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Posts posted by JClark

  1. Wow

            I apologize for missing this thread and not checking the forum sooner. As Ed Grune mentioned in regards to the aircraft class, I have made some suggestions to the Head judge regarding OOB. Weather they are implemented or not is up to Mark P. I have personal feelings on OOB, but as a Class head judge I can't let those interfere with the administration of our rules in regards to OOB. As for now it's here due to it's popularity and participation. I Agree, the OOB rules are clear as mud and could do with some house keeping hence the suggestions to Head Judge. Hopefully some clarification will come for the 2021 nats "If it's held". And more importantly if they are not implemented (for 2021) then we will have a chance to discuss my ideas in detail and in person at the NCC meeting which may further the understanding of my intent. 

          As for Decals. Some have mentioned that for OOB to be true you have to use the kit decals. Well yes but the reason aftermarket decals are allowed is due to the fact that decals can degrade over time making them unusable. So why penalize the entrant over something beyond their control? The new Quinta studios offering will be addressed and not allowed in OOB. 



  2. Kevin

         AGAIN.... loose lips sink ships. If the Eboard says anything then that can and will be used against IPMS if a breach of contract suit is brought . So AGAIN... if they tell the membership anything and the reservations plummeted that information can be used against IPMS. David's post brings up the point where the show was cancelled once they got there. Inconvenient yes but it may have saved that shows organizers. 

        IPMS can't afford to tip its hand whatever it may be at this point. Its really not a hard concept to understand. This thing can still go one of several ways. We don't know the behind the scene things going on for a reason. The main one being need to know, and right now we don't need to know. You can cancell room reservations up to 3 days prior to the start. Im pretty sure we will know something by then. Drive time , let's say 2 days prior , we should also know by then. Airlines, I know some who haven't made their reservations yet just waiting to hear, once they do then they will make their decisions. So right now its only for convenience for the membership to know. Someone said were under a month out,  well last I checked it starts on July 29 its june 25 so more that a month out.

      Let the elected leaders do their jobs.  When the Ebaord is in a position to make an announcement they will,  until then why berate the point. And ultimately if you don't like what they did dont vote for them again, or better yet, run for office and present your platform for what you would have dont differently to save the organization 100k or more.



  3. Let's think this through and think ahead. What does everyone want the E-boatd to say ? 

      1) Were waiting to see what happens.... then everyone piles on them for not canceling now to save mankind as we know it.

     2) Were cancelling. Great then what happens? everyone cancelles their room nights, the hotel sees whats up and starts asking questions as to why? which will adverse effect us in the contract. 

      AGAIN it may very well be that the Eboard is planning on cancelling, But they 1) are hoping the state closes to save the 6 figures and 2) staying silent to protect their contractual position. This being fiscally responsible to the national membership as a whole , which is far from the accusations being throw at them for being silent. 

       Give em a break and let it play out.



    • Like 2
  4. Two points of clarification on the last two posts.

    Nick, to us here in AZ anything east of the Mississippi River is "Back east"... lol

    All,,,, it has be said of the financial hit the Texas team will take multiple times here. That simply isn't true. Since 2010 all finances for the National convention have run through the national office. They control all monies related to the convention throught the convention account. That eleviates any financial burdens the host would incure due to some unforseen circumstance like what is happening now.       Some minor expenses such as convention programs, t shirts, and any overage on the budget for awards would be on the local hosts but that's it. Everything else, venue rental, table rental, awards "to a certain amount" , AV rental, hotel room nights ect effect what the national office pays. What will effect the local host most is their 50/50 split of profits with the national office. It's very unlikely any profits will happen this year so all their hard work will go unrewarded.  



  5. 45 minutes ago, RevZoom said:

    G Hodges and his Me Only attitude is exactly why I am not going to the Nats. I'm sure he will say, Great, your choice, you won't be missed. No, probably not (although I have done rather well model wise over the years), but it is a shame when a few can essentially dictate the decisions others are forced to make by having only concern for themselves.


