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Our problems are not in man power, or committees or any of that other stuff. It's MUCH more basic. We just use too much space for the room nights we provide and the facilities cost more than our rather, shall we say, frugal membership is willing to pay to attend.

If this is the biggest challenge facing the Nats, and I believe Ron is right, may I suggest that one of the goals of the new e-board be to explore alternatives to the typical hotel/convention center venue that we’ve used for the last 30-40 years. This is the "paradigm" shift that Ron mentioned.

What is our plan as we face these increasing costs? Is the leadership and membership okay with the possibility of one day not having a national convention? Better yet, are we ready to brainstorm alternatives? We’ll be quick to identify the challenges that come with any alternative, but are we open-minded to find ways to overcome those challenges?

I think this will be a crucial issue facing the new or a near-term e-board. It's time for a plan.

Steve

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Perhaps you are correct, IPMS/USA should pay them instead (as Ron suggested) - this was an alternative to save the society funds by using "freebies" usually given by the host hotels in exchange for selling out a room block. IPMS/USA should ALWAYS use the free option when available instead of spending our treasure, IMO.

 

I do not favor members of a future central committee getting a free ride to the convention.

 

I do not believe that this step is necessary. Let's take a slice of conventions and look at them, say............from 2000 to the most recent show in Columbus July, 2015. Identify what the most significant problems were at these conventions. In my view, the biggest issues were that the local leadership were not communicating effectively with the 2nd VP regarding their intentions and procedures. When some of the procedures went "flat", the EB in office at the time, took steps to establish guidelines and requirements that narrowed the potential for repeats of those issues.

Those guidelines and requirements, still in effect by the way, have an excellent track record.

So why, with a string of successful conventions, is there a need to replace local leadership with national leadership...which you advocate gets paid to do a job that is currently being done well by the locals for free?

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I'm curious. What were "all the issues we had at Columbus with CCH and 31?" I was there for the whole Convention. What did I miss? Nick Filippone

The "issue" "per se" was how many women there were. A member was talking to some of them and it turns out that there was going to be almost 20K of them. Forget about using the elevators in a timely manner - forget about using any of the restaurants in the convention center/ hotel and in the nearby area.

When I opened the blinds in my room in the morning and looked out, all you saw out in the streets were a sea of pink T-shirts. :D There was so many of them that I believe they also used the Arena that was a few blocks away.

 

Seems there was also 2 bookers for the hotel/convention center and apparently they didn't talk to each other which led to the overlap.

Edited by Roktman
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The issues with CCH and 31 were:

 

Setup was severely restricted for some vendors, not getting into the rooms until as late as 6:00 on Wednesday because of overlap between when the CCH group was to shut down their event and when IPMS was to start ours.

 

For 31, it created logistical issues again - not only did it clog the hotel rooms, elevators, etc. It did the same with area restaurants. Also, they literally took over the town, so things like load out on Saturday were restricted because they had all the loading/unloading areas congested with their busses - and a complete unwillingness on their part to allow us to load up. It was bad enough that even the Hyatt staff, which was VERY helpful, struggled to tell us where to load out. It illustrated what a small fish we were.

 

If you were just an attendee, you probably didn't notice those things as much, but, man, vendors are important to our show, and they got several raw deals at this show.

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Of course, a popular convention site is going to attract lots of conventions. We are and always will be small potatoes compared to organizations like Mary Kay and 31 and CCH- whatever that was. Given all the problems we are having finding anyplace affordable, we can probably expect these conflicts with other people's conventions will go on-especially when these hotels and facilities have the temerity to actually try to maximize their space and room utilization and therefore their profits! Shocking! Nick Filippone

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There was a "secret" freight elevator behind the hotel check in desk. When the big ladies and their bigger, um, "bags" showed up, my girl and I used that exclusively. No lines, no wait, no worries. In fact, it was so secret, that there was a ginormous sign advertising it in the main elevator alcove. Which is how I learned about it.

 

Also, why are comped rooms for the volunteer leadership such an issue? It shouldn't be. They earned it.

Do the members of the Eboard receive comped rooms at the convention?

