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Yes, I am a great believer in the get involved concept. I have seen many whine and complain, but never bother to step up and help out. That is part of what I mean by enthusiastic good intentions.

Now that I am retired, I think I may run in the next election for president.

Dak

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22 hours ago, noelsmith said:

Ralph, thanks for explaining AMPS and Jaxcon for me.

In the UK the AMPS equivalent is the MAFVA (Miniature Armoured Fighting Vehicle Association) that is just about modelling AFV's and not full size vehicle preservation.

Naturally MAFVA members would also be interested in the preservation of full size vehicles and have many contacts within museums and AFV preservation groups although not directly involved with preservation as an association.

Actually there's an International chapter that's headed by someone in the UK, so you have AMPS there too.

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Thanks for the extra info Michael. I was not aware that there was an AMPS chapter in the UK.          It is possible then that they might have a link with MAFVA?

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Noel,

His name is Chris Lloyd-Staples. A search of AMPS will give his contact info.

John

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Having given it some thought, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. If we really want to improve the National contest....any of them for that matter, we should change to a skill level format. Novice, advanced and master divisions. Let the entrant pick the level they are comfortable entering. Go easier on the Novices and very hard on the Masters.

Reduce the classes to the basics and using a Single Award System, apportion awards based on the number of entries in each class. Maybe use Bronze, Silver, and Gold to color code the skill levels.

Getting newbies to participate is the key to increasing IPMS membership. Allowing them to get their feet wet without having to swim in the deep end is a good way to accomplish that.

Dak

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I'm for it--but how do you regulate it?  Does each entrant self-appoint all the time, or after earning a 1st/Gold at one level, are they promoted to the next level? 

It would require the establishment of a National database to keep track, and all Chapters would need to have access to it in order to properly run their shows.  This is what I mean by "Standard, Uniform" contests system throughout IPMS/USA. 

You can't "wing it" and expect things to police themselves...

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Not much regulation as I envision it. Most of the rules we use now would continue without change. You break the classes down to the basics...Aircraft, Armor, Ships, Automotive, Figures, Scit-fi, Dioramas, Collections, and Misc. Maybe a bit more, if it helps the judging go more smoothly. Each division has the same classes. You enter the division with which you are comfortable. Judges do reserve the right to move people if they see fit, as they do now.

In a Single Award System, the medals/trophies are all the same. In this case modified so Novices are all Bronze, Advanced are all Silver and Masters are all Gold.

You could enter your ship in Novice and your tank in Masters, and a diorama in advanced. The award design tells at what division level you won. Of course, the Master s is more prestigious than Novice. But the choice of competition is up to the entrant.

So Ralph could win a Masters gold for his tank, an Advanced silver for his helicopter, and a Novice Bronze for his car. The following year you could enter everything in Novice. What does it matter?

I'm not sure why local chapters would worry any more about the National winners than they do now. True perhaps, if you want a standardized contest through the country, but I don't see that happening any more than it does now.

Dak

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So,  to get newbies to participate you establish skill levels.  Most noobs will compete as a Novice.  And the best they can win is a Bronze?

We have to go back to the question "What dpes IPMS/USA envision as the purpose of their models conetests?"

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Well Ralph, different people compete for different reasons. That applies to anything whether its fishing or football, Monopoly or tiddly winks. That even people who go to subject specific events like AMPS come to the National too says they like competition. I seriously doubt people would bring models hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles, just to only display the models. Yes, I might show up one day to run through the vendors, but I would not pay money to do that. And if I am going somewhere just to hang out for four days, I will go to Las Vegas. It always cost me less than an IPMS convention, anyway.

So, you don't like GSB as a color code for the awards, so we'll make them white for Novice, Red for Advanced and Blue for Masters. The awards shows your model was deemed good work, and the color signifies the level. Actually, I think there are bunch of Noobs who would enter in the Masters division, and then get angry when they get body parts handed back to them. At least THEY made the decision to go bold, and not forced to do so based on the mere fact they are over 18.

The big thing is people will be able to participate in the competition at a level where they feel comfortable. Currently, if you aren't a junior, you have to dive in and swim with the sharks. If the awards are apportioned based on the number of entries, then they would stand a better chance of winning an award than they do now.

