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Everything posted by JClark

  1. Dak Then all choices in AMPS are wrong since they only grade models based on their opinion not direct comparison. That's why certain open systems across the planet works for them, they are willing to dismiss errors for stuff they prefer. That's a bias. It's even been openly said if you don't paint in a certain style at a particular show in Europe that uses open judging that you won't be considered ,and use the excuse that judging is subjective to be able to do that.So they openly make excuses to do what they want,, that's open judging.That's not sticking to the rules. Does a judge in a court of law overlook a law because they may personally not like it and think it unfair? NO , they are their to make sure the law is followed. That's our job, to make sure the rules are followed. We're not their to say we'll the finish is so great it over comes the pin marks , seams, glue, alignment , and other "basic"issues. There is a reason the phrase "Back to basic's" exists.. And with that the Titanic slips beneath the icy cold waters. Gentlemen it's been interesting to say the least. Jim
  2. Cameron Construction first is not a Bias, it's listed as a first criteria in the judging guidelines. Any entrants finish as stellar as it may be will never overcome a basic issue.If you can't get the basics correct then it's all for naught. Put on the uniform, shine all the buttons, make sure you're lint, free shine the shoes but it's all for nothing if your shoes aren't tied. If you can pull of some fine finish then you can get things straight. That's not bias, that applying the guidelines as writen.All you want to do is concentrate of the fun stuff, the finish and let that sway your opinion. At this point I would have to ask you if judging is a good fit for you since you clearly have a bias when NONE should exist. Jim
  3. Cameron Again it's not just construction, YOU know that. Also picking what you may like isn't fair to the entrant plain and simple as they have no idea what to build to. And when I look at a model crooked gear, leaning fuselage, canopies not straight, bombs and ordnance not properly aligned on racks stick out like a sore thumb regardless of whatever finish is on them. See alot of that in nervous magizes that concentrate on the wow of finish .. Now he's the thing, I'm not elected, I set no direction in the rules other than to tell the judges to follow them and not go off and do what they want based on how they "interpret" them. As far as representing ,well I'm only one voice. Jim
  4. Dak> Of course you see the system as fine. You are in a position of authority and such people are rarely ready to admit there may be a better way to do things. Next, you throw out the specter of "ruining the National Convention" to instill more fear of change. I have not said we need to change things now. I merely put my ideas out as food for thought because things do change and we need to have some ideas where the problems may develop and have some possible answers at hand. (Acting, not re-acting.) Rather than ask for more details or explanation---even through a private message, all you have really done was belittle and stone wall the subject. I would also point out, it was rigidity to change which created AMPS, in the 1980s, when IPMS was so areocentric they refused to listen to the armor guys, who then went and started an entirely new group which has syphoned off members, money, and attendees from the IPMS National. I also note you just ignored the the problems I brought up. (Which have been on going for decades.) You also haven't apologized for slandering me. First off I'm not in a position of any authority it's much more an administrative position and I have only done this job for one year. But I do have experience in the system of many years. The GSB arguments are nothing new, Back in 2004 at the National this was talked about so it's far from nothing new and all the points you brings up were brought up back then. As for ruining it you and other don't' realize the amount of people that will leave IPMS if a change is made. We have talked about this before. How do you grow the society by doing something that will make people leave it? So the new ideas aren't really that. Those are facts and no belittling is occuring. Just rehashing history...Actually AMPS firsat year was 93 and yes it was born out of IPMS's reluctance to change. SO what? Good for them for starting thier own thing. I admire that kind of drive and attitude. If you don't like something, don't try and change it start something new. They wanted to be more like all the rest of the shows in Europe using the open system. Why should IPMS do like all the rest? why can't we offer something different ? You say I belittle but then you use words like "IMPS being s so aerocentric" IPMS has always been the one show that welcomes everyone. It's not IPMS's fault if aircraft is popular. And who says they didn't listen? just because they didn't enthusiastically embrace the idea? And when you say it "Has" syphoned member's, well I see a lot of APMS guys year in and year out at the National so AGAIN how bad is IPMS? that they attend our show, set up stands, and enter the competition. So I'm not buying that...What problems have been going on for decades, I've been in for decades and I don't see the problems you see so are they really problems or jut issues you don't like? And for the slander , well please point out where I supposedly did that. I admitted to the mis-quote but Slander???? Jim