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FYI-Per the CB&L only the President receives both travel and a room for the convention. I do not know for sure but I assume that room comes out of the comped room block received by the convention but if not it is paid for by IPMS. The rest of the Eboard is expected to attend and not reimbursed at all (even the 2nd VP that is essential to assisting the host chapters). As far as I know the disposition of any comped rooms is entirely left to the local hosts. I would assume they are used for their key staff to avoid commuting and be more available to serve the convention needs.

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So why, with a string of successful conventions, is there a need to replace local leadership with national leadership...which you advocate gets paid to do a job that is currently being done well by the locals for free?

 

So, why, did IPMS/USA take over the financial aspect of the Nationals as well as mandating a standard registration & awards program?

It was done to save the society the expense and trouble of reinventing the wheel every year.

This discussion is merely an extension of the policy. Nothing has been decided, but we might end up with a new President who is interested in exploring ways to save the society money (and the aggravation of reinventing the wheel with regards to certain positions) - one key way appears to be expanding past the two year bid cycle.

 

There are many things we no longer do the way they were done in the 70s, and others that some believe need to never change. Geologic history is filled with examples of systems that didn't change to adapt to the future. Will IPMS/USA be one more example? That could be the choice we make with regards to whether or not we adapt this aspect.

 

Of course, in the long run, I don't think the Society can survive in it's current form. The average age of the membership is slowly creeping up past the average life expectancy in the western world. I am in the youngest quintile (that's the youngest 20% "for those of you in Rio Linda"), and I don't see very many significantly younger than me. If we don't change to fit the demographics of the younger guys who build models (there are quite a few at the LHS) we will end up entirely irrelevant and collapse when the last dozen of us, much like the Doolittle Raiders, decide to fold the tents up and go home.

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FYI-Per the CB&L only the President receives both travel and a room for the convention. I do not know for sure but I assume that room comes out of the comped room block received by the convention but if not it is paid for by IPMS. The rest of the Eboard is expected to attend and not reimbursed at all (even the 2nd VP that is essential to assisting the host chapters). As far as I know the disposition of any comped rooms is entirely left to the local hosts. I would assume they are used for their key staff to avoid commuting and be more available to serve the convention needs.

 

Close, but not quite:

 

ARTICLE 5 - MEETINGS Section 3. National Conventions
I. The National Convention Host Chapter shall provide the most economical round trip air fare for the National President of IPMS/USA or the official designated to represent him at the National Convention.

 

If the host chapter CHOOSES to give a comp room to the President, that is fine - it's their show. If the President DEMANDS a comp room, then it can become a very large problem if a host chapter doesn't have them written into their hotel contract.

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The reason the National took over the finances was dictated by the IRS. To keep our 504/c/$67.39 or whatever it is tax status, the national organization needed to have tighter control over all its funds.

 

Around 10 years ago, one host offered the President their room free. They used a comped room. Then one year the Pres. drove, so the travel expenses were minimal, so they offered him a room instead. I don't know how common it is now but it is NOT required or asked for.

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Thanks Ron. (504/c/$67.39 !!!! That's funny!) Being a 501c-7 does require controls over funds and the current financial system being used facilitates that requirement. It has little to do with the Local vs National question.

 

I know two things to be true:

1. The current system is not static. It is under constant review and revision. It is an evolutionary process and not a revolutionary process.

2. The one person who has the responsibility of monitoring and steering the convention process at the national level (which also provides guidance to the local leaders) is the 2nd VP. The current 2nd VP is the person who, in my view, knows more about the convention process and its evolution to its current status than anyone else in the Society. And the only person who has announced their candidacy for that office has a wealth of experience gained from his role as a leader in a convention that was a huge success. The office of the 2nd VP is, and will be in the immediate future, in experienced and knowledgeable hands. It is unimportant that I may, from time to time, disagree or question a decision made by one or both of these gentlemen. The main point is that I have immense respect for their knowledge, for their experience, and for their judgment. I trust them to make the proper decision, based on those characteristics.

