Dakimbrell
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Posts posted by Dakimbrell
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PeteJ,
How does one judge creativity? How does one quantify creativity? Particularly when judging a real subject? Are you saying a gaping seam down the fuselage should be ignored in favor of a more "creative" work? (This is exactly what the AMSO people believe.) How is a stand alone 1/48th BOB Spitfire to be judged on creativity? Walking those same rows of contest tables, I see a lot of creativity in subject matter, display, level of detail, particularly the scratch and scifi categories. Is not choosing a highly technical subject and building it creative? I certainly think so.
You are wrong that it doesn't come into play in the Judging. In the final stages, once you have checked all the basic stuff, it comes down to what the judges like and creativity certainly comes into play. At least with the teams I have worked with, over the years. One model (not a diorama) did very well because of a scale banana peel on the model. I certainly found it creative twist, but the decision was founded on solid craftmanship.
Additionally, I am not 'judging" the AMSO group solely on one person. I've met many, attended a few of their meetings, and heard them actually slander my club OHMS, IPMS Metro, and IPMS as a whole.. In one case, they took a copy of the OHMS newsletter (put out as promotion) and wrote nasty comments in it. Rusty White can back up much of what I have said. As I wrote, I was merely wondering if other groups around the country have encountered similar anti-IPMS groups. I was not trying to offer judgement of their people or philosophy, only whether other such groups exist.
On a personal note, I am in basic agreement with Nick.
Dak
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PeteJ,
I started this thread not as criticism, but as curiosity if others have encountered such groups. In my description of the AMSO group, I have very charitable of them. They are not really that creative, but merely use it as a an excuse to justify poor craftsmanship. I realize everyone builds models for their own reasons and we have several in both the local IPMS chapters who only build for themselves. They have no interests in contests, nor do they try to build at a high competitive level. I like them and have great respect for them for they accept both complements and suggestions with good grace. You can be extremely creative and be a good craftsman, I have seen that constantly at the Nationals.
The man I described in the earlier post hardly ever built a model, but from day one was constantly pestering people to trade stuff with him. And he kept at it until I told him to leave me the F alone. This was not a difference in how to build, but about common courtesy. One was posting racist remarks on the internet and another was a drunk constantly stinking of beer.
I would disagree that creativity doesn't win or isn't considered, particularly in the final stages of judging. My experience says those who feel the creativity of their model is over looked, are just trying to rationalize their failure, but it is true different groups see "good craftsmanship" differently.
These two photos from OHMS show both creativity and good craftsmanship, IMO. That's Manta Ray Charles, by the way.
Dak
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Please keep in mind, my post was not intended to debate the merits of OOB, but as an observation that the state of model kits seems to be changing the nature of the OOB concept. When OOB categories were started in the early eighties, there were only two 1/35th Panther kits and both were shells with vinyl tracks. Both had holes in the bottom for motorized parts. On the Tamiya kit, you could see through the engine deck grills to the tracks. To do any version other than the kit, you had no choice but to start scratch building and modifications.
Today, you can model virtually any version of the Panther, with or without zimmerit and have a partial to full interior, out of the box. Times have changed. However, it is also true, a simple model done well can beat a complexed model done poorly.
Dak
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This AMSO group doesn't care for basic craftsmanship. Seams, burrs, glue spots and misaligned parts abound on many of their models. Accuracy...technical or historic... is totally unimportant for most of them. Several have expressed the opinion awards should be based on imagination and creativity, rather than basic skills. This is one of the reasons they get upset with IPMS.
While I try to make my models accurate, I have long ago quit worrying about strict accuracy it any more than I worry about shade of color. There are a lot of variables. (For example, I have a picture of a German soldier wearing a plaid shirt in the field.)
FYI, I was not looking for advice on how to deal with them, but whether curious if others have encountered such "heretics". Whether there were more around the country, or just some aberration here in Oklahoma. Personally, I think there is something in the water, here that makes them crazy. LOL
Dak
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Nick, Time of the year is immaterial. Actually, I think there are extremely few cheats at an IPMS contest. But my remarks are merely observations and that you refer to it as a "can of worms" seems a clear indicator there may be more serious problems than I thought. Personally, I don't give a lead zeppelin about the category, except.....as I imply… that one day it may be hard to tell what the difference between OOB and everything else.
