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Everything posted by JClark

  1. How so James ?, all we are doing getting things were they belong, IE oob without instructions.We are also making room, since alot of categories are very cramped. But I'm not sure what you are referring to by Prejudice ? Jim
  2. I would wager 98% of modelers who put a model on a contest table (any contest table, not just IPMS) never bother to read the rules in the first place. Brother, you and I will agree on that one! Jim
  3. Ralph Well to call an open system exhibition a contest is also Folly. I would rather Lose (if you want to call it that) to a modeler who has a better executed model than to be graded by a judge finding me lacking in finesse. Jim
  4. That will be a tall task Ed, and it was in Chattanooga 😉 And I agree. I listened to the Sprue cutters union podcast last night where they interviewed Robert Crombeecke who heads up Scale model challenge in Holland. They talked extensively about the open system. They complained about IPMS being nit picky. But then turned around and said that he personally didn't award a model because he "felt" it lacked "finesse". Now if we're nit picky I'll take that.Because I would much rather defend a position with a fact that I can point to then to tell an entrant their entry lacked finesse. What is finesse? how do I execute finesse and how do ALL judges apply this finesse requirement equally? The Answer is you don't. What all this boils down to is judges picking what they like, well go to the state fair pie bake off if you want that. If it has enough fancy weathering and lipstick then to heck with everything else. IPMS gets branded with the lable of its all about construction. Well its not but we certainly start there in our evaluations because if you can't get the basics correct then who cares about the "art" of applying lipstick. You have to prepare the canvas and if you have problems at the start then you're setting yourself up to fall short. Now if we are all labeled as it's only construction in a 1,2,3 contest then why does fancy weathering and paint, (which comes after construction) override the basics? Is it assumed that basics aren't important or that we all have them covered ? Here is a question, Why do so many modelers when talking about modeling say "Now on to the fun stuff, painting and weathering " sounds to me like they don't enjoy the whole process and rush construction to get to the fun part. That's my one main complaint with the open system, it's all about the paint finish and how it can override basics. To me if you can't get the basics completed then you havn't finished your model. That and picking favorites. Finding finesse and inspiration is NOT judging . Judging is applying a set of rules to each model finding the nits and ranking those nits because there is no such thing as a problem free model. It's quantifiable, finesse is not. At one time I was open to hearing more about the open system, but the more I hear the more I do not like it. If the open system I have to inspire a judge with finesse then how do I do that? at least as it is now I and everyone else knows what is expected. And yet another question who died and made these judges experts in finesse? over in SMC they invite their judges, talk about an exclusive cabal , you want home cooking? do this and you'll have it. "Hey this is my buddy's model , he is good and deserves a gold, and after all he's met the gold standard at the regional so we really have to rubber stamp this anyways" Do we all really want that? My last question is this , when will the big paint manufacturers start bottling Bronze,Silver and Gold bottles of Finesse? You all will need these in the open system . That or a friend that's a judge, or insider info as to what meets the finesse criteria. Jim
  5. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
  6. Quite possibly, but I know I'm not alone. It's a big gamble to take. And when you say they "just like the Nats" but at what cost? . To totally revamp one main aspect of the convention changes the whole national ,would they "just like the Nats " after that? Jim
  7. David You'll never get a true sense because as you say, everyone would have to respond. And not everyone will. We had 8 to 9 hundred respond to the survey which is slightly more than the registered number for this year's nats "before cancelations". So extrapolate that out and the ones who responded are (Probably) the ones who attend the Nats. The core of people affected by this , who attend the Nats have spoken and are statically split. I still maintain if IPMS goes to the open system ( Via membership vote to amend the constitution to replace the word contest with exposition "Since it's not a contest anymore" or e-board mandate, yes! it could happen ) IPMS runs the very real risk of losing half the attendees to the nats. Then the question becomes will the new open system bring in enough new members to replace that half they lost and them some? Because that's the only way IPMS gains in this scenario. Jim
