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Dakimbrell

Haters group

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Here in central Oklahoma, there is a group called the Alternative Modelers Society of Oklahoma.....AMSO.... and they HATE IPMS. They have been around about fifteen years or so and feel:

  • IPMS puts too much emphasis on craftsmanship. (Apparently, filling seams is over rated.)
  • IPMS ignores/hates creative models.
  • It's unfair for them to compete with people who can afford better kits. ( Some will never buy a Tamiya kit, but will spend a hundred bucks at the flea market buying old Heller kits.)

Two of the members were part of the local IPMS groups....OHMS and Metro....but left because they felt since they couldn't afford to go to the Nationals, the club should not sponsor a trophy package. Having talked to a few of them over the years, it is clear they know virtually nothing about IPMS.

I just wondered if anyone has encountered other groups like that around the country.

Dak

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Sure....IPMS has a long history and some of it involves alienating model builders. Some of the criticism has been rightly earned, at least in THEIR eyes. Like the saying goes...."haters gonna hate"....

I've been a member for over 40yrs now. I've seen a number of "scandals" within IPMS. I've seen a good number of the membership who are TOO serious about this hobby. This can be a real problem when they demand that everyone else in their club be as serious as themselves, while many of the members simply want it to be a relaxing hobby. We have a reputation of being "rivet counters" and "color nazis" who live to beat others down in a contest. While that's on the harsh side, there's a kernel of truth in it that's hard to live down.

The funny thing is, as you mentioned, MOST of those who espouse those views are not IPMS members, know little to nothing about IPMS, and have NEVER been IPMS members. They simply repeat the grousing they've heard third hand from people who supposedly heard it from someone who's brother-in-law didn't like IPMS.

If you actually pin down an "x-member" who didn't like IPMS and left us you'll usually find a much more concrete reason that they left. Most often, it's that they felt out of place because most people didn't build what THEY built, so they didn't "fit in". A correlation to that is the "they didn't appreciate what I built", meaning they either failed to get the praise they hoped for, or they couldn't understand why a group of people with their OWN interests aren't interested in what they themselves were interested in. Occasionally it'll be because "a club was offensive" and criticized their modeling....which usually means ONE person in that club (and every club seems to have one...) was less than tactful when asked what he thought about someone's labor of love.

As you alluded to, there's a laundry list of reasons to hate IPMS. However, most of them are somewhat out dated, and the majority of them are people expressing sour grapes about IPMS not being what they expected or hoped it would be for them.

What they always fail to mention about IPMS is that it's just about the only modeling club that tries to welcome EVERYONE, no matter what they like to build. Sure, most of us are military builders and the majority of us build aircraft and armor. But, unlike the figure clubs, auto clubs and AMPS, we welcome those who build what we DO NOT build ourselves. The Journal, although totally dependent on voluntary contributions, bends over backwards to SERVE those "others" with articles (and rightly so). Every successful IPMS club that I'm aware of makes a point to make everyone feel welcome, while also being sure that they understand the dynamics of the club they're joining so that there's no illusions.

In closing, all I can say is that modelers are a weird clique. We're generally loners who don't need a club or interaction to enjoy our hobby. There's very few (of the millions who actually buy and build models) who venture out and try to associate with others. Of those, too many will find that their attempts to combine "clubbing" with model building doesn't make it more fun. Those that DO like it will probably be okay with IPMS. Those who don't will be very likely to end up hating us....

 

GIL :cool:

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Lousy modelers need an organization to help them rationalize their lousy results! 

l

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Some people swear by the Masons, others swear at them. Some love the Odd Fellows, others join the Moose Lodge. Everyone'e entitled to their opinion and will no doubt express it if asked. It will be rational and well thought out to them, no matter if it's based in reality or not. If you encounter someone who has had a personal bad experience with IPMS, invite them to your club meeting and make sure they are welcomed and engaged. Not just once, but several times. After that, if they still don't "fit in", it's up to them. 

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As we use to say, "Different strokes for different folks".  Here in San Diego we have two different IPMS clubs.  The meetings couldn't be more different.  One rigidly follows Robert's rules of order.  The meetings follow a very tight format that is known in advance.  Nothing out of place. conversation during the meeting is very controlled.  The other is much looser.  People are allowed to ask questions at will and the meeting can wander.  It is all very informal.  We have a few members that attend both clubs but only a few.  Most don't.  However, between the two, most can find a club that suits them.  It is all very individual.  