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As an ex-president, the rooms are given out of the free block when they can as a convenience. In my four years as president, it was done three of the four years. The other year, I was close

 

As \said, not required and the rest of the E-board gets nothing as far as compensation

 

Dave

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The average age of the membership is slowly creeping up past the average life expectancy in the western world. I am in the youngest quintile (that's the youngest 20% "for those of you in Rio Linda"), and I don't see very many significantly younger than me.

 

 

What is the average age of IPMS/USA membership? (Not directed to James, rather someone on the e-board who can definitively answer.)

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One thing the rotation did was kept the west relevant. Even if no one bid we were still in the mix. Now with an at wide bid we can't compete. At least if someone in the west bid in the rotation it forced IPMS's hand. Now they are free to do as they wish. So would argue that's life deal with it. Well that's true but I didn't think alienating members is what IPMS was about. We have contest rules so no one take all the prizes so then why are we so willing to toss legitimate bids just because more money can be made elsewhere. So sweeps is ok when awarding conventions but not models? It's still the same philosophy and if were about spreading the wealth then this should in my opinion go across all aspects of the society right or wrong. You can't have your cake and eat it too as they say.

 

Jim

 

Jim:

 

I suggest you check your facts before making such a statement. In the last 12 years, each area of the country has had 4 conventions each- 4 west, 4 Midwest and 4 east (assuming Columbus is Midwest). So it has been spread fairly amongst all regions for over a decade

 

West- Phoenix, Anaheim Loveland and Phoenix again

 

Midwest, Columbus (x2), Omaha and KC

 

East- Florida, Va. Beach (x2) and Atlanta

 

If you call Columbus east, the Midwest guys are the ones being shortchanged, not the west. Granted, the last time in the west was 2 years ago but the spread is even.

 

And the selections are based on the "best" presentations and packages and this year, it was Omaha

 

Dave

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One point that "may" be leading to some of the west coast animosity, is the number of conventions truly on the west coast.

 

While Dave is correct about the "western region" contests in the past 12 years, you will note that only one, Anaheim, was actually on the coast.

 

In the first 26 national conventions, fully 5 were in California and 2 were in Seattle...7 conventions on the west coast. Since then, in the past 26 conventions, only 2 have been in California and none in any other west coast city.

 

Now, I don't have a dog in this fight, but this might help explain why the west coast is starting to feel a little "left out".

Edited by RLFoster
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I suggest you check your facts before making such a statement. In the last 12 years, each area of the country has had 4 conventions each- 4 west, 4 Midwest and 4 east (assuming Columbus is Midwest). So it has been spread fairly amongst all regions for over a decade

 

West- Phoenix, Anaheim Loveland and Phoenix again

 

Midwest, Columbus (x2), Omaha and KC

 

East- Florida, Va. Beach (x2) and Atlanta

 

If you call Columbus east, the Midwest guys are the ones being shortchanged, not the west. Granted, the last time in the west was 2 years ago but the spread is even.

 

And the selections are based on the "best" presentations and packages and this year, it was Omaha

 

Dave

 

 

How is Loveland = West? It's 1200 driving miles from San Francisco. It's only 500 miles from Omaha, More over it's 1300+ miles from Seattle and only 1400 miles from Atlanta, so I would submit to you that it is central, rather than West.

 

Plus you are cheating by including the conventions that were done when there was a rotation. In the 7 years (2010-2017) since the rotation went away we only had one western convention - Phoenix and even that was 7 years ago.

Vladimir

 

Vladimir

Edited by VYakubov
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We don't track ages or birthdates so there is no way of knowing a definitive answer. I am sure it is probably late 50's or so.

 

 

We in the hobby talk a lot about the aging of modelers and the impact on IPMS and the larger hobby, so it would be nice to have some data to watch any trends. Let's start collecting age as soon as possible.

 

Steve

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2001 Chicago may have been the first "out-of-rotation" Nationals. That was supposed to be a Western Zone year. We were approached in March 1999 as a previously unsuccessful bidder to pull a bid together because no Western Zone chapter had put in a bid by the December 1998 deadline. Other recent unsuccessful bidders were approached as well, but only we responded. In mid-April we were made aware that we might have a belated bid from the Seattle chapter as competition. At the bid meeting in 1999 Orlando, we were indeed the only two bidders. Ours was put together from scratch in just weeks. Seattle's bid was based on their successful 1992 National at their same venue.