  8. DAK All you are asking for is that Dio's be placed where they can be seen better. What about everyone else? It seems to me that you're wanting your favorite front and center at all times with power allowances no matter the cost. Did you know that if power is brought out into the contest room this year for your front and center Dio displays that it will cost the local and thus IPMS 1k per drop ?. When the time comes that you actually plan a national contest then you will really have an idea what all is involved. Everyone wants their respective class up front, Jr's to promote the hobby, Display only's to promote only displaying models as they do in Europe, Now Dio's because Dio's are disrespected along a wall "That has only happened 2 times in 15 years" and then there is the Aircraft are always treated better and have a favored status. Man I have to laugh. Most times we are put in the back of the room because of this misconception that we are favored. In Chattanooga we were in the back, but guess what we had 1 third of the total entries. We're not favored but we are the most popularly attended Class. Big difference.. So again since 06 you have had it your way sans two different times and that's not good enough? At the end of the day it's up to the local hosts to manage the room as best they can with all the factors they have to juggle. Jim
  9. Pete Was that at the National level because I went back and looked and the last time there was a civilian vehicle class at the Nats was 92 from 93 on class 5 has been called Automotive. James Change for the sake of change is pointless. You may "Feel" a change is better, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Jim
  10. DAK Yes, there are out lets in the floors of many venues. That doesn't mean you can simply plug in. Sometimes power has to be turned onto those that are in the floor, sometimes the facility will state they have to have their electrician come in and plug in the extension cord. All of that cost IPMS money. in 2018 we had to pony up $35 for every single plug that went into an outlet. You get an entrant that brings 2 powered entries and you're now paying him to show his/her stuff. So much can be done with LED's these days that I don't see much demand for anything other than battery operated items. I'm getting ready to build a Warhammer Imperial knight that will have 4 flickering , 1 breathing/pulsing, 3 solid and one trailing row of LED's all powered off a 9 volt battery. Go check out evandesigne.com for more lighting ideas.. Jim
  11. Jim Your quote> I believe that AMPS allows for that same model to be modified and graded again. Therefore a Silver graded build could upgrade to Gold, or downgrade to Bronze, with modifications made to it. Talk about campaigning a model and trophy hounding... In the end you go to a game and expect to see that game. If the NFL changed to badminton I probably wouldn't be inclined to watch, "Hell I don't watch either" but the point remains what is being talked about is a monumental change . One that I believe has the potential to be catastrophically damaging. Which is why I say that those proponents of the open system need to go out on their own as the AMPS guys did. Why possibly ruin what we have. It would be more than just short term membership loss. Add in the vote there was only 1 more in favor of the open system. We're split, ok that should tell the open guys all they need to know that there may very well be enough of them to go form their own society. And I'm willing to bet they will come back to double dip like the AMPS guys do. So then I'll ask again, how bad are we really? Is there really a need to change when that happens? Jim
  12. Yes, along with my Ships, Armor, Cars and Bikes, hell even some Sci-fi. I do not participate in hypocrisy. And I don't need grades. The society as a whole is a big statement too as I see others, many others doing the same. We all have choices, it's just a shame that the whole applecart could get overturned based on supposed opinions. Why change something successful? it's only opinion that you would be changing for the better. Many don't think that way. So I'll ask again, why not do as AMPS did. Create another option for people who like getting graded. My hats to them and I wish them nothing but the best. If the open system is all that then go start another society . You can do what ever you want from the ground up. Go prove how wrong IPMS is in how they do things. As they say necessity is the mother of invention. So go out there and prove the necessity . Jim
  13. James And you provedmy point that don't run a hierarchical show system now, > Not sure I'm following you.... In an open system you really shouldn't have best of's or a Best in show since now you're back to a competition amongst grade earners. I thought the idea was to get away from competition, to award all deserving models? I wouldn't think any models in GSB would be competing for Best of's since again you don't have a competition anymore. An open system is once again NOT a competition it's a grading system and to call it otherwise is very misleading. Unless you want it to be hypocritical with competition amongst Gold winners. It's one way or the other, pick one. If the Open standard has been met at a regional or local level then it has to be handed out at the national level again because the standard/grade for that level of award has been met and it's hypocritical do do otherwise. A grade is a grade for an individual model. The only difference being the judges looking at it and if