As to the "Haters" club, encourage them to join IPMS as a separate club.  That is how we came to have two clubs.  The main advantage to us, is that we put on joint contests.  Each judges there own area of expertise, so that reduces the arguments about judging.  There is no requirement that an "IPMS" local contest adhere to the strict letter of the National rules. 

Edited by PeteJ

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As far as I have been able to determine, none of this AMSO group has ever been a member of IPMS. And yes, several of them are poor builders who make no effort to improve. One guy came to our OHMS meeting for a while and kept wanting to trade stuff. He literally offered crap and wanted better stuff. One night he followed me all the way to my car offering a bag of worthless yellowed decals for a DML Panzer II. I finally had to tell him...rudely... he had nothing I wanted. That's when he quit coming to our meeting.

We have two IPMS chapters in OKC and one in Tulsa. The AMSO group could never afford the charter fee. They are a pretty sad group. I was mainly wondering if anyone has run into other similar groups.

Dak

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This type of attitude is pretty common...  it runs along the lines of "To justify what I like, I have to hate/insult/denigrate what you like."  As an example, "I like Star Wars, but Star Trek sucks." and by implication, so do you.  

This is pretty difficult to counteract as trying to address it head on only solidifies their opinions.  The thing to do (and I may not get this quite right) is to find out the what, where, why and how the other person likes Star Wars, without getting sidetracked into anything involving Star Trek.  If they try to go negative, steer it back towards their positive feelings/thoughts about Star Wars. Do not at anytime talk about your opinions of either Star Trek or Star Wars. Only focus on them and their thoughts and feelings.  If they persist in going negative, you'll probably get no where and will need to move on. But if you can get them to open up and get some actual, positive reasons for liking Star Wars, at some point you may be able to say, "Oh I see why you like it.  Those are many of the very same reasons I like Star Trek, but I can appreciate that Star Wars is something you really seem to enjoy."  Let them be happy about enjoying Star Wars on its own and realize that fact.  Perhaps then they'd understand your appreciation of Star Trek.

Now this is not an easy thing to do - and the fact that I even wrote this out would confuse the heck out of some of my friends, but so be it...

Anyway.... I may add on to this later, but I need some sleep.

Eric

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On 11/29/2018 at 10:34 PM, Nick Filippone said:

Lousy modelers need an organization to help them rationalize their lousy results! 

l

And comments like this just reinforce their opinions. To each there own. I know plenty of modelers who think accuracy is overated and some who don't

 

Dave

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This AMSO group doesn't care for basic craftsmanship. Seams, burrs, glue spots and misaligned parts abound on many of their models. Accuracy...technical or historic... is totally unimportant for most of them. Several have expressed the opinion awards should be based on imagination and creativity, rather than basic skills. This is one of the reasons they get upset with IPMS.

While I try to make my models accurate, I have long ago quit worrying about strict accuracy it any more than I worry about shade of color. There are a lot of variables. (For example, I have a picture of a German soldier wearing a plaid shirt in the field.)

FYI, I was not looking for advice on how to deal with them, but whether curious if others have encountered such "heretics". Whether there were more around the country, or just some aberration here in Oklahoma. Personally, I think there is something in the water, here that makes them crazy. LOL

Dak

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Haters gonna hate. Hyperscale is a prime example. Most of the anti-IPMS comments come from non-members.

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3 hours ago, dmorrissette said:

And comments like this just reinforce their opinions. To each there own. I know plenty of modelers who think accuracy is overated and some who don't

 

Dave

I agree Dave.  We used to have a modeler in our group (he passed away) who built models that couldn't "compete" in a contest, but he didn't care.  Seams not or poorly filled, less than perfect paint finish, decals, etc.  He built models "his" way and enjoyed the hobby as much as anyone in the club and we welcomed his contributions as much as anyone else's.

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It has been a while since I have seen a thread this judgmental!  Everyone builds for their own reasons and nobody shares your exact reasons for building.  I will repeat that, nobody shares your exact reasons for building.  There is a psychological theory that identifies this.  It is called the illusion of central position.  It says that we all believe that we are normal and everyone has the same experiences and beliefs as ours.  This is the illusion or delusion if you will.  Each of us builds to satisfy something internal and none of us is trying to satisfy the same thing.