                Look at what you just wrote... First we can only be responsible for ourselves and make decisions thusly. If that is what you are construing as a me only attitude them I have to ask , really?. Your last sentence takes the cake because that is exactly what you are doing by advocating for the outright cancelation of the event. This whole "I can't go and feel safe, so no one else should be able to go either attitude" to me is mind boggling.  How is having the event preventing you from NOT going? how in anyway is that dictating decisions others are forced to make? If anything its the other way around , YOU WANT TO DICTATE what others can and can't do by outright cancelation of the event. 



    • Like 1
  6. Wow, this is intertaining. And I thought some of the things I posted on the forum in the 90's about OOB And Sweeps got things going, Ha! they don't hold a candle to this. 

       So cloth masks,,,, Well (most) people in public who fart do so with some kind of cloth covering so yeah enough said about cloath masks. 

       Next. surgical masks, well those bad boys were designed for sterile environments,  we don't live or interact in one of those so yeah maybe good for about 30 minutes and need to be discarded after every use or 30 minutes whichever comes first.

      Next up the N95. Now you're talking protection. Best thing going out there, but wait sham-wow users there's more. They have a pesky little thing called an exhaust port so in the unlikely chance you are infected you are now protecting NO ONE, which seems to be a big concern for some who base their whole argument on it's "not for your protection but to not harm others". Those N95 masks are good for about 3 uses then you need to sterilize them including that pesky exhaust port or ditch em. 

      People want to feel safe in a world that never has been safe. We all take chances everytime we roll out of bed.  So all of us , in a month or tomorrow morning , will roll out of bed and make that decision wheather to go or not. It's ultimately up to each of us ( insert dead horse here) What I do find amusing is the percentage of the population who feels its their duty to enforce their beliefs for the good of all upon others. Hummm when has that ever happened before? 

       Be responsible for yourself. Because that's the only person you can be responsible for. 

     Peace out brothers and sisters of Sprue


    • Like 1
  7. It's really quite simple. IPMS has to wait as long as they can to see if The state will impose more restrictions that will allow IPMS out of the contract. If IPMS cancells now they are on the hook for 6 figures. At some point though if the state stays open then IPMS will have to make a hard call . But we are not there yet. It may very well be that IPMS intends to cancel, but they can't at this point since we are still hoping that the state will shut its doors letting IPMS off the hook.

          Now as others have stated, its all up to each of us to make a our own personal decision wheather to go or not if the convention is held.  So I would say don't wait for IPMS to make the decision for you, make your own informed decision based on your own circumstances. 

        So let's all just wait and see what happens and let this play out.



    • Like 2
  8. David

                 To answer your last question, yes. While I don't know them off hand the dates for 2021 and 2022 are part of the contracts that Las Vegas and Omaha signed.  Now to the "Force Majeure". I'm not a lawyer "Thank god" but the way I read that clause it wouldn't apply to our convention even If it's in the contract. While IPMS may not fulfill the numbers required due to various reasons I doubt the center will see it that way. Since they are open for business (UNLESS) there is a major re-occurance of the virus and everything closes back up. Then IPMS may have an argument. For me that's the key, the highlighted area, while it applies, it's hard to claim that when everything is open. ***BUT*** reading more into it if something like that is in the contract then it may be possible since IPMS may be affected Materially to perform giving the circumstances. It's just what both parties can agree to. Again if it's in the contract. It may come down to IPMS claiming something like what is written and the hotel saying  tough , we're open and it's not our problem your membership didn't show up. A sticky wicket for sure. But I, Like you can only speculate at this point.



  9. Gary

               Nope not mad at all. I just take issues with a few of your points that's all. I'm sorry if you think I came across as ugly but again i was just making my points. I'll copy and paste your comments and answer them from the 1st post, then the second. 

    Your first post> 

    A few points and I will be quick.  My comments are as a Modeler, IPMS Member, and a Vendor.   