they are doing their jobs correctly then it's over and done. Local gets a gold then it has to be rubber stamped at the regional/national level, do you really want that? There is no difference between a gold at a local or a national except wording on the plaque. I have to say if we ever go to this format then I'm done with IPMS. I'll just pay my $10 GA, walk the vendor room and the contest room for one day and go home. I'm not about getting graded, I did that back in school a looong time ago. I'm also not about participating in a hypocritical system which this would be if you have golds then "competing" for something else. Come to think of it I'll also save some $$ buy not paying membership dues, convention fees. I have to ask, how does that help the already successful society and convention we have now? For this scheme to be successful you would need to replace all those who left just to break even THEN get even more to "Grow" the society. I've only heard about growing the society I haven't heard about replacing those who will leave. It's a BIG assumption to think everyone will stay if a change is made. And if you want to take the vote as a sample size then you'll lose half. In the end Is it worth it to lose half your membership to "Grow" the society? Jim
  14. James You are absolutely incorrect. A regional best of show may not place because something better showed up that given day, that's the point. It's all based on what shows up and compared to each other, hence direct competition. You can't simply collect your award since you and everyone else has no idea what will show up. In an open system you apply the standard ,if you receive a grade then logic dictates you can't receive anything other than that since it has been graded. If you start giving Silvers to past gold winners then hypocrisy sets in especially using the same standard. That's the rub, You can apply a standard to models to rank them as we do now and get different results all based on what shows up, it becomes and entirely different animal when you do it on an individual basis. You want to see some complaining?, just implement this open system and when you get gold awarded models getting silver or lower using the same standard the bitching will start in earnest. If complaining happens now at least you can say something better showed up and your BOS at a regional doesn't mean anything. Jim
  15. James In an open system all the entrants are graded against a standard not judged against each other using a standard. So it is not a contest. And no one has yet to answer my question about getting an award at a lower level local or regional event using said standard thus in reality automatically qualifying them to receive the same level award at a national. Walk in and collect your award.... Jim
  16. James, Add in 6. A National Model Contest will be conducted by the Host Chapter at each Convention with appropriate judges and trophies provided by the national organization. Key word in all 3 bullet points 1,6 and 7 is "Contest". The Open system is again NOT a contest so a change would have to be made to the constitution. Which I would assume would have to go before the membership. Now if the NCC has the power to declare what it will be then I assume it would come down to a slug fest between the eboard and the NCC. Would the Eboard want to force out the NCC then how will that look to the membership half of which may support the NCC and the contest system? . Do the open system proponents really want to go nuclear ? That's why I say Open system proponents should do as AMPS did. Form their own society, why change ours? That way they can also do like the AMPS guys and double dip by going to their convention and the IPMS convention. I find it amusing that our system is so bad that another way of doing things has to be invented but those very same people come back and enjoy both. I'll agree with you in that having both in one room may make things even more confusing especially for newcomers to the show. Jim
  17. My question is this, If a change is proposed then I would think it would have to go before the membership since it would require an amendment to the constitution. We would be changing from our annual Convention with a "Contest" to an exposition since the open system is NOT a contest. Then factor in the fallout and the real risk of alienating a big percentage of the membership. Also factor in how the new grading would be accomplished and the fact that AMPS says their system can't be incorporated into a show of the Nationals size. BUT if you have half the membership leave then I guess it could be accomplished. Then what will the AMPS guys do that also attend our shows ? (That has always struck me as funny since AMPS was created out of supposed necessity because they didn't like our system) Now they will have two shows in their system of grading which strikes me as a bit redundant. My main beef with the open system at the national level is this. When/If the new standard is written then it applies to all local, regional and the National expositions as is done now. Thus meaning if an entrant wins an award at the local or regional level, then they have now met the IPMS standard for that level of award/grade. All they have have to do is show up at a national and collect another award of the same ranking/rating. Now that would certainly speed up the grading process, simply check in the box that it won X award at a local/regional level and collect your national award. If a team tries to say NO it only gets a silver here then all then entrant has to say is "I met the IPMS standard, why am I being downgraded on the same standard?" That's the beauty of how we do it now, anything can win on any given day based on what shows up. Jim
