Efforts toward a west coast Nats

[Dick Montgomery]

Mark,

Can you expand on the comment you made in a previous post? You said, "

Another point to consider: I've heard several AMPS members got the impression that the board making the decision could care less if the Nationals was ever awarded to a West Coast city. This is this incorrect, then lets see money where mouths are; everyone knows talk is cheap."

 

I want to make sure that I interpret your comment properly.

 

 

[Ron Bell]

Gentlemen,

Here's our record of bids since 2009.

 

Since 2009, we've had western bids from:

 

San Jose ('12), Loveland ('13), Sacramento ('09), Phoenix ('10 & '17) and Portland ('09 & '10)

 

We accepted Loveland ('13) and Phoenix ('10).

 

In '09 as we had not gotten a bid from what should have been the correct region in the rotation, we had opened bidding to the entire country. However, we did finally get a good bid from a host in the correct rotation, so we accepted that rather than the bids from the western chapters (Portland and Sacramento).

 

In one case, 2010, two western clubs were bidding against each other, so one had to "lose".

 

This year we gave it to Omaha, a central location.

[Eric Aitala]

A map of the current IPMS clubs... (or pretty recent) for reference.

 

 

Eric

[Mark Aldrich]

Duke,

AMPS members have no room to complain about awarding Nationals to East Coast Clubs. Name one AMPS that was ever hosted on the West Coast in the last 10 years? Not trying to get off subject but that one just jerked my knee.

[Nick Filippone]

I would be willing to bet "dollars to doughnuts," as me sainted Irish Mother would say, that if you superimposed a map of where, historically, the Nationals have been held over the past 40+ years, you would find a simple truth: the more chapters in a particular part of the country, the greater the chance of one of them submitting a bid and, therefore, the National ending up there! Duh! Nick Filippone

[dmorrissette]

Nick:

 

Correct. If you take Texas and East, there are ~178 IPMS chapters. If you take regions 7, 8, 9 and 10 which is west of Texas, there are 44. It is a 4 to 1 ration of Midwest/Eastern clubs to Western and that . There is no favoritism, just a numbers issue.

 

Dave

[PeteJ]

A map of the current IPMS clubs... (or pretty recent) for reference.

 

Screen Shot 2015-08-11 at 3.37.54 PM.png

 

Eric

Eric, this is interesting but I would find a map of IPMS member density more valuable. There have to be some very small clubs out there even in major population centers like our. I don't think our total membership is more that 30 with 15 as average attendance.

[Eric Aitala]

I lost the post that was going to go with the image, but I was trying to point out that the distribution of the clubs west of Texas follows the major cities where in the East things are more 'evenly' spread out. I would assume that the clubs in the West have more members per club than in the East.

 

E

 

 

 

A map of the current IPMS clubs... (or pretty recent) for reference.

Screen Shot 2015-08-11 at 3.37.54 PM.png

Eric

Eric, this is interesting but I would find a map of IPMS member density more valuable. There have to be some very small clubs out there even in major population centers like our. I don't think our total membership is more that 30 with 15 as average attendance.

 

[ralph4hand]

This is a Membership Map I did on a CalComp Plotter at work in 1969, and published in the Quarterly Memo prior to the 1970 Convention in Wichita, KA.

 

The map shows membership, by number of members in each concentrated area of the US. I expect the distribution hasn't changed a great deal since then.

 

 

Ulps - can't seem to get the I'mage inserted here???

I will be happy to send it to anyone interested as a regular e-mail attachment.

My e-mail: ralf7@verizon.net

[Dick Montgomery]

So, it appears with the information and map presented to this point that there is no concerted effort on the part of the EB, or others, to prevent a West Coast Bid. In fact, the West Coast does have chapters that have submitted a bid (Thank You!...Please do it again!).

 

A conclusion that can be drawn from this information is that West Coast Chapters can submit bids and if the numbers are good they stand an equal chance of receiving the bid.

[ralph4hand]

The below URL is the IPMS/USA Membership Map I made on a CalComp Plotter in 1969, and published in the Quarterly Memo wrap=around. I expect the membership is approximately the same today.

 

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/HappyRalph/IPMS_Membership_Map_1968.jpg

 

I got it to PhotoBucket - Now to figure out how to get it on the Forum?