    1. Postpone the convention until 2023.   Getting the already bought items like shirts, awards, etc for this years convention in 2023 would be a unique way to remember this time.   So, all of it can be used and we all will have a great story to tell. 
    2. Who here wants to take responsibility for someone healthy coming to the convention, getting the bug and either having the virus themselves or worse spreading it when they get home.   Sure, some of you want to play fast and loose with it but until there is a therapy and/or a vaccine, it is a medical risk for everyone.  
    3. In reality, while we all love to come to the NATS for the various reasons, it is not required to attend...it is for enjoyment.  Yes there are many risky enjoyments that Many of us participate in.   None of us will go flying without a preflight and none of us would go skydiving without checking the gear.   If someone, with expertise told you there may be a hidden problem somewhere with the Plane or the chute rig, would you chance it??   No, no sane individual would.  

    My wife and I are not in any of the risk categories for COVID-19, but our Doctors, including our Daughter who is a US Navy Doctor, say unnecessary exposure to others is to be avoided....period.   To do otherwise is to take unnecessary risk.......and its is with your life people!


         Ok, Point one, What will people recieve? T-shirts already bought? Ok fair enough but you can't hand out already purchased and constructed awards. A decal sheet that may or may not have been produced? as well as programs that now would be useless. Also how would you distribute them? mailing would cost money and I would venture a bet that most people haven't registered for the convention yet and they would be the only ones to fairly receive them so now in essence you have maybe 700 to 1000 registration packs with how many registrants right now? and how many would register given the fact it may still be cancelled? So in reality there are not any "already bought items" save for whatever items the planning committee is selling.

               Point two, Not being mean here just reality, no one is ultimately responsible except for themselves. If you have a fear of contracting something then stay home, or if you fall into one of the associated groups that need to stay home then by all means stay home and do what is right for you. But what may be right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone. So that's when i take exception to your "Fast and Loose" comment. There is currently a vaccine for the flu and how many die of the flu every year? As I said we don't live in a sterile world, we all take chances.

              Point three, Experts can't agree on this let alone try to fix it as they have done with the flu, yes the flu that kills how many each year? And I agreed with you with on this being a required event, it's not. But my point is everyone is not in the same boat. So when you say Someone with expertise says not to go and I may feel otherwise then, (I'm not sane), or (playing fast and loose) And then finally (And it is with your life people) Those are inflammatory comments with the implication that those who disagree are all the things you just called them.


    Your second post>

    I have waited to respond until I had a free few minutes, as you are obviously mad and I wanted to try an understand why.

    First this is a friendly conversation and no need to get ugly.   Second you need to read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.  If you don't like it address it, but be better than accusing me of writing something I did not about character.

    What does concern me is a 6 figure contact being signed with no legal consultation, and the fact that no contract insurance was purchased.   I would be willing to bet though, that if the committee did sat down for a meaningful discussion with the facility, that a deal could be worked out for rescheduling the event until 2023 with minimal if any additional costs, given the current world environment.   Cancelling the event completely, or going forward with a very small event that looses money are not in either parties best interests.

    I guess I would feel better if NATS Committee had a conversation to explore possible rescheduling until 2023 vs acting like we have no way out.   So far all we have been told is that the convention center has been receptive to re-negotiation if there is a problem.   I say that such a problem is here right now.   



           You're correct it's supposed to be friendly conversation but I think I have already addressed the ugliness with your comments about being insane, playing fast and loose, and it is your life people comments. 

         A 6 figure contract was signed 2 years ago without any thought to a pandemic occurring . I would venture that they probably didn't take into account a possible meteor strike either. Contract insurance, good question, i have no idea if it was bought but would take a guess that if purchased the insurance company would balk as they have with numerous travel insurance plans have balked at people trying to get out of and get money back for lost trips. They weren't covered because they were "Acts of god". So I'm not real confident on how insurance would help in this case. Now betting on the venue rebooking is a BIG assumption and we all know about assumptions. Not saying it couldn't be done or shouldn't tried but don't put all your eggs in that basket because the venue like everyone else needs to recoup lost revenue for the past two months. Letting IPMS off the hook when the city is open for business would be something I don't see happening. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last.

