players, as they are now.

I have been building models since I was four years old and entering contests and judging since I was eleven. I am well aware of the IPMS rules and build most of my models to comply with the rules. I feel this gives me good experience from which to draw.

Dak

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22 minutes ago, dmorrissette said:

I think the discussions on this thread are part of the PR problem. People discussing and arguing about a hobby most just want to have fun turns people away

I don't see all that many reading this, particularly non members. And those who "just want to have fun" get very unhappy went the contest gets messed with badly.

Dak

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2 hours ago, JClark said:

We are picky because these are points of craftmanship... Period. Not because they are not on the real things.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?As I said, it depends on your point of view. Many, like myself, see craftsmanship and accuracy as going somewhat hand in hand. As I said, it is a complicated subject and cannot be clearly wrapped up in a few paragraphs. I remember an aircraft builder who had carefully puttied over some seams on a tank model, which should be there. If someone filled up the intake of his F-16, people would have a fit, if he won with it, regardless of how well done it was. Craftsmanship has is own limitation as a tool for judges and you can err by leaning too much either way.

I think the system we have now works fine, such as it is. Most of the judges I have worked with have been knowledgeable and prepared for the job. I still feel personal appeal is an important factor. I have had excellent success building my models in a way that have good visual draw to them. One submarine I did was weathered as I would a tank and has never failed to get an award. In fact, all the ships I have done that way have won awards, so I will stick with what works, even if you believe it has no effect. Certainly, I like to think I've put good work and research into a project, but making it so people want to look at it never hurts. Of course, like the stock market and craps table, past performance is no guaranty of future performance.

As for the contest design, we already run out of awards on occasion. If the number of entries continue to grow...as we hope it will...then we will need to expand the categories to allow more people a chance to win and increase the number of awards. 600 awards is still 600 awards no matter how we hand them out. I would say there would be less categories. OOB, for one would no longer be needed. And each contest would get some custom fitting as is done now. That's why we have splits, right? No, I don't see the Skill Level idea going over with the membership because many are obsessed with ranking their model, even thought they would stand more chance of winning an award than they do now.

I'll be in Chattanooga on Wednesday, around noon. I'll be wearing the cape and goggles.

Dak

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I can say I have NEVER been to a contest were personal appeal has not ultimately come into play. If all the category entries are poor quality....and you know some are nothing but weak entries...or there is a mass of superb work, at some point, the judges will have to base a decision on what they like. A Ferrari over a Mustang, a Sherman over a Tiger tank, a Zero over a Fw-190, etc. There are many cases where there is no other way to decide. Unless you contrive to find some defect everyone can agree on.

Contest awards. Last year, you had 2367 entries. This year, they are hoping to do better than that. The target of 3000 has been passed around. With a fixed number of categories, that means a smaller percentage of entrants can expect an award. Even if they only go to 2450, the winning percentage still shrivels.

Dak

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Dak, By what confabulations do you get these notions?  Where is your data? I have judged 35+ years and have never used preference for a particular subject to make a judging decision. Nor have I ever seen a judge do it- at any level. Such an idea insults conscientious judges. There is always another way to decide and good judges can always find it! 

I would be happy to give you a primer on good judging at the Nationals, if you are open to improving your judging skills. From your last posting, it sounds like you would benefit from it. 

Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

 

 

 

 

 

 

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All I am saying is that in the final stages of judging, depending on the entries, it sometimes comes down to personal choice. For example, at a recent National, one category had three poor models. I mean none were well done and none were better than the other two. We explained it to the head judge and he had no problem with our choice. In the end, my team just went with the one we liked the best because the work was so poor, but all three got awards. In 2017, my team was judging some very good models and in the end, the choice between the two very best was based on the fact we all liked one more than another. If I had had my way, we would have had a tie for first place, but that was not an option. Again, the head judge had no problem with our decision.

In culling in another category, none of us liked a particular model. A quick look was all it took to see it was not in the same class as the other entries. There was no in depth study; it was just quickly pushed aside.

Nick, I have confidence my judging skills are as good as yours. I keep a copy to the hand book on my phone.

Dak

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10 hours ago, JClark said:

   The class head judge may have agreed with your choice. But did he know HOW you came about it? That's the key. You find whatever nit picky detail you can to make a decision. I have said my peace on how unfair this is to entrants to simply pick your favorite.... And all I am saying is in the final stages, depending on the entries, it always comes down to fining the one with the least weighted errors. That's defendable. Picking your favorite is NEVER defendable.

Jim,

You and Nick are being both obtuse and sanctimonious about this point. Additionally, you have latched on to a small remark and blown it way out of proportion and removed it from context. When you are trying to decide between 1st and 2nd, you must make a call about which flaw is more damning. Is the tiny mold seam more import than the tiny bit of silvered decal. That is a personal choice, even if it is agreed upon by all involved. Personal choice or opinion always comes in at some point. Maybe both are considered equal and in the end, you go with which model you like best. -The one you and the other team members like best-

Keep in mind, all of my "personal choices" were backed up by at least two other judges and certified by the class head judge. To some degree, both you and Nick (if you were judging) signed off on it by accepting which one we submitted as a candidate for Best of Class. A lot of people looked at the winners chosen and had no problem. At no time was this ever a case of one person working alone.

The judge's handbook is a group of guidelines..... and something that changes, from time to time. If you look at the first line of the first paragraph, you will see it says model building is an art. And what is good art is always a case of personal taste. In the end, we must rely on the judge's experience as both a model builder and judge.

If you move down to the aircraft section, you will see it says "contours should be corrected". Who decides what it correct? How would you decide it is correct, unless you are judging accuracy? It may not look right to you, but it did to the builder. If there is one line I here constantly when judging, it is "that doesn't look right". That leads to (or at least should) discussion between the team members about what we are seeing.

At no point in the handbook does it say one flaw or problem is more important than another. That is left to the personal choice of the judges.

Dak, IPMS Judge and renaissance modeler 

 

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This thread has drifted well away from the PR problem and has become one about the finer points of judging.

I think that everyone posting on this thread has made their personal views well known by now, and it is going nowhere except for just more lengthy replies being made.

Regardless of all this IPMS is where it is, and I can foresee the same discussions and arguments taking place in another 10 years from now. So basically what I am saying is that I can't foresee any great changes being made, and the society will carry on in just the same way as it always has.

Maybe we take ourselves too seriously at times and forget it is just a hobby that we should all enjoy regardless of skill level!

Edited by noelsmith
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