[Moose135]

On the Photobucket page, under the "Share Links" section on the right, click on the "Direct" box - the actual URL, not the title. That will copy the URL of the image (the "filename.jpg" name) and once you come back to the forum, either paste the URL between Image tags or simply click on the Image icon and paste the url in the box.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Moose135

[ralph4hand]

John,

 

Thank You very much for both your concise instructions and posting the Membership Map.

 

I'll save your instructions thill next time.

[Mark Deliduka]

Mark,

Can you expand on the comment you made in a previous post? You said, "

Another point to consider: I've heard several AMPS members got the impression that the board making the decision could care less if the Nationals was ever awarded to a West Coast city. This is this incorrect, then lets see money where mouths are; everyone knows talk is cheap."

 

I want to make sure that I interpret your comment properly.

 

 

 

 

The impression to these members was that the board didn't seem to care about ever scheduling a Nationals in a West Coast city as the attitude seemed to be that the west coast was too expensive and difficult for the majority of the members to get to. I can see the perception here myself, and yet in reading many of these responses; I don't agree with this premise. Still, I would think that if all modelers in IPMS USA were equally important to this organization, then Phoenix should have gotten the nod and Omaha gotten it in 2018. Frankly, I've resigned myself to not ever attending a Nationals again unless some massive miracle occurs; I have cancer and may not be around when the next West Coast Nationals is awarded. I shall continue however, to suppose and promote my local club; and every other club here in SoCal by attending every show and contest I can get to.

 

Mark, your are correct about the AMPS organization in general; since they've never had a West Coast show, they have no dog in this fight. I already knew when joining AMPS that I'm never going to attend an AMPS National since they won't ever have a show out here in my lifetime. However, many AMPS members are also IPMS members who come to and support our Nationals here and in the context of being IPMS members, I think they do individually have an interest in this situation.

 

My apologies to you Mark for the comment that 'jerked your knee', no offense was intended.

[66Foxtrot]

The below URL is the IPMS/USA Membership Map I made on a CalComp Plotter in 1969. I expect the membership is approximately the same today.

 

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/HappyRalph/IPMS_Membership_Map_1968.jpg

 

 

 

The distribution map is 46 years old. I respectfully disagree.

[Dick Montgomery]

Mark,

First, very sorry to hear about your health issues. I'm sure that everyone wishes you the best of wishes and thoughts, and that you will, indeed, see a West Coast Nats.

 

Thank you for your reply to my request for an expanded explanation. In that expanded version you said, "The impression to these members was that the board didn't seem to care about ever scheduling a Nationals in a West Coast city as the attitude seemed to be that the west coast was too expensive and difficult for the majority of the members to get to."

 

I can tell you that during my time on the EB there was no such attitude presented by any EB officer toward a bidder.

 

Perhaps there is a different explanation, that being that when a decision doesn't meet one's expectations then a tendency would be to blame the decision makers for being biased or unfair. I submit that this is the most probable explanation for the attitude that you describe in your post.

 

I would point out that another statement in your reply appears to contain a bias....and that statement is, "Still, I would think that if all modelers in IPMS USA were equally important to this organization, then Phoenix should have gotten the nod and Omaha gotten it in 2018" It appears that you are advocating that the bid should have gone to Phoenix even though Omaha had the better bid. Your statement shows a bias for those on the West Coast. Whether a bias favors East or West, it is still a bias, and as such, does not have a place in the decision-making process. I suggest that the better bid should always win out regardless of what part of the country it comes from. It is up to those presenting a bid to put forward a bid that they think is competitive and reasonable. It is up to the EBoard to select one bid as being superior. Not everyone will be pleased and that's the nature of the process.

[ralph4hand]

James,

 

Just my opinion and wish I had the resources to update it. I offer it to serve at least as a rough approximation illustrating our:

1. Wide distribution of member clusters

2, Convention location consideration obstacles and/or opportunities.

 

Such maps, even outdated, can be helpful.

[philp]

Ok, all, I seem to have gotten a little confused (Ralph told me that happens as I get older).

 

When did we move away from the area rotation of the Nats?

 

My understanding was that bids were requested from the section (East, Central, West) on a rotating basis so that a Nats would almost always be in an area that people would be able to make it at least once every 3 years.

A bid was only requested from other chapters if no bids were forthcoming from the current region.