       The planning staff may be acting like there is no way out because there is no way out. The convention committee are the boots on the ground there and know the in's and out's of these issues better than any of us. You may say there is a problem now but the venue may not see a problem now especially as the city is opening for business . That's why I'm very sceptical of getting out of or re-negotiating a contract.



    • Like 1
  10. Gary if I may answer your points.

       1) We can't postpone/cancel UNLESS you want to organization to eat a 100k bill. We (IPMS) would have to pay the convention center, decorators (IE Tables) not to mention AV costs , food requirements by backing out of the contract that was signed 2 years ago . Plus add in awards that are already manufactured WITH DATES ON THEM.  

      2) No one here or in IPMS would be taking responsibility for anyone attending, that is on the individual attending. It is your choice to go or not. We all have taken a chance every year by attending and catching anything that may be out there. We do not live in a sterile world. So no one is playing "Fast and Loose". Living is a medical risk until death happens.

     3) Agreed it is not required to attend , so again you have the freedom of choice to come or not. 

    What I do take exception to is this. Your assumption that anyone who decides to go if the convention is held in somehow insane because they may not agree with your opinion. We all take calculated Risks in life. I drove 5k miles last year to attend, and I would say the odds of being involved in an accident were greater than the odds of catching something and dying of it this year. 

    Do I want the convention canceled? Well at the end of the day my or anyone else's opinion doesn't really matter. What matters are contracts and how local governments decide to do business which directly affects those contracts.



  11.         As mentioned before , it's not as simple as that. You can't push dates around when contracts with venues have been signed. Plus the venue (In this case San Marcos) needs to make money to offset their loss the past 6 to 8 weeks so if they can be open they will expect their signed contracts to be upheld. If IPMS were to cancel it would be a huge hit on the society and one that a Go fund me wouldn't make up for.  IPMS can't even rely on continued membership (people  let thiers lapse and only reup if the convention is close) Let alone banking on a Go Fund me effort. Granted Dave your gesture is noble, I just don't see it taking place on the scale needed for the reason given above.

          I'll use some rough numbers. Our expense for just the convention center a couple years ago was around 25K. Now factor in lost room nights for the hotel and the loss of the food requirement. Now add in the monies that IPMS would owe for table set up, already purchased awards and (possibly) T shirts plus AV equipment rentals that were forced upon us at an exorbitant rate of around 11K for just one evening. You start closing in on a 100K bill pretty fast. And these conventions routinely pass the 100K mark in expenses. 

          So yes numbers probably will be down but even if they are down some kind of cash flow will come in to offset the loss expected and then IPMS will have to make up the difference. Granted its a bad situation but what choice is there? IPMS cancels and loses half of the monies in the coffers or hold it and take the lumps.

         The only way IPMS escapes in some degree is if the local government says people can't gather in more than a certain amount of people or conventions can't take place. That would force the convention center to cancel. Then it's out of IPMS's hands and then possible to get out of some or all of the already signed contracts. Then the center could offer up a deal for 2023. But with the start of gradual reopening of the economy I don't see the city saying it's closed 10 weeks from now after being close for the past 8 weeks.




  12. It really is a pickle but If the city stays open then really IPMS and the planing hosts have no other choice then to go forward with it and hope to not lose too much money with decreased numbers both in attendants and Vendors. 

       Gil brings up an interesting thought about judging with the whole distancing issues. I do believe there is a way with 3 team members to stay away from each other. The trick is in how to keep other teams from bumping into each other while out on the floor. It may require some organization of staggering categories while being judged so as to allow a one category space between teams. We will have to see the layout but "usually" they go fairly close in number sequence so we could assign categories with spacing allowances.



  13. All

               My .02 cents for what it's worth. RC Boater hit the nail on the head. If it does get cancelled then move it to 23. But provided it gets cancelled by the hotel or local authorities. Now here is another no win factor for IPMS. Attendance, Vendors may and have pulled out, pre reg and actual walkins I would bet would be down due to fear and also genuine concerns of quite a few of our embers being up their in age and risk factors . So even if the facility goes ahead and lets it continue does IPMS have an out in the contract with these genuine concerns of loosing big bucks due to low attendance. Either way its a no win for us as an organization. Cancel and loose the convention, or hold hit and loose $$$$$. 