  5. DAK What you see as a problem I see as an opportunity to fair adjudicate a contest. It's not a problem.. Change the system and guess what, you'll still have complainers and people calling us elitists . The way we do things works, works well as is evident in participation and is as fair as it can be.. Change it as you suggest and we run the real risk of ruining the National event.. So yes. that's why I'm defensive about what we do and defend it against "ideas" based on "feelings" and preconceived notions. There isn't a need to change. I'm all for change if needed but it's not here. Jim
  6. So Dak 3 runners show up, run a race and 3 cross the line.No records broken but they finish. So according to you if none of them meet a supposed "standard" none get awarded? That's the point, there is no standard in a competition. Each contest against each other, NOT a standard, that's why it's a competition.... it's the most fair and un bias way to do what we do. Do anything other than that and you open the door to bias. And you are correct, I miss quoted you and quoted Ralph. Jim
  7. Ralph To bad you're done with the thread because I was not talking about any of your posts, I was replying to DAK... I thought that was fairly obvious when i quoted him in my post, but I guess not. As for ever increasing awards costs how does that apply when we have a fixed amount of awards every years that hasn't changed in how many years now? What has more to do with costs is what the local decides to do for the national show. You may like to receive re-treaded awards year in and year out but I would venture to say most do not. As for bad behavior, well humans are> "Insert favorite adjective here _____" ... I've never seen it in the past 25 Nationals I've been to. Local shows? well all bets are off. To Dak > While choosing winners based on what we like is more the fact than the exception and really isn't all that bad a concept. Just because it is the one "I LIKE BEST" doesn't mean it isn't the best crafted. Then those judges are doing it wrong. Period, no where in the guidelines we use does it allow for us to be bias and pick what we like, again how is any entrant supposed to know what a judge likes and how do they build toward that goal? they can't thus it's unfair ... So to answer your statement > Just because it is the one "I LIKE BEST" doesn't mean it isn't the best crafted. I say it isn't the best one because you have already allowed bias into your decision making process so there is no way to tell if it truly is the best one because you are bias and we have no time for bias in our judging. > While many ask "what is wrong with my model?" most really want to ask "why did the other model win!". True! but in your case you can simply tell them you didn't like it, since you favor biased judging. I want to see how that one goes over... > Judging will continue to become more difficult as the number of entries increase. In theory, the number could eventually reach a quantity we cannot judge in the time available Well then we must be doing something right to keep getting the attendance we are getting. So yeah let's toss it out the window and do something completely different... How does that make any sense at all ??? You run the real risk of ruining everything that's been built and killing attendance thus any money that's made or now lost. I assure you IPMS can't afford to many National contest/convention failures. > We like contests. They will continue to be the main draw of the National convention. However, there are some people who are obsessed with an established ranking of the winners. Well DAK that's what a contest is. Ranking of winners. It's not a grading at an exposition, 2 vastly different things.... > The line between accuracy and craftmanship is often hard to see. There are numerous situations where the judges clearly based their opinion on what they thought was accuracy. Not really, Things have to be straight, there is mechanical accuracy that have to be accounted for. Example I had a category this year with 19 entrants all of which had crooked gear except for one. A basic issue but somehow some people think these models need more recognition ? So lets trash our current system, and now allow for more awards and recognition but yet we can't get by a first cut since all have basic issues that are wrong. So yeah lets just toss out basics, look for awesome paints jobs (Which many have advocated for) and award the ones we "Like" .... Seriously ? No Thanks, I'll pass... Jim
  8. What"s the point in entering a contest where if I am judged good enough to receive the same ol award. BORING!!! You may not care about what awards look like but I don't need a bunch of generic cheap awards sitting in my case that I can't tell one from the other and when they were awarded. When we did medallion's in 2018 we and a small handful left over and thank goodness we did because we had to replace 12 that were stolen off the tables they were so popular. Vegas had more models on the tables than we did so I would venture to say they probably had less awards left over if any then we did in 18. Your arguments about it being a win at all cost are hype. And you haven't answered my question about what qualifies someone to "GRADE" my model. Are they an expert or something? You don't need that qualification now because judges are comparing flaws from one model to another and again not picking out what they like or inspires them like happens in Open/GSB. Also who is going to store these generic awards and haul them around from year to year? DAK you stated> Somewhere along the line that concept got perverted into this Win At All Costs, "You ain't a 'real' modeler until you win at the National Convention", vision that far too many modelers these days hold in their noggins. Where do you get off making that assumption? That's nothing but hype to push your agenda. I see this argument being made all the time and NEVER see it. Maybe, just maybe because it is just like the premoridial days of IPMS where we get together and have a friendly competition. Jim Clar