 

Quick check of my pins shows:

2010 - Phoenix - West

2011 - Omaha - Central

2012 - Orlando - East

2013 - Loveland - West (I know but Region 10 is considered West)

2014 - Hampton - East

2015 - Columbus - Central (seems more east but)

2016 - Columbia - East

2017 - Omaha - Central

 

Think Mark is correct here. As Phoenix was the only western region chapter to bid, should have got the nod. If no one out west bid than Omaha gets it. But if the rotation has disappeared...

 

Dick said:

" I suggest that the better bid should always win out regardless of what part of the country it comes from. It is up to those presenting a bid to put forward a bid that they think is competitive and reasonable. It is up to the EBoard to select one bid as being superior. Not everyone will be pleased and that's the nature of the process."

 

Now, from what I have been reading in here, a Central or Eastern location will always be able to put in a better bid because they can get lower pricing than someplace out West.

 

I am sure this is not a correct statement as I am sure there are plenty of other factors the EB looks at before awarding a Nationals based on the bid. But maybe that is what everyone needs to see? What are the criteria that makes one bid better than another?

 

Is it cost to members/vendors, cost of the facilities, location, nearness to an international airport, size of facility, possible tour locations, boots on the ground or what? Again I assume all of these are looked at but what is the weight of each in the final decision?

 

I think if this information was made readily available to all it would possibly help clubs as they put their presentation together and might even stop a lot of the "well why did they get it over us" questions that lead to discussions like this.

 

Of course, if the rotation system is no longer in effect then obviously the best bid, based on the above or other criteria, should win.

 

One other point, before the settlement I would have probably only made Phoenix and Loveland. I would not be a Nationals Judge, I would not have made as many friends, seen as many awesome models and had as great a time as I have had at every Nationals I have had the good fortune to attend.

 

OK Dick, I am going back down to work on those late reviews. ;)

[Schmitz]

Phil, the rotation was officially removed a few years ago (if I remember, it required an amendment to the C&BL, and the E-board put on a full court press to get out the vote to approve it). The problem with the rotation was that if no one bid from the designated area (in which case bidding would be opened up to everyone) other chapters would have a limited amount of time to put a bid together.

 

Don

[Schmitz]

Such maps, even outdated, can be helpful.

 

Ralph, I'm sure the general distribution of membership hasn't changed much, but the last 40 years have seen huge population growth in the south-west and west-coast so those areas might have changed a bit. If you just want to see the current population distribution of the US, I like this map:

 

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/ (try turning off the color coding and turning on labels).

 

It is amazing how empty the western half of the country is - Phoenix and Denver are the only real population centers not on the coast (Salt Lake City, Boise and Spokane may be roughty the same size - I'm not sure if there are IPMS chapters in those cities).

 

Don

[ghodges]

Phil, Mark (and all): There' a fallacy that you're perpetuating in your posts: that the Eboard could have awarded Phoenix 2017 AND also awarded Omaha the 2018 bid. That's not so!

 

At this time, all bids brought to the Eboard are for 2yrs out, and ONLY 2yrs out. So, next year (unless they make a change) they will be accepting bids only for the 2018 show.

 

We've been discussing changing the bid process so that it might be possible for a club to come with a more "open" bid, with possible dates for 2 or 3 years out. Much of this depends on the venue a host is trying to lock down, but it may be possible to do this. Then, IF the Eboard got two good bids (like they did this year) they would be able to award more than one host and plan Nats for 2-3 years in advance. There are some other details that have to be considered for this to work, but it may be a way to help more clubs win bids and fewer clubs "lose" to another club.

 

Another fallacy about THIS year's bid is that the Eboards decision was based solely on profit potential. This is just my opinion (not an Eboard member!), but as an attendee at the bid meeting, I saw several other differences between the bids:

1) Omaha has two hotels connected to each other at the convention center with two different price choices; Phoenix only has one (though it's certainly large enough)

2) Omaha has free parking; Phoenix was dependent on city garage parking that would cost attendees daily (like Columbus this year)

3) Omaha had no extra vendor fees, Phoenix had a vendor fee (probably nominal) to be paid to the convention "decorators"

4) Both appeared equal in my eyes as far as possible tours and host experience (I attended both of their past shows)

5) The "bid presentation" by Omaha out shined the one by Phoenix, making a better impression in the room overall

 

I don't know if the Eboard will give us their specific reasons for choosing Omaha, but it IS something I've called for them to do too, if only to alleviate false rumors. Did the large projected profit by Omaha play a significant part in their decision. I have to believe it did. BUT, remember that IPMSUSA just raised both membership dues and recharter fees last year as a result of rising printing and mailing costs, as well as stagnant (if not slightly declining) membership. Under the circumstances I'd have to cut them a lot of slack for the chance to pick up an extra $10-$20,000 in the treasury. That could go a long way towards securing our financial future for the next few years.