    • Thanks 1
  14. Wow Nick

                 I think you went down a long path there, LOL.


                Ralph, you quoted George 

    14 minutes ago, Ralph Nardone said:

    Its supposed to be about the models, not the medals.

                If that were truly the case then Why does Wonderfest give out awards? Why does AMPS give out awards, Why does IPMS and all the affiliated chapters give out awards? Because enough people want them.  If it's not about medals then why is the Open system side advocating for wait for it, "The possibility of awarding More medals".  Even the UK nats "Scale model world" where club displays outnumber contest entries by a large amount has a competition section. So if it truly about the models and became a display only event then I would bet the Nats would die.  Plenty of people seem to still enjoy the competition aspect. If a modeler prefers a certain system other than what IPMS offers then they do have options Like AMPS and Wonderfest and the myriad of auto and figure shows out there. 

            This argument/conversation reminds me of the Rivet counter vs Just build for yourself guys. One side describes the other as Mr. Seletas points out (Pumped out chest like it's the NFL).  Then the other side is (well build a better model) . Attitudes based off of perceptions are often just wrong. Everyone enjoys this hobby in different ways . Problems arise when those who "feel" left out want change to "feel" accepted/rewarded.

           As for feedback and learning I would venture to say that the world series is the wrong place to learn how to play baseball. So why then come to a national competition expecting to learn how to model. I know why I didn't place, I know all the issue with my model. The judges found them and I take my lumps. If people have to have the knowledge of why they didn't place that won't happen since you then have to involve other people's models in the reasoning of how the placements were decided upon and we can't do that. One may say they just want critique about their model but what they really want to know is why they didn't place. Then once you tell them what is wrong then THEY start the comparison between others on the table and start arguing with you , Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt....And they could and would do that with an Open system too since they would feel they deserved a higher medal.

        In the end I believe entrants ( both sides of this argument included) need to wrap their heads around the fact that if it is truly about models then go display your model on a contest table and don't get to wrapped up in results. All an award is at the end of the day is icing on the cake of what should be an already awesome modeling excursion to see old friends, buy stuff we don't need, and look at cool models. Sure, it's fun to get something extra and receive an award but but don't let that be the basis of everything like it seems both sides are all about.



  15. 9 hours ago, PeteJ said:

    Jim, good point but that is a flaw of  all  judging systems as long as humans are doing the judging.  There have been models that won best of show at Nat's and didn't place at other major shows and visa versa.  In theory, that shouldn't happen when the criteria are the same, but it does happen for many reasons.  One judge(or group of judges) may not see a particular flaw or judge it less significant that another.  Nothing works 100% of the time and lord know we have tried.  GSB, 1-2-3, points systems, it doesn't matter.  Try as you may, you will never remove human bias from the equation.  

    Hi Pete

                 I understand that a BIS from a 1,2,3 contest could on another day get skunked, It all depends on what shows up on any given day and any given event for a 1,2,3 contest. I'm just worried about the "Look" of it when something wins a gold at the local or regional and then it's brought  to a Nats (If Open was being used there)  and it doesn't match up. Because if IPMS is sanctioning the lower level event (and of course the national) then it needs to match up. If not then you'll have entrants wondering what's going on , then that can of worms tips over and that becomes the new complaint about IPMS. 

                Do I think the a GSB system could be implemented at the Nats, Yes, (and it would have to mirror A LOT of what we do now) I do but then that exact system would have to be used for all local and regional sanctioned IPMS events that wanted to do Open judging for consistency. As it is now IPMS is free to let locals do as they wish since Open is different than the traditional system and as I stated in my first sentence , Anything can show up anywhere against anything in a 1,2,3 contest. There is leeway now. Go to open at the Nats and things get bound up. You don't see any AMPS events going against what their National does so as to stay consistent. And while AMPS may be ok with varying results from local to National I'm not so sure IPMS is.