  The "haters" group you mention are probably right-brained people.  More artistic and creative.  They enjoy creating something that doesn't exist.  They don't care that it wouldn't work in the real world, only that it is from their imagination.  A large portion of IPMS tend to be more right brained.  More technical and analytic. They want things to be orderly and precise.  Just look at IPMS judging criteria.  The judging criteria are all about building technical skill with not the slightest nod to originality or pure creativity.  It is quite rare in IPMS for a totally creative model to win except in a specific class.  This has been a complaint from automotive builders for years.  Artistry is not considered.

  I do not say any of this to be critical, only as an observation for the divide that separates us. To paraphrase, we are a people divided by a common hobby. Neither side is "right" for anyone other than themselves.  Recognize is and get along. Try to force your opinions on others and suffer.

 

 

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PeteJ,

I started this thread not as criticism, but as curiosity if others have encountered such groups. In my description of the AMSO group, I have very charitable of them. They are not really that creative, but merely use it as a an excuse to justify poor craftsmanship. I realize everyone builds models for their own reasons and we have several in both the local IPMS chapters who only build for themselves. They have no interests in contests, nor do they try to build at a high competitive level. I like them and have great respect for them for they accept both complements and suggestions with good grace. You can be extremely creative and be a good craftsman, I have seen that constantly at the Nationals.

The man I described in the earlier post hardly ever built a model, but from day one was constantly pestering people to trade stuff with him. And he kept at it until I told him to leave me the F alone. This was not a difference in how to build, but about common courtesy. One was posting racist remarks on the internet and another was a drunk constantly stinking of beer.

I would disagree that creativity doesn't win or isn't considered, particularly in the final stages of judging. My experience says those who feel the creativity of their model is over looked, are just trying to rationalize their failure, but it is true different groups see "good craftsmanship" differently.

These two photos from OHMS show both creativity and good craftsmanship, IMO. That's Manta Ray Charles, by the way.

Dak

IMG_2641.JPG

IMG_8253.JPG

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MY experience with IPMS "haters" who criticize the importance we place on craftsmanship is that they are modelers who are sorely lacking in craftsmanship themselves. They cannot win a contest so those who can put too much emphasis on craftsmanship. Building a model without trying to do a good job is like playing golf with no particular concern whether the ball ever gets in the cup.

Since I joined IPMS in 1964, I have had to listen to the likes of AMSO criticize this venerable organization and its 1/2 century endeavour to raise plastic modelling from the low regard in which it was held ( remember when the wood modelers thought that WE were the ones lacking in craftsmanship?) to the level of excellence it now enjoys. I have long since run out of patience with modelers jealous of what IPMS members have achieved individually and collectively through hard work and a demand for excellence to make plastic modelling every bit as sophisticated and respectable as hand carved balsa and basswood modelling. This was always one of our earliest goals. 

Hence, I will eschew any semblance of modelling "political correctness!" I will not take back what I said above nor will I apologize for it. As long as such people as AMSO members keep their comments to themselves, I will forbear to criticize them. But once they start the childish nonsense such as was reported above, then they better be prepared to knock the chip off my shoulder that I unashamedly wear for IPMS. Nick Filippone, IPMS #969 and proud enough of it to stick up for it!

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15 hours ago, Dakimbrell said:

PeteJ,

I started this thread not as criticism, but as curiosity if others have encountered such groups. In my description of the AMSO group, I have very charitable of them. They are not really that creative, but merely use it as a an excuse to justify poor craftsmanship. I realize everyone builds models for their own reasons and we have several in both the local IPMS chapters who only build for themselves. They have no interests in contests, nor do they try to build at a high competitive level. I like them and have great respect for them for they accept both complements and suggestions with good grace. You can be extremely creative and be a good craftsman, I have seen that constantly at the Nationals.

The man I described in the earlier post hardly ever built a model, but from day one was constantly pestering people to trade stuff with him. And he kept at it until I told him to leave me the F alone. This was not a difference in how to build, but about common courtesy. One was posting racist remarks on the internet and another was a drunk constantly stinking of beer.

I would disagree that creativity doesn't win or isn't considered, particularly in the final stages of judging. My experience says those who feel the creativity of their model is over looked, are just trying to rationalize their failure, but it is true different groups see "good craftsmanship" differently.

These two photos from OHMS show both creativity and good craftsmanship, IMO. That's Manta Ray Charles, by the way.