 

That said, I have already written suggestions here that IPMSUSA needs to investigate ways to get a Nats back out west, be it in Phoenix or on the coast. I've suggested the possibility of using some of that extra profit to subsidize the higher facility costs of a western show, as well as supporting the idea of centralizing more of the Nats committee jobs so that smaller clubs might be more inclined to bid. Although the "winning" bid should be the best one, at some point the Eboard may need to kick in a little help in order to make a western bid the best one! I believe this will be necessary unless we start getting more bids from out your way, and it is needed in order to keep IPMSUSA from fracturing in the future.

 

GIL

[JClark]

Yes that's why the rotation was done away with. But the unintended consequence is this. You list as an excuse for the elimination that there isn't enough time for someone to bid if no one for the region that was up fails to do so. Well that goes for the whole society and I would say look at this year when NO ONE bid in time. In which case we put a bid in with only 7 weeks to work with. Only to find out , well we all know the rest of the story. Anyways the main point is this. Why "since IPMS did away with the rotation" do acceptable bids get turned down form the western region when the only thing better about another bid is the bottom line. Both bids projected profit, one modest, one outrageous (IMHO). As I said in other threads money will always win, I get that but when you have a chuck of the society ignored when viable bids from the west come in then expect blowback. That's why I say it's always about the bottom line and nothing else. The society was more than willing to shun one part of the country once again for a bigger profit plain and simple.

So if that's the case we need to focus on Omaha every year. Sign multi year deals and have national convention committees to plan this. That's if it is about the bottom line....

 

Jim

[jcorley]

The impression to these members was that the board didn't seem to care about ever scheduling a Nationals in a West Coast city as the attitude seemed to be that the west coast was too expensive and difficult for the majority of the members to get to.

 

Duke, I don;t think any of us "don't care" rather it was an observation based on MY experience as an EB member when I was helping decide the bids. The expense factor is key, and the one time there was a choice between two west coast shows, the numbers showed us which we should choose.

 

 

Phoenix should have gotten the nod and Omaha gotten it in 2018. Frankly, I've resigned myself to not ever attending a Nationals again unless some massive miracle occurs; I have cancer and may not be around when the next West Coast Nationals is awarded.

 

Are we even still on a "rotation"? I honestly don't know anymore. If so, would Omaha count as "west" (it is in the western half of the country) or :central" as it is in the central time zone?

 

Sucks to hear about your cancer!! Praying you come thru with flying colors and minimal side effects from the treatments.

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by jcorley

[jcorley]

I can tell you that during my time on the EB there was no such attitude presented by any EB officer toward a bidder.

 

 

 

Dick and I have famously disagreed about things in the past, but I can vouch for his observation, as it is an opinion I share.

Edited August 13, 2015 by jcorley

[Schmitz]

Jim, I wasn't trying to make an excuse for anything - just explain that there is no rotation any more and why. I wasn't at the bid presentation and don't know any details.

 

For most of us on the east coast, going to Omaha is no easier than going to Phoenix - you pretty much have to fly either way. I've been to Phoenix and Loveland in the last 10 years, but we have relatives in Phoenix so that was a family vacation, and Colorado was just after I had made my kid's last tuition payment and I was feeling rich. I had a great time on both trips, but as I get closer to retirement, I have to think those cross country jaunts are going to get harder for me to justify.

 

I think you're right that west coast bids have a built in disadvantage in competing with east-coast/mid-west bids, just because their costs are going to be higher and their estimated attendance will be lower. I think you guys (and any other clubs in the west who are interested in bidding in the near future) should get together with the new 2nd VP and hash out some guidelines where western cities will have a fair chance to win a bid.

 

Don

Edited August 13, 2015 by Schmitz