  16. Good points All!

          I have posted a few thoughts over on the facebook page but I keep coming back to this in my head. You can make number say anything you want and I believe that is what Gill was getting at. So a survey , vote or whatever doesn't really say much unless it's a slam dunk mandate. Maybe it is like Gil said, Until we have more,"many more" local chapters doing Open conventions that are successful will leadership take notice. And again why as Nick stated should the E-Board or the NCC upset the apple cart of a very successful show as it is now. For me that is the one way the membership can influence the National. You get 65% or more locals doing open judging then the national has to take notice since that would prove it's validity on a national scale. 

       I was talking with a fellow judge today about all this and here is the fly in the ointment that we talked about. Lets assume the national goes to the Open style. In theory if an entrants model got a Gold in a regional or even a local then its entered in a National and doesn't get a Gold then what does that say about the whole system? As it is now You could get a gold in a local open and then go to Nats and place or not . Essentially the standard is the same in the Open system whether it's local/regional/ or National so the result would have to be the same right? And what happens if it isn't is the bigger question. I wonder how AMPS handles this ?



  17. O boy where to start. LOL

          Personally I do feel it's time to go. BUT it is very popular due to the misconception you need extras to win. I did the math, when OOB was awarded within the regular categories 38% of the time one of the place winners was also the OOB winner. That tells me you don't need extras to win. But people want to believe what they believe so.... If judges are doing what they are supposed to be doing then OOB builds within a regular category should be at no disadvantage. Heck you could argue just the opposite since there is less to screw up. I would love to see those OOB categories reconfigured into more regular categories , But I don't see this happening since the popular misconception is still present. I do not see the NCC canning categories that are popular for what ever reason.  

  18. DAK

                    The class head judge may have agreed with your choice. But did he know HOW you came about it? That's the key. You find whatever nit picky detail you can to make a decision. I have said my peace on how unfair this is to entrants to simply pick your favorite.... And all I am saying is in the final stages, depending on the entries, it always comes down to fining the one with the least weighted errors. That's defendable. Picking your favorite is NEVER defendable.

                    I'm signing off from this thread. Really no more can be discussed...




  19. DAK

                   You'll be hard to miss, LOL...

                    We don't run out of awards because there is a budget per a set number of categories. We had 196 categories last year with 5 extras allots per the NCC. I requested we only do 4 since  5 would put us over (By1) our package requirement of 50 per block when ordering. If anything we had extras left over from categories not used. Each class head judge knows how many categories they have and the freedom the make changes on the spot but they have a budget to stay within. Right now that's a very positive thing for both the NCC and the local host.

                   You may see both going hand in hand, you may have personnel "feelings" about how judging should be done. You may "Feel" personal appeal is relevant, But show me where in the rule book where it states you can use "feeling and personal views" . You can't because it's not there and it's  not quantifiable.  Rules are there for you to use, not do as you wish.

                   How how you choose to model is up to you. But once you enter the "Contest" and right now that is what it is. You have rules and criteria that will be used to judge your model . As a judge you have to fairly apply those to have a fair outcome. If not then what happens when the entrant asks why they didn't place and your reply as a judge is " you didn't weather your model". Entrant> Well the rule book didn't say I had to weather my model …  We have negative based outcome judging for a reason, its clearly quantifiable , you can point to any of the issues that are called for in the rule book as to why you came to your decision. Using personal likes,,,, not so much.

                   But in the end I get your position. You want to classify things in construction as accuracy because that's the way you (feel) about it even thought we are told not to use accuracy in our decisions because we can't know everything about every model.. You want to pick what you want in judging because that's the way you (feel) about it. I can see why your point of view makes sense to you. But when you judge the correct way you have to put away your bias, apply the rule, put on the blindfold and hold the scales.



               I would rather have and be a part of a society with members who care what is going on and have a passion not only for the hobby but the convention/contest and society. Even if we disagree. Being engaged is part of the fun. Right DAK ?