  9. Gee that's the one thing that makes each hosts unique to their show, the awards. You start handing out cheap generic awards then what's the point? As it is now we have 196 categories splits included plus 5 ad hoc contest wide awards for a total of 201 for a grand total of 603 awards.Thats a fixed number. Anything else makes it damned hard to plan for and how do you limit what gets what if you do anything else? You have no number to work off of. I would rather have judges nit picking then picking what they "like" .My question is how am I as a builder supposed to know what a judge likes and which judge will I get to look at my model, i'll need to know this so I can build to what they like so as to be judged fairly. See you can't do that and be fair. The more Objective you are judging the better as it takes bias out of the equation. I also say that's why the lady holding the scales is blindfolded. That's why I tell my guy's it's not about what you like, it's about what's on the table and what errors you find so that you can quantify your rankings .I would much rather be ranked against my peers than to be given a grade by someone who likes or dislikes my model. And what qualifies that person to give that grade,that opinion. Judging is much different than grading. Also more times than not 1st place jumps out at you and it's the placement from 2nd and 3rd or two contesting 3rd place that's a chore.One year (OKC) we spent alot of time trying to decide on 3rd since all the rest entrants had big issues. This year I had a team tell me every single model save for first place had basic alignment issues in their gear. So how is it that all of these models need recognition when most are having real issues? And finally we want to "grow" the society, we want more and more models on tables. We had over 3k in Vegas, we're pretty damned successful as it is, why do we want to mess with success ? We're quickly getting to the point where we won't be able to handle the job of judging. And everyone with all their suggestions need to remember and consider the judges volunteering their time. Push to hard for drastic changes and you'll loose the judges. Then what happens? do you have a reserve pool of 250 judges sitting around that I don't know about and if so why aren't we using them now? Jim Clark NCC/ Head Aircraft judge
  10. How so James ?, all we are doing getting things were they belong, IE oob without instructions.We are also making room, since alot of categories are very cramped. But I'm not sure what you are referring to by Prejudice ? Jim
  11. I would wager 98% of modelers who put a model on a contest table (any contest table, not just IPMS) never bother to read the rules in the first place. Brother, you and I will agree on that one! Jim
  12. Ralph Well to call an open system exhibition a contest is also Folly. I would rather Lose (if you want to call it that) to a modeler who has a better executed model than to be graded by a judge finding me lacking in finesse. Jim
  13. That will be a tall task Ed, and it was in Chattanooga 😉 And I agree. I listened to the Sprue cutters union podcast last night where they interviewed Robert Crombeecke who heads up Scale model challenge in Holland. They talked extensively about the open system. They complained about IPMS being nit picky. But then turned around and said that he personally didn't award a model because he "felt" it lacked "finesse". Now if we're nit picky I'll take that.Because I would much rather defend a position with a fact that I can point to then to tell an entrant their entry lacked finesse. What is finesse? how do I execute finesse and how do ALL judges apply this finesse requirement equally? The Answer is you don't. What all this boils down to is judges picking what they like, well go to the state fair pie bake off if you want that. If it has enough fancy weathering and lipstick then to heck with everything else. IPMS gets branded with the lable of its all about construction. Well its not but we certainly start there in our evaluations because if you can't get the basics correct then who cares about the "art" of applying lipstick. You have to prepare the canvas and if you have problems at the start then you're setting yourself up to fall short. Now if we are all labeled as it's only construction in a 1,2,3 contest then why does fancy weathering and paint, (which comes after construction) override the basics? Is it assumed that basics aren't important or that we all have them covered ? Here is a question, Why do so many modelers when talking about modeling say "Now on to the fun stuff, painting and weathering " sounds to me like they don't enjoy the whole process and rush construction to get to the fun part. That's my one main complaint with the open system, it's all about the paint finish and how it can override basics. To me if you can't get the basics completed then you havn't finished your model. That and picking favorites. Finding finesse and inspiration is NOT judging . Judging is applying a set of rules to each model finding the nits and ranking those nits because there is no such thing as a problem free model. It's quantifiable, finesse is not. At one time I was open to hearing more about the open system, but the more I hear the more I do not like it. If the open system I have to inspire a judge with finesse then how do I do that? at least as it is now I and everyone else knows what is expected. And yet another question who died and made these judges experts in finesse? over in SMC they invite their judges, talk about an exclusive cabal , you want home cooking? do this and you'll have it. "Hey this is my buddy's model , he is good and deserves a gold, and after all he's met the gold standard at the regional so we really have to rubber stamp this anyways" Do we all really want that? My last question is this , when will the big paint manufacturers start bottling Bronze,Silver and Gold bottles of Finesse? You all will need these in the open system . That or a friend that's a judge, or insider info as to what meets the finesse criteria. Jim