  18. Dak This will be my last reply on this. Ok, I went back and looked at my convention issues all the way back to 06 (14 conventions) . There were only 2 years that Dio's were up against a wall, 07 and 19. There was bleed over from the main isles in 12 and 13 to tables up against a wall. So to say dio's are always up against a wall or make it sound like Dio's are always pushed aside or relegated to poor viewing positions simply isn't true. MOST entries that are powered these days are done so with batteries. Very, very few are powered via plug in. I've seen more aircraft,cars and sci-fi that are under their own power more more than i have seen them powered via extension cords Especially these days compared to say 15 years or more ago. So in closing as the numbers have shown you're making suggestions' for an issue that doesn't exist. Jim
  19. Dak As we have talked about it may not be possible to always put dio's up front . Local chapters are at the mercy of the venues as to where power is required. You say putting everything that needs power in one spot. So now you are asking judges to pull entries out of their categories (Not just Dio's) to put in one spot. You could in theory have a low or high number in one spot from a multitude of categories. That makes judging very difficult since now judges who are looking at one category would now have to go look for something that "May" be in the powered section? It becomes a logistical nightmare for judging. Its bad enough when we have to split out individual entries that don't physically fit into their categories as it is now, let alone add another caveat of power. Another consideration is where is the power drop in relation to the table layout? is it under the tables or is it in the middle of the isles? it may not be possible to always align table rows so that your power drops are under tables to avoid tripping hazards. You're not terrifying the villagers but there is alot to consider when making these kind of requests. I am sure most chapters who do host the convention/contest do they best they can with what they have to work with taking into consideration all aspects. Especially the chapters that have done it multiple times. Jim
  20. DAK Ok, changes to make people like dioramas more? You speak of 40 plus years of experience, ok well 40 years ago the society was already 17 years old. Things had been set motion. Sure things evelove and I believe that dioramas are a direct result of that evolution but you have to admit they weren't very popular in the begining.I get your point and they are now included but it's like you're wanting special treatment for them. Re-numbering the classes? mandating they always be front and center at National conventions thus possibly pushing out others favorites? What exactly do you propose? At the end of the day I do believe we do not want to go down a path of perfrerential treatment for any category. And if I am understanding you correctly this is what you have in mind? Jim
  21. Dak, Dioramas are NOT in the Misc Class. They have their own separate class. So to try and say they are less important or looked upon in a lesser degree because they are lumped in with Misc would be an incorrect assumption. We all have our personal preferences, and interests in the contest room . I like it all but you have to acknowledge some don't and will passover whatever dosnt flip their switch. So to say (your) personal favorites are being disrespected ( my inteupetation of what you're saying) for me is a bit of a stretch solely based on where they may be located in a contest room based on numerous factors which we have allready discussed . In the end why do some care where models are placed? go in and enjoy all of them. I would say don't read to much into class placement since circumstances may dictate otherwise.. Jim
  22. James Not every national show is set up the same. Here in 2018 Armor and aircraft were in the back just like they were in Chattanooga, and Columbus in 15. When I set the room up for 2018 I had to take into account a multitude of issues. Jr's up front, along with display only as we were emphasizing those for the whole year leading up to the show. Then I had to put ships up front due to their size as I didn't want guys lugging entries a long ways, same with Dioramas, those can get big to but then i also had to take into account where the power was. Luckily the drop was in the floor to the front but we only had 1 entry that required it. The problem also is you never know what is going to show up. I allotted quite a bit of room for 1/350th ships in 2018 and I think we had 2/3 show up. So you just don't know. You have to estimate the amount and types of entries that will show and how do you allocate table space for them. 2 things are fairly certain, Aircraft and armor are popular, they just are so you have to allocate more room, all the rest you simply have no idea what will show up. The local guys have to work with what they have and what the facility will allow. So to say it's a #100 through #800 layout really isn't how it's done or how I've seen it done for a few years at least. Jim