               Ok it's official, the dead horse arose and was promptly hammered back into the ground. That's all from me Folks, See you guys and gals in Chattanooga ;-)



  20. DAK

                     We are picky because these are points of craftmanship... Period. Not because they are not on the real things. Yes we are building models based off the real thing but in the end we are judging models in front of us not the real thing. And the models in front of us need to be constructed in a manner that do not have glue and seams because it's been established that in the course of construction you don't' leave those things behind. If we used your line of logic then accuracy would rule supreme because everything down to glue and seams is all about accuracy. I would strongly suggest reading the rules and application of accuracy.

                     Again "The horse is beginning to smell here" If you pick something you like over something you don't then you are doing two things. 1) Not applying the rules because no where in there does it allow you to do any such thing. 2) You do a disservice to the entrant. … Now you may run your local shows like this and that is your prerogative but it doesn't adhere to the principals laid out in the handbook. You mention two different teams getting to different results. I would say if that's happening then there is your problem . Two different teams doing whatever they want picking what they like and NOT administering the guidelines set for in the handbook. If both teams apply the rules they should both be getting close to the same results. Placements may vary but the same 3 to 4 models should be in the running. So you prove my point that if the rules are not being applied correctly its a utter crap shot and I ask again , how is that fair to any entrant to any contest. It's not a representation of what is best, but it turns into merely what 3 people like. There is a big difference there. One "Your way" is based on popularity, the other , a decision is reached based on rules applied to see which model is more correctly executed .  

                  My points on your multi tier system were/are more questions seeking clarity on your proposal. My questions would be (and I'll use your example of 72nd novice aircraft) would that be jet or prop? would there be multiple sub categories 105a,b,c,d...do we use the current category structure like we do now. And what formula do you use to come at total for 72nd novice aircraft? Lets say you have 80 entries in 105 A through D, how many awards are budgeted?  Lets say you place a number on those 80 at 20, what if you run out of awards? Do you get more form other lesser populated categories? If so we already do that. I would also say this about a multi tier system with one generic award, "IE either you get one or your don't'" I don't see it flying with the membership . At least the current survey underway gives options of two well know systems. This would be completely different and I don't think very well received. We have a hugely successful contest/convention as it is now. To can that in favor of something never tried won't happen.  All of these are things each local has to consider when hosting a National contest. Ask me how I know...

      In closing, if you are going to Chattanooga look me up and we can talk about this further ;-)




  21. Dak

                No, again we are picky because you can't leave glue behind while building "A model"... Comparing glue blobs to silicone used on real airframes is quite the stretch. If you want to use putty and paint it to replicate said silicone then that's another matter which should be pointed out on the entry form. Take credit for the effort put in . But calling glue blobs a non construction issue is simply not correct and is used in the handbook as an example of what not to do when building a model. It's not discussed as an accuracy issue. Your local guy is a perfect example of not reading the rules and should not be surprised when he doesn't finish well regardless of what "He feels" is important. It's about what is written down not how everyone feels. AKA the rule of law. You tried explaining that to him to no avail. Well I would say that person can't be reached if they don't want to listen.

              Pre shading vs non pre shading. If you are apply the rules correctly the fact that one is and one isn't won't play into the decision. If it does then you as a judge are picking what you like and again you can't do that. How is any entrant supposed to know what you like as a judge? They loose out because they decided to go pristine and you like weathered? how is that a fair application of the rules? and ultimately to our fellow modeling brethern. Agreed on the mixed judging team. It has many applications to police actions such as those items that you brought up. If it comes down to the team being unable to come to a consensus and needs to talk to the class head about something like this then so be it. That's why we have class heads, to give guidance to the team in making it's decision.

