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Roktman

Judging Question

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I agree that moving sometimes causes problems. I do wish that judges would ask first before making an arbitrary decision that affects the modeler. I also understand how difficult that can be with a100+ contestants wandering all over the place.

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Now days, I withdraw the model if they move it. 

Dak

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Good judges do not make “ arbitrary decisions.” They even-handedly apply the rules to the best of their ability in order to be fair to everyone. One could hardly expect an unbiased opinion that might affect his or her chances of winning to come from the modeler him or herself! We might as well start asking modelers to judge their own work. Nick Filippone, Senior National Judge

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I generally agree, Nick. However, I’ve seen a couple things in recent years that left me puzzled. If I disagree with the move, I just withdraw my model. No arguments.

Dak

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Judges are damned if they do and damned if they don't! There will always be Miffed Modeller Pot  Hunters out there who get upset if their models do not win. Why they want to get so upset by someone else's opinion about their model (and that is basically what a judges decision is, an opinion), I really do not know. Whether models  win or not is not live changing at the end of the day! I enjoy entering my models into competitions. I win a few and and lose a few more. Do I lose any sleep over it? No! Enjoy your hobby. That is what it is! Naturally we all strive to be better modellers, but we should never take ourselves too seriously where mode!ling is concerned!

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Everyone likes validation from their peers. Why do people get upset when their favorite sports team loses? Some even get so angry they threaten coaches and players. Yet, that is often considered "normal".

It's not a hobby for me; it's a way of life. I have several hobbies, but building models is not one of them. I do not do it to relax, but as an art form and I work at it almost everyday in the same way a musician practices or an athlete works out. I don't get grossly upset if my model doesn't win if it is in a category with lots of good work, but there has been more than one case that left me going "huh?".

Still, I read the rules and place my model in the category where I think it has the best chance of winning. If the Judges move it.....splitting is not moving.....I just take it off the table. The last time I let that hat happen was in 2011 when they moved a figure diorama to a vehicle diorama category.

Dak

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Oddly......many times the judges will move a model thinking they are doing the builder a "favor". This most often happens when a model is in a gray area of definition;  like a 1/32 biplane, that's a "primarily rigged a/c" but also a "1/32 prop". Some judges will move it to the "less" populated category thinking: "it fits in there too and has better odds at winning with less models to compete against".  A figure diorama with a vehicle or two on the base might just be moved to the vehicle diorama category for that reason.....

I've never known a head judge, or a judge tasked with making sure things are in the "right" category to be capricious or arbitrary. They take that job very seriously. The people doing it generally have WAY more contest experience than the builders plopping stuff down on the tables (that's how they get the job of head judge/and or model mover; experience!). Also, in almost all cases, those moving models DO try to get the attention of the builder to notify them, or even (when time allows) to ask THEM to move it. In my many years of experience, the guys wandering around in the rooms pay little to no attention to announcements!

Don't get me wrong...judges can make mistakes. The new rules for what turns a "display on a base" into a "vignette" or "diorama" has really muddied up the waters. Builders aren't always sure anymore, and judges are still learning EXACTLY how strict or lenient their head judge is about them. But it's usually the builder who thinks he's entering one thing, but has left it open to be seen and interpreted as something else.

Or, you can do what we've done at JAXCON: got to GSB! There are NO categories, only Display Zones. So as long as an airplane or a car is among the other airplanes or cars, it's in the right place!  :smiley2:  And even if it's not....as long as the judges see it and judge it, no harm/no foul!

 

GIL :cool:

Edited by ghodges

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Like I say, if they move it, I simply withdraw it. I got tired of the rationalization about why something should be moved. It's just easier and causes less headache.

Actually, I disagree with the idea judges have more experience than the entrants. I think it is about even. Lots of contest goers ….like me... have been doing it for decades.

Dak

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IPMS UK Telford Scale Modelworld Show has a different approach. If models entered fail to comply with the rules they are simply disqualified. Too many models to be judged on the Saturday, and the comps area has to be 're opened by a certain time to allow the entry paying general public as well as members to look around what is competing.