  23. Gil We've had our share of discussions over the years. But I have to say this paragraph really floored me > Where'd I get the idea the NCC was going to require masks for judging? Hmmmm....that would be the following sentence in the March/April Journal, and I QUOTE: "In addition, all judges should plan on being required to wear masks (bring your own- don't assume the host chapter will be providing 200-plus masks!)..... UNQUOTE.... There is NO modifying sentence after that stating, or even implying, that that policy might be modified by show time. No, I don't think I misunderstood what you wrote in the Journal. And yes, my asking for a TIMELY update to that policy announcement in the Journal, in a COMPLETELY civil and forthright manner, is also well within the bounds of being an IPMS Judge. You can try to backtrack what you wrote, but it's IN PRINT. And why didn't I simply email you directly? Because your policy decisions SHOULD be made PUBLIC here too; not just in the Journal, and not passed on by "word of mouth". YOU are the official, not me! In your first post you completely omitted the words (Plan on) And now you are only emphasizing the word (Required) after you put (plan on) back in the sentence. Quit spinning...The original statement can't be any more clearer so why would Mark have to make any updated stance in relation to this matter ?. He closed the door when he said Plan on...as he stated above. He never said he would outright require them but be ready to just in case by Planning on......My old training officer used to say, think like a firemen, always think 3 steps ahead. Do you really need an update from IPMS, the NCC or E-board on weather (You) should take care of you? think ahead! As for the GSB debate another head scratcher. You and others have been talking about this since at least 04. Now you have a chance to formally respond (after as you have said it needs to be proven at the local and regional level) so why on earth do you not respond with information requested by the NCC. This is what you have been waiting and asking for and NOW you decide to not participate, after your side gets a 1 to 2 vote margin of victory in a poll asking the memberships choice of either system. That's why the NCC wanted more information since the margin was so close, lets see what the rest of the country does by sending out this questionnaire. Now is your chance to show what you and other GSB shows do and nothing for 9 months because you're tired of running into brick walls? I would say the wall is down and people are waiting for information. And finally as to watching these forums. You are correct in that at least I have not been in here recently. But as only one member of the NCC I can't speak for everyone on that committee. I can really only answer questions about the class (Aircraft) that I oversee and judging questions in general which you and I have gone around and around on in the past. So to think a member of the NCC can come in here and offer opinion representing the whole group can't happen. The most effective way to communicate with the NCC is to email the NCC. Not post on a discussion group waiting for an answer to your question regardless of how relevant you may feel it is to the general membership. Now if you want to talk aircraft judging/categories, recommendations for said categories and such then I'm all ears. And yes I will try to be more available here on the forums ... If you or anyone else wants to email me with questions here ya go > hornet78@cox.net Hell I 'll even go ya one better and Email back my cell phone if you want to chat... Jim Clark #33452
  24. Wow I apologize for missing this thread and not checking the forum sooner. As Ed Grune mentioned in regards to the aircraft class, I have made some suggestions to the Head judge regarding OOB. Weather they are implemented or not is up to Mark P. I have personal feelings on OOB, but as a Class head judge I can't let those interfere with the administration of our rules in regards to OOB. As for now it's here due to it's popularity and participation. I Agree, the OOB rules are clear as mud and could do with some house keeping hence the suggestions to Head Judge. Hopefully some clarification will come for the 2021 nats "If it's held". And more importantly if they are not implemented (for 2021) then we will have a chance to discuss my ideas in detail and in person at the NCC meeting which may further the understanding of my intent. As for Decals. Some have mentioned that for OOB to be true you have to use the kit decals. Well yes but the reason aftermarket decals are allowed is due to the fact that decals can degrade over time making them unusable. So why penalize the entrant over something beyond their control? The new Quinta studios offering will be addressed and not allowed in OOB. Jim
  25. And there you have it sports fans. Quicker than you expected. Hats off to the San Marcos crew and this gives you time to recoup for Aug 2nd/5th 2023. Jim
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