 

Because we had been invited to submit a bid, we were assured that the Seattle bid would not automatically receive the nod just because it was the Western Zone's "turn" in the rotation cycle. We had a 50-50 chance. We received the nod at the 1999 National after a formal bid presentation.

 

I do not know if today we could use the same venue again because of the price issue. We, too, had another convention (bigger) added into the facility on top of ours, and we were not told about it until after we filled our room block and tried to add more. We went to neighboring hotels for the overflow room blocks after the primary would not provide any more rooms. We had trouble with the other group raiding our assigned seminar rooms for chairs for their meetings in other rooms.

 

Our banquet room had a side room that was isolated by a moving partition. When it was time for the awards presentation, we filled the side room with chairs and then opened the wall so the seated guests there could view the presentation screen along with the dinner guests. It worked quite well.

 

I drove 3 days from Chicago to reach Phoenix twice, 2 days to Orlando and Walt Disney World twice, 2 days to Virginia Beach twice, one day to Columbus twice, one day to St. Louis once, and one day to Omaha three times (twice for R5 Regionals). I'm like many older gents with a spouse along for the ride and to split the driving; I'm less comfortable with the long, long drives as the years go by. It's two days each way to Columbia and one day to Omaha. We shall see.

 

Ed

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I was only at the Nats for Friday and Saturday. Didn't have any issues getting into restaurants and the elevator situation only seemed to be a big issue right after model pickup on Saturday night. Every nationals I've been to that is always the case. I just relaxed in the bar area and watched the 31 girls :smiley2:

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We don't track ages or birthdates so there is no way of knowing a definitive answer. I am sure it is probably late 50's or so.

 

 

We in the hobby talk a lot about the aging of modelers and the impact on IPMS and the larger hobby, so it would be nice to have some data to watch any trends. Let's start collecting age as soon as possible.

 

Steve

 

 

We're getting into a sidebar here but the problem of getting the "youngsters" involved is at the local level.

All you have to do is read some of the sci-fi forums around the net. You read accounts time after time of 20-30 somethings "kids" coming to a local meeting with their Gundam, Ma.K, X-wing, etc... and having the "old" guys who are huddled around the 10th Bf-109 on the table look down their noses at the kid's model. The comment is something to the effect of "You'd be a good modeler of you built something real." This, of course, gets read by 100s of people on the forum who pass the story around, and soon IPMS is known as a club of old grouchy guys.

So it's incumbent upon the "old guys" at the local level to keep their mouths shut, and accept the kids model whether they think it's junk or not.

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The benefits of moving to a more centralized planning system:

 

1. Bidding can be handled further out avoiding potential conflicts with other conventions that are coming to the same town. The two year horizon is too short. As we look at 2018 and 2019 dates here in Atlanta, there aren't many good slots.

2. Things don't have to be re-learned every year when a new host takes over. If you pull from a national pool of experienced volunteers that know how to operate the systems, then can avoid a lot of pit falls (which are mostly small) that we tend to see every year.

3. Money from the conventions really don't need to be split between local and national. And then with all of the proceeds going to the national side, some of that money can be spent on improving show infrastructure. I know the Atlanta 2005 crew spent considerable amounts of money on local infrastructure that if it was existing, we would not have had to lay that out.

4. We never have to worry about a "no bid year."

5. We can try to look to a true west coast show by looking at spots in the west where there might not be enough local support, but the right kind of facility to host a show.

 

But honestly, after reviewing this, I'm wondering if we should be spending our efforts in other areas (which for me is a completely different set of windmills to tilt).

 

Regardless of how we proceed with planning the national, we need to be doing everything we can to maximize the show's impact on promoting the hobby and making it more of an event that folks are excited about attending.... And that's a whole different set of issues.

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Paul said: "Regardless of how we proceed with planning the national, we need to be doing everything we can to maximize the show's impact on promoting the hobby and making it more of an event that folks are excited about attending.... And that's a whole different set of issues."