Dak

IMG_2641.JPG

IMG_8253.JPG

David, I didn't say there was no creativity.  I only pointed out that the judging rules deal exclusively with quality of build.  There is nothing in the rule about creativity.  The closest they come is in judging the "story" that dioramas tell.  Nothing else alludes to the highly creative building.  Yes there is plenty of creativity.  I have walked the aisle  of Nat's and seen plenty of creative displays and even a few highly original models but I have never seen one win best for show with the possible exception of the motorcycle a couple of years ago.  Most BOS winners are highly technical builds.  I don't believe that I have ever seen a Diorama win.  IPMS stresses quality of build over all else.  I am not saying that is bad, only a fact.  

As to the guy from AMSO who annoyed you so much, every club that I have been a member of seems to have one of those, IPMS or other.  The guy that is an outlier.  The guy in desperate need of validation.  The fact that he is a member of AMSO or any other organization is irrelevant.  Characterizing another group based on one member is hardly appropriate.  I am a member of two groups.  One IPMS and one not.  Both have people I would prefer to avoid, but I still like and go to meetings.  I don't judge others by the company they keep.  

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PeteJ,

How does one judge creativity? How does one quantify creativity? Particularly when judging a real subject? Are you saying a gaping seam down the fuselage should be ignored in favor of a more "creative" work?  (This is exactly what the AMSO people believe.) How is a stand alone 1/48th BOB Spitfire to be judged on creativity? Walking those same rows of contest tables, I see a lot of creativity in subject matter, display, level of detail, particularly the scratch and scifi categories. Is not choosing a highly technical subject and building it creative? I certainly think so.

You are wrong that it doesn't come into play in the Judging. In the final stages, once you have checked all the  basic stuff, it comes down to what the judges like and creativity certainly comes into play. At least with the teams I have worked with, over the years. One model (not a diorama) did very well because of a scale banana peel on the model. I certainly found it creative twist, but the decision was founded on solid craftmanship.

Additionally, I am not 'judging" the AMSO group solely on one person. I've  met many, attended a few of their meetings, and heard them actually slander my club OHMS, IPMS Metro, and IPMS as a whole.. In one case, they took a copy of the OHMS newsletter (put out as promotion) and wrote nasty comments in it. Rusty White can back up much of what I have said. As I wrote, I was merely wondering if other groups around the country have encountered similar anti-IPMS groups. I was not trying to offer judgement of their people or philosophy, only whether other such groups exist.

On a personal note, I am in basic agreement with Nick.

Dak

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Some food for thought. IPMS has about 4000 members down from a high of 7000 about 20 years ago. The general modeling population of US alone, based on numbers from Revell is about 50-60,000. So while we may talk about the rules and craftsmanship, we are a minority of the model builders in the US. If we want to grow, we need all parts- craftsman and fun builders.

For me, I have seen people take out micrometers and measure the two wingtips of a plane and disqualify based on the fact they are a millimeter off. That does no one any good. In either case, IPMS supports all of it. 220 plus clubs with IPMS members and many not. Contests open to everyone except the Nats. It is all good

Dave

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Well off topic, I see. LOL

I like the IPMS methodology for contest judging. I done the AMPS thing and some others, but in the end, I think the IPMS system works the best. All those which try to quantify judging are just wasting time. They do not provide any better results, nor do they provide for a collective opinion. I do wish we could do more than the three awards in one category (a sort of BSG system.). I also, wish judges had the option of only giving a third place, in some cases. I grok why we don't do these things, but I can still wish. I believe the give and take discussion of the odd number judging team works the best. The IPMS judging rules work well because they are things you can clearly point to as a defect. The trick is knowing it IS a defect and not some variation or modification which turns out to be accurate. Sometimes ALL the winners have major  visible flaws.

The more I have learned, the more I have to understand that "accuracy" tends to be an illusion for 99% of the models we see at contests. Of course, there are hard facts...F-4 Phantoms were not used by the Germans at the battle of El Alamein, in 1942...... that sort of thing. But I have seen numerous experts run afoul of reality. In 1982, in St. Louis, a well known modeler was criticizing the roadwheels on a friends M-60 tank. That style was "never" used on that tank. Unfortunately for him, the owner of the real tank...a captain in the ONG...was there to explain those were the type used on his tank, the subject of the model.

Too often, the entrant is his own worst enemy. They show nothing in the comments box or provide any information about some unusual point. For example, is the crudely hand painted insignia deliberate, or poor painting?

Dak

 

Edited by Dakimbrell

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