Dak

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Good afternoon all.  Being a week removed from the Chattanooga I am reflecting on the awesome display and vendor room and the opportunity to meet and greet some of those I have come to know through social media.  I am fairly new to IPMS, only a little over 3 years in the society and back into modeling after a long hiatus.  I have a question and 2 cents to throw in the pot (some of you can probably make change for that)  I had the opportunity to judge in the miscellaneous category and was surprised when over a dozen pieces of armor were brought over to a category outside of tanks because they had more than two figures on them.  I am not understanding why they would be moved out of armor.  The terms vignette and diorama were used and based on what I can find out a tank with 3 more crew members and no base meet none of these criteria.  If a tank isn't a tank anymore because it has more than 2 crew members on it what is it now...a tankful?   When one of the judges was asked if the category could be split and tanks with more than 2 crew members judged as such since we had plenty of entries, we were told no., the should have read the rules.  So now you have a dozen or more pieces of armor that fall into the category "limbo" where there are no prizes awarded.   Isn't it time to rethink the armor category or add a category or two to solve this problem?  My understanding is that this issue has been around for probably as long as the judging system issue has been out, maybe even longer. 

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The last time I checked, the rules say max of two crewmen. One can be on the ground. Other items like a ROV, walls, and trees can throw the model into dioramas. 

In 2011, there were several entries in the straight categories that had excessive ground work or a large number of figures. The rules were changed to force these out. ( 12 figures riding on a tank is way too many for the closed top AFV category.)

The rules are published, and many stay within the parameters set. I do not always agree with them, but they are clear and easy to define, which was the objective.

I saw several models which should have been in dioramas, but were not. If we are going to have a rule, we should follow it, or delete it.

Dak

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The rationale for rules such as these is, as always, to maintain as level a playing field as possible. Armor entries with a lot of figures may be perceived as being advantaged in the eyes of the judges over a model with few or no figures. Hence the limit. 

As Dak has suggested,  the rules are plain and available for all to see. When competing at a level as high as the IPMS Nationals, it would behoove one to familiarize oneself with them before planning and building an entry. Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge.

 

 

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I too saw some models in the 1/35 scale closed top that I thought should have been in the vignette category because of more that 2 figures with Mark Ford's best tank coming to mind. I spoke to Dave Kahn about this and was informed that Mark had pinned the extra figures to the base and that they were removed for judging. Smart! Later at the awards ceremony when the slide of Mark's tank was shown, sure enough, the extra figures were not there. It pays to ask.

John 

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Here is the actual rule:

Bases – Military Vehicles. Any AFV model that is displayed upon a base may have ‘basic’ groundwork; i.e., dirt, grass, roadway, a low stone wall, etc. No part of that groundwork may extend taller than the topmost portion of the body of the model; i.e., no trees, buildings, structure, chimney, water-tower etc. Any vehicle entry that has more than basic groundwork will be defined as a Vignette (see Rule 19, below), and will be transferred to the appropriate Category for judging there. Any model entered into an AFV category that is displayed upon a base, permanently or temporarily, may have no more than two (2) figures in total and the figure(s) must be a crew member; only one (1) figure may be affixed to the base off the vehicle; a second figure must be affixed to or within the vehicle model. If there are more than two figures total, the entry will be defined as a Vignette, and will be transferred to the appropriate Category for judging there.

 

According to what you said, the head judge (Dave Khan) was correct to move them to 800s for judging. IPMS has a long history of guys trying to bend the rules and push the envelope to give their entry a perceived edge over the competition, with armor guys doing things to their bases while trying to stay out of the 800 categories. The push-back against this trend started about a decade ago and was codified a few years ago and is being enforced now, apparently. I agree with Nick & Dave (and Mr. Kahn) that they should have read the rules.

Hopefully, nobody caused a ruckus when the discovered their models had been moved and located them in the 800s 

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Two categories, Master Class and a regular participant class. Master class you win your way in by placing at a regional or club contest.  Have first, second and third for Masters, and GSB for the rest.

Edited by sharkinman44

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3 hours ago, sharkinman44 said:

Two categories, Master Class and a regular participant class. Master class you win your way in by placing at a regional or club contest.  Have first, second and third for Masters, and GSB for the rest.

Too complicated. 

Dak

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45 minutes ago, Dakimbrell said:

Too complicated. 

Dak

Well, give everyone an award and all the best modelers will stay home.

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Trying to keep track of those who win a regionals and using that as a qualification for entering an element at the National level is too complicated and time consuming. 

Better to simply let the entrants choose the level they are comfortable with: I.E. novice, advanced, and master. Use the same number of awards as now, apportioning them based on the number of entries.