 

And THAT is where ONE location for the Nats comes into play. Once you stop worrying about bids, and who's going to host, and where it will be held; you can start concentrating on the event itself.

 

I know some people lament that they'd miss traveling to different places, or that perhaps they'd be jaded with one location for the Nats after a few years because they'd have seen all of the local tourist attractions. But, is travel and local tourism really the reason to attend our Nats? To me, it's not! In fact, the wife gives me grief if I suggest that we make the Nats a part of our "vacation" because vacation is OUR time (not my modeling time!).

 

If, as Paul suggests, we start looking at ways to make the Nats something to be excited about attending, we don't need the lure of travel and local tourism to get people there. We could make seminars and speakers a larger part of the Nats. We could try to re-involve the manufacturers once more, but this time at a level that involved more of the attendees. I'm sure we could come up with many other bright ideas from our members in suggesting what would make THEM want to attend!

 

It might be tough to find ONE place that would work. Then again, as Jim Clark has pointed out, if the venue in Omaha is SO convenient and profitable (and it's certainly centrally located to the country), then maybe that's a place to try to start. Centralizing the Nats committee jobs and expanding the volunteer base to all attendees could solve the man power problems that come with one location. And as also suggested above, perhaps it's not the end of the world (or IPMSUSA) if every Nats isn't a record setter, or if it sort of cycles through some ups and downs while being a steady (if not spectacular) success.

 

No matter where we locate the convention, be it one place, or in a regular rotation; SOMEONE will be inconvenienced EVERY year. Perhaps it's time to put IPMSUSA's best interests ahead of ANY particular coast!

 

GIL :smiley16:

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Some interesting ideas floating around here...

 

Back in my Boy Scout days in Ft. Lauderdale, there would be a huge Camporee held at Holiday Park, in downtown Ft. Lauderdale: The Scoutmasters' Camporee. The Scouters who organized it were known as the Scoutmasters' Camporee Committee (SCC), and it worked in a similar fashion to what Paul and James are suggesting:

 

There would be four Chiefs--the Chief and three Vice Chiefs. Obviously, the man who was in charge of the current Camporee was the Chief. Here's how he got to be Chief...

 

New Scouters were brought into the SCC as a 3rd Vice Chief in March of every year. For that year, they were basically there to watch and learn. They would also serve as the Vice Chief for that year's Fall Encampment. Once the Fall Encampment was over, they would be bumped up to 2nd Vice Chief and a suggestions for a new 3rd Vice Chief were nominated. This was usually late October/early November.

 

Now that he's a 2nd Vice Chief of the SCC, his main duty that year was to act as the Chief of the Fall Encampment. He had a secondary duty, that being second in charge of the Memorial Day activities--the SCC also organized a rather large, rather eventful slate of activities for Memorial Day that included a parade, a BBQ, and canoe races. At some point, it was expanded to cover the whole weekend--additional activities included a 10K bicycle race and a 5k run...

 

Once the year rolled around again, he'd become the 1st Vice Chief. His primary duties were the Memorial Day activities and acting as the Vice Chief for the big Camporee in February.

 

The following year was "his" Camporee. By the time a Scouter got to that point, he had been Vice Chief and Chief of the Fall Encampment, been the Vice Chief and Chief of the Memorial Day program, and had served as Vice Chief for the previous Camporee--in effect, he climbed the ladder and learned all the positions of influence on the District's major outdoor events over the previous three years. Once "his" Camporee was over, he became a Member Emeritus of the SCC and helped to guide later Scouters in their various duties as Vice Chiefs and Chiefs.

 

You had to be nominated to be able to serve. Scouters actually worked hard to be recognized and nominated to the SCC, and once they were confirmed as a 3rd Vice Chief, they had their work cut out for them for the next four years. My father did it, and he enjoyed the process. Of course, my father enjoyed Scouting almost as much--or more--than my brother and I did...

 

If we could gear these IPMS/USA National Convention Steering Committes along similar lines, we may have something...

 

Ralph

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