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Disqualifying models at an American contest is what sends mobs into the halls with torches and pitchforks while the judges run like hunted animals. 😝 

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The British are a much more disciplined people than we are. We are a nation of common louts and nobody is going to tell us what to do, by God! Nick Filippone

 

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Nick,

I realize your post was tongue-in-cheek, but statement's like that are easily misunderstood and lead to flaming.  I ask everyone to review the forum rules and think carefully before you post.  Quick action will be taken for violators.

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But was it tongue in cheek? What rule did I violate, please? I am curious. I used no bad language. I singled no one individual out for insult. I did not use all capital letters or coloured type. So what rule has been violated? Thank you.Regards, Nick

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They do seem overly dramatic. 

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5 hours ago, Nick Filippone said:

But was it tongue in cheek? What rule did I violate, please? I am curious. I used no bad language. I singled no one individual out for insult. I did not use all capital letters or coloured type. So what rule has been violated? Thank you.Regards, Nick

"Use of objectionable language or images. This means no pornographic, political, racial, or religious postings on the forum. Do not use profanity, obscenity, vulgarity, or swearing -- including thinly-disguised attempts to defeat the word filters by using asterisks or other characters to replace letters. Language used on NETWORK, prime time television should be your guide when posting on the forum."

No further warnings will be issued.

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Actually, many things said on prime time tv would be band here. 

 

Dak

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The disqualification rules at Telford are partly due to the sheer numbers of models entered and the logistic of having to get the comps area back open to the general public by a certain time. Would someone enlighten me about the US Nats. Is it a members only thing? If so I guess the judges are not under so much of a time constraint to get the area open again, and therefore have the opportunity to relocate models if necessary. I can understand modellers in some cases not being happy to have their models moved. I had a model that I was going to enter at Telford one year that I knew might be a bit borderline as far as classification was concerned after I had scrutinised the rules. A quick check with the comps Secretary by email beforehand clarified where to enter my model.

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Yes, I check before hand if I think there is a question. But every now and then something gets moved for what is and arbitrary reason. In the past, I tried to find out why, and got double talk.

Dak

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Rusty, With all due respect, I guess you will have to be more explicit about which part of my post violated those rules. I am being straight now. What part lacks a ‘Nihil Obstat?” Nick

 

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Guys, guys, please. Let's not get over sensitive, otherwise we will end up with the moderator locking this thread. That would be a pity as the subject matter is making for an interesting discussion.

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Noel: to answer your question, the IPMS Nats is judged on Friday evenings starting about 7pm. Thus, they have no time constraints on getting done for the public since the room is not due to open until the next morning. There have been times when the judges weren't done til after midnight and the final Grand Award winner wasn't picked until close to 2am, but that's rare now. Generally, they're all done by midnight. The ONLY time constraint I'm aware of is occasionally the VENUE will have a "lights out" policy for the entire convention center of midnight, and THAT does cause some headaches; but as mentioned it is VERY rare.

By the way, many years ago judging was on Saturday morning and there was a "rush" to get done so that the people would have enough viewing time on Saturday afternoon. That's why judging was moved to Friday night, and it's worked very well; though it completely eliminates the ability for anyone to come and enter anything on Saturday.

And Rusty, it IS possible to be overly zealous as a moderator. It's one thing if one member insults another directly by labeling them as deceitful, even if done with flowery language. But, making a point, even with a bit of sarcasm, is not entirely out of place. It's tougher to discern intent on a forum because there's no voice inflection, but I think a moderator can simply question a statement before accusing or warning someone about it. Stepping in TOO often can kill an ability to have a flowing dialog, which is the purpose of a forum like this!

 

GIL :cool:

Edited by ghodges
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What would be a pity would be to discover that we have all followed the Forum rules, but are threatened with being shut down because one person with the authority to do so, locks the thread for reasons the rest of us do not understand and, apparently, are not to be made privy to! Nick P.S. And what the heck is “flaming” anyway? 

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Yes, they seem overly sensitive to me. Particularly sense the only ones posting areclearly adults and not upset with the discussion.

Dak

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