Model building is an art and conyest judging is is often based on a very tiny margin.

Dak

 

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After wading thru all the previous comments, I figure it's about time I threw in my five cents worth.  If it isn't worth that much, I'll accept change!

Over the decades I've entered a lot of local contests, won everything from first to third and have the ribbons to prove it.  Nationals or major Regional?  Nope, for the simple reason that most of my building has been for clients or commissioned articles.  But thru it all, every contest has been the 1-2-3 system and I believe it needs to stay that way...at least for the Nationals.  Local and Regional contests can experiment however they want.  So why do I think this?  Here's why:

When the 1-2-3 system is used...no matter how difficult it is to determine the standing...there IS a winner who is demonstrably at that moment the best entry in that category.  Think about it.  In horse racing, the same system is used and you have a clear winner, even if it is a photo finish.  Same applies to the Olympics and most other competitions you can think of.  Someone wins, someone loses.  That's life.

Now I'll grant you that there are circumstances when multiple awards can and should be handed out.  But the IPMS/USA Nationals in not one of them.  Like it or not, the Nationals is a head-to-head, best of the best competition that brings together some of the best modelers in the world and that's the way it should stay as it is.  I've never entered a Nationals contest, probably never will and probably wouldn't win if I did.  That doesn't mean I'm not a good modelbuilder.  All that means is that I simply don't have the time to deal with clients and work on my next Modelbuilding Guides or CD-ROMs.  And if I did enter and didn't win, I wouldn't whine or cry about it.  That's just the way the cookie crumbles.  If I wanted to enter the next National, I'd learn from the one I didn't win at and work to produce something that would have a better chance.

Do I get change back from my five cents or not?

Richard Marmo

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I favor awards which do not rank the models. Frankly, in most cases, at a National, the winning models are so close it comes down to some extremely picky points to choose one over another. 

By using a non-ranking award and allotting them based on number of entries, you could give more awards in the heavy categories and avoid the headache of picking the one with the absolute least mistakes.

I also favor putting everyone’s name in plain sight. The judges have to look to avoid sweeps, so the anonymous things is pretty much a waste of time.

Dak

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10 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

Trying to keep track of those who win a regionals and using that as a qualification for entering an element at the National level is too complicated and time consuming. 

Better to simply let the entrants choose the level they are comfortable with: I.E. novice, advanced, and master. Use the same number of awards as now, apportioning them based on the number of entries.

Model building is an art and conyest judging is is often based on a very tiny margin.

Dak

 

. If it were divided on skill level there would have to be criteria to be followed. I think I suck, yet a lot of my friends think I build excellent models. I would never enter expert, but there are some who think I am. So I dont' see how that makes anyone happy in the end or how it can be any more fair than the current judging.  C'mon, you know some guys who really want to win will just enter down below their skill level.

Edited by sharkinman44

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Many, like myself, have enough ego that we would enter in the master division for the prestige. 

I have no doubt there would be some who would try for the easy win. But does it really matter? With no sweeps, they can only win one award in one category and in large categories many could win. 

Additionally, the judges can retain the ability to move models if they think they would be competitive in advanced or master.

At least the novice doesn’t get thrown in the deep end unless they want to go there.

At this year’s event there were 3112 entries. Out of that we had to pick less than 600 winners. Some categories could easily have produced a dozen winners.

Dak

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" C'mon, you know some guys who really want to win will just enter down below their skill level. "

Obviously, some sort of record would need to kept, but it would be simple to do.  I.e. once one has placed "first" a set number of times at each level, a mandatory upgrade to the next level would be required until they reached the master level.  It would be easy to police as judges and modelers are a close group.  Someone will eventually expose anyone violating the rule.

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6 minutes ago, Rusty White said:

" C'mon, you know some guys who really want to win will just enter down below their skill level. "

Obviously, some sort of record would need to kept, but it would be simple to do.  I.e. once one has placed "first" a set number of times at each level, a mandatory upgrade to the next level would be required until they reached the master level.  It would be easy to police as judges and modelers are a close group.  Someone will eventually expose anyone violating the rule.

SO I know that when this thread was started it stated nothing was imminent, however that was 6 months and one national contest ago. Does this have a chance of happening before Texas?

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42 minutes ago, sharkinman44 said:

Does this have a chance of happening before Texas?

No. Any changes if any would be years down the road. Currently, the GSB system has not been used on a contest the size of an IPMS National. There are many logistical problems to work out.

Dak

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