  14. Quite possibly, but I know I'm not alone. It's a big gamble to take. And when you say they "just like the Nats" but at what cost? . To totally revamp one main aspect of the convention changes the whole national ,would they "just like the Nats " after that? Jim
  15. David You'll never get a true sense because as you say, everyone would have to respond. And not everyone will. We had 8 to 9 hundred respond to the survey which is slightly more than the registered number for this year's nats "before cancelations". So extrapolate that out and the ones who responded are (Probably) the ones who attend the Nats. The core of people affected by this , who attend the Nats have spoken and are statically split. I still maintain if IPMS goes to the open system ( Via membership vote to amend the constitution to replace the word contest with exposition "Since it's not a contest anymore" or e-board mandate, yes! it could happen ) IPMS runs the very real risk of losing half the attendees to the nats. Then the question becomes will the new open system bring in enough new members to replace that half they lost and them some? Because that's the only way IPMS gains in this scenario. Jim
  16. DAK All you are asking for is that Dio's be placed where they can be seen better. What about everyone else? It seems to me that you're wanting your favorite front and center at all times with power allowances no matter the cost. Did you know that if power is brought out into the contest room this year for your front and center Dio displays that it will cost the local and thus IPMS 1k per drop ?. When the time comes that you actually plan a national contest then you will really have an idea what all is involved. Everyone wants their respective class up front, Jr's to promote the hobby, Display only's to promote only displaying models as they do in Europe, Now Dio's because Dio's are disrespected along a wall "That has only happened 2 times in 15 years" and then there is the Aircraft are always treated better and have a favored status. Man I have to laugh. Most times we are put in the back of the room because of this misconception that we are favored. In Chattanooga we were in the back, but guess what we had 1 third of the total entries. We're not favored but we are the most popularly attended Class. Big difference.. So again since 06 you have had it your way sans two different times and that's not good enough? At the end of the day it's up to the local hosts to manage the room as best they can with all the factors they have to juggle. Jim
  17. Pete Was that at the National level because I went back and looked and the last time there was a civilian vehicle class at the Nats was 92 from 93 on class 5 has been called Automotive. James Change for the sake of change is pointless. You may "Feel" a change is better, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Jim
  18. DAK Yes, there are out lets in the floors of many venues. That doesn't mean you can simply plug in. Sometimes power has to be turned onto those that are in the floor, sometimes the facility will state they have to have their electrician come in and plug in the extension cord. All of that cost IPMS money. in 2018 we had to pony up $35 for every single plug that went into an outlet. You get an entrant that brings 2 powered entries and you're now paying him to show his/her stuff. So much can be done with LED's these days that I don't see much demand for anything other than battery operated items. I'm getting ready to build a Warhammer Imperial knight that will have 4 flickering , 1 breathing/pulsing, 3 solid and one trailing row of LED's all powered off a 9 volt battery. Go check out evandesigne.com for more lighting ideas.. Jim
  19. Jim Your quote> I believe that AMPS allows for that same model to be modified and graded again. Therefore a Silver graded build could upgrade to Gold, or downgrade to Bronze, with modifications made to it. Talk about campaigning a model and trophy hounding... In the end you go to a game and expect to see that game. If the NFL changed to badminton I probably wouldn't be inclined to watch, "Hell I don't watch either" but the point remains what is being talked about is a monumental change . One that I believe has the potential to be catastrophically damaging. Which is why I say that those proponents of the open system need to go out on their own as the AMPS guys did. Why possibly ruin what we have. It would be more than just short term membership loss. Add in the vote there was only 1 more in favor of the open system. We're split, ok that should tell the open guys all they need to know that there may very well be enough of them to go form their own society. And I'm willing to bet they will come back to double dip like the AMPS guys do. So then I'll ask again, how bad are we really? Is there really a need to change when that happens? Jim