             Ok now I may be beginning to understand your system. No more categories just lump everyone together per division. Ok so we have a budget of 196 categories with 3 places each. That's 588 total awards. Would you now just give a generic award to a model with no place "since there isn't a category" ? And how would you budget those 588 per division and what happens if you run out? Another question,  you say novice would get more awards, I would say that the masters modelers would get more awards since they are much more likely to get things correct , that is if I am understanding your system correctly. I can see where you're going with the multi level but I'm not to sure about scrapping our current system . Another question is if you don't have categories nd are not competing against each other then in your multi level would it be more of an Open system? and if so then you need more awards for the 3 colors in GSB. That's one of the points in open GSB system, there isn't a budget for awards. if you meet the standard accordingly then you awarded one of 3. that's hard to budget for unless you by one award that stays the same year in an out and you have plenty on had with the extras to carry over from year to year. Or do you just hand out 588 awards that do not designate anything other than here is an award. Just trying to understand you system...


  22. DAK > Well, I suppose that is how you look at them, so I stand by my statement. I would never judge the shade of paint, or put calibers to a model, but that big glob of glue is not accurate (generally) and is poor craftmanship as well.


     As the book says and it IS what we follow, Accuracy is historical in nature and impossible to enforce since we don't know all about all entries. Calling a glue blob an accuracy is issue is simple not the correct term. Glue blob is construction, 3 national insignia on one wing would be accuracy...This is the kind of thing that gets people confused when we say we dont' judge accuracy when you say we do. That is simply not true or is not supposed to happen.


    DAK> All model building is art. Not all is great art anymore than the doodles on a napkin by Picasso are great art. (regardless of how valuable they are.) At the very least, model building is found art...where you take premade items and turn them into something else. Each model builder brings his own unique take on how something should look. That means the shade of color used, specific placement of markings, application of paint, and countless other little details. For example, that figure you mentioned is based on a two dimensional picture, so you paint the back side...the unseen side...to suit your minds eye.


    Agreed, that is why I posted the picture as an example...


    DAK> There are a number of vehicles where not all wheels touch the ground unless it is under load. I have seen aircraft that sag to the side because of pneumatic or hydraulic bleed off, when powered down. There are countless things which not all are aware of and the entrant must make the effort to explain things. The judge should not impose his view on the situation. In times past, I have met judges that did claim something is not possible even though the evidence was presented to them. It is hard to discuss this because for every example given someone will find an exception.


    Agreed but at some point if it's not included on a judging form assumptions have to be made. Kits come ready to be assembled in a square and plumb fashion. It's also spelled out in the rules. To use excuses that the real thing may have been leaning to cover up the builders errors is simply gaming the system. Now if the builder purposely leans an aircraft because of an asymetrical load and makes note of it then I guess I could buy that. But to just to come out with that as a general statement as an excuse then that is just going to get the builder into trouble.


    DAK> We do judge style. It is ambiguous and changes over the years, but a certain look becomes popular...like Verlindenization was in the late seventies...and if the model isn't following that style, it suffers in competition. Its all part of a big picture that people pick up on subconsciously. Certain colors are not appealing, no matter how accurate they are and thus put people off.


     If you do then I would say you are doing it wrong. No where are we allowed to judge style. 



    The skill level based contest as I have described it over in the Survey string, is based on the entrant's own personal choice as to what level they want to compete at. We would not be creating a Master class. If you feel you are as good as those in the master division, then enter there. It does keep the allow the newbies from being FORCED to compete with the masters, as they are now.

    The number of awards needed would not change, if we use a single award system. I.E. you win an award or you do not; there is no ranking of the award as the is now. The awards would be apportioned out based on the number of entries in a class. More models in a class; more awards in a class.


      Not that I am opposed to skill levels but you are adding classes and divisions. You say we would not be creating a master class but then say people could compete there if they so desired? How can that be? If you have 3 different levels of competition the for example you will triple each and every category. And yes awards would triple too regardless of what you hand out since all three levels in each category would have to be awarded. As i understand it and example would be #107A novice, 107A intermediate, 107A master. 3 places for each thats 9 awards as opposed to the 3 we have now for #107A. Also not to mention the time involved to judges triple the amount of categories. But I made my points in an earlier post in this thread on that account...






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