  20. Yes, along with my Ships, Armor, Cars and Bikes, hell even some Sci-fi. I do not participate in hypocrisy. And I don't need grades. The society as a whole is a big statement too as I see others, many others doing the same. We all have choices, it's just a shame that the whole applecart could get overturned based on supposed opinions. Why change something successful? it's only opinion that you would be changing for the better. Many don't think that way. So I'll ask again, why not do as AMPS did. Create another option for people who like getting graded. My hats to them and I wish them nothing but the best. If the open system is all that then go start another society . You can do what ever you want from the ground up. Go prove how wrong IPMS is in how they do things. As they say necessity is the mother of invention. So go out there and prove the necessity . Jim
  21. James And you provedmy point that don't run a hierarchical show system now, > Not sure I'm following you.... In an open system you really shouldn't have best of's or a Best in show since now you're back to a competition amongst grade earners. I thought the idea was to get away from competition, to award all deserving models? I wouldn't think any models in GSB would be competing for Best of's since again you don't have a competition anymore. An open system is once again NOT a competition it's a grading system and to call it otherwise is very misleading. Unless you want it to be hypocritical with competition amongst Gold winners. It's one way or the other, pick one. If the Open standard has been met at a regional or local level then it has to be handed out at the national level again because the standard/grade for that level of award has been met and it's hypocritical do do otherwise. A grade is a grade for an individual model. The only difference being the judges looking at it and if they are doing their jobs correctly then it's over and done. Local gets a gold then it has to be rubber stamped at the regional/national level, do you really want that? There is no difference between a gold at a local or a national except wording on the plaque. I have to say if we ever go to this format then I'm done with IPMS. I'll just pay my $10 GA, walk the vendor room and the contest room for one day and go home. I'm not about getting graded, I did that back in school a looong time ago. I'm also not about participating in a hypocritical system which this would be if you have golds then "competing" for something else. Come to think of it I'll also save some $$ buy not paying membership dues, convention fees. I have to ask, how does that help the already successful society and convention we have now? For this scheme to be successful you would need to replace all those who left just to break even THEN get even more to "Grow" the society. I've only heard about growing the society I haven't heard about replacing those who will leave. It's a BIG assumption to think everyone will stay if a change is made. And if you want to take the vote as a sample size then you'll lose half. In the end Is it worth it to lose half your membership to "Grow" the society? Jim
  22. James You are absolutely incorrect. A regional best of show may not place because something better showed up that given day, that's the point. It's all based on what shows up and compared to each other, hence direct competition. You can't simply collect your award since you and everyone else has no idea what will show up. In an open system you apply the standard ,if you receive a grade then logic dictates you can't receive anything other than that since it has been graded. If you start giving Silvers to past gold winners then hypocrisy sets in especially using the same standard. That's the rub, You can apply a standard to models to rank them as we do now and get different results all based on what shows up, it becomes and entirely different animal when you do it on an individual basis. You want to see some complaining?, just implement this open system and when you get gold awarded models getting silver or lower using the same standard the bitching will start in earnest. If complaining happens now at least you can say something better showed up and your BOS at a regional doesn't mean anything. Jim
  23. James In an open system all the entrants are graded against a standard not judged against each other using a standard. So it is not a contest. And no one has yet to answer my question about getting an award at a lower level local or regional event using said standard thus in reality automatically qualifying them to receive the same level award at a national. Walk in and collect your award.... Jim
  24. James, Add in 6. A National Model Contest will be conducted by the Host Chapter at each Convention with appropriate judges and trophies provided by the national organization. Key word in all 3 bullet points 1,6 and 7 is "Contest". The Open system is again NOT a contest so a change would have to be made to the constitution. Which I would assume would have to go before the membership. Now if the NCC has the power to declare what it will be then I assume it would come down to a slug fest between the eboard and the NCC. Would the Eboard want to force out the NCC then how will that look to the membership half of which may support the NCC and the contest system? . Do the open system proponents really want to go nuclear ? That's why I say Open system proponents should do as AMPS did. Form their own society, why change ours? That way they can also do like the AMPS guys and double dip by going to their convention and the IPMS convention. I find it amusing that our system is so bad that another way of doing things has to be invented but those very same people come back and enjoy both. I'll agree with you in that having both in one room may make things even more confusing especially for newcomers to the show. Jim
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