Dak
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As I looked at my 1/35th Takom Panther tank, several things occurred to me...….
First, over the past twenty-five years, I have been building more models basically from the box. This is not out of laziness, but simply because the kits have improved and I don't need to add lots of detail like it was in the late seventies. Long past are the days of digging through the discarded parts box or hoarding railroad detail parts for that "special" project.
Next was that these newer generation of models have extremely complexed instruction sheets and no one would have time.... at a contest... to carefully go through and see if the contestant conformed to the instructions and did not add a few parts.
Third, even with a much simpler kit, how would the judges KNOW that the contestant had not substituted aftermarket parts to replace kit parts. Things like wheel/tires, weapons, exhausts, etc. Could you tell if the aircraft seat was the kit part or aftermarket without being personally familiar with the kit. Of course, a second model of the same kit might be a give-a-way.
Last, maybe OOB has seen it's day. I know it is popular, but as newer kits come along it stands to reason it will become more and more difficult to tell the difference in the OOB and regular categories.
Thoughts?
Dak
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The AFVCLUB kit with figures from Alpine, Stalingrad, Bravo6, and MiniArt. I think the DML 251 is a better kit.
Dak
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As far as I have been able to determine, none of this AMSO group has ever been a member of IPMS. And yes, several of them are poor builders who make no effort to improve. One guy came to our OHMS meeting for a while and kept wanting to trade stuff. He literally offered crap and wanted better stuff. One night he followed me all the way to my car offering a bag of worthless yellowed decals for a DML Panzer II. I finally had to tell him...rudely... he had nothing I wanted. That's when he quit coming to our meeting.
We have two IPMS chapters in OKC and one in Tulsa. The AMSO group could never afford the charter fee. They are a pretty sad group. I was mainly wondering if anyone has run into other similar groups.
Dak
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Here in central Oklahoma, there is a group called the Alternative Modelers Society of Oklahoma.....AMSO.... and they HATE IPMS. They have been around about fifteen years or so and feel:
- IPMS puts too much emphasis on craftsmanship. (Apparently, filling seams is over rated.)
- IPMS ignores/hates creative models.
- It's unfair for them to compete with people who can afford better kits. ( Some will never buy a Tamiya kit, but will spend a hundred bucks at the flea market buying old Heller kits.)
Two of the members were part of the local IPMS groups....OHMS and Metro....but left because they felt since they couldn't afford to go to the Nationals, the club should not sponsor a trophy package. Having talked to a few of them over the years, it is clear they know virtually nothing about IPMS.
I just wondered if anyone has encountered other groups like that around the country.
Dak
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Preiser makes some 1/24th nude figures. Multipose, both male and female. Don't know who is carrying them.
Dak
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1/35th Stalingrad beach girl series. The accessories are mostly from Meng. All painted with enamels.
Dak
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Nuts planet bust. mostly done in enamels.
Dak
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Old figure I finally finished. Mostly painted with oils.
Dak
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A Macchi C.200 shot down by an LRDG patrol.
This is the pacific Coast kit and is really horrid. There is a HUGE gap at the wing roots and the landing gear has a rotten fit. The resin engine needs lots of detail work. D-Day figures.
Dak
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The AMT kit with Masterbox figures. Horrible kit, but nice figures. The bulldog is anatomically correct.
Dak
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The Takom kit is great! Frankly, one of the best fitting kits I have ever worked with. The cable is home made from 24 gauge wire. You'll need way more cable than comes in the kit. About 15ft.
Dak
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The Meng Ft-17 done as an abandoned vehicle in 1942. Alpine, Miniart, and New World figures.
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I was wondering when we can expect to see entry forms and such posted.
Dak
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I'm looking information on US Navy squadrons that operated the Sea Sprite in the mid-1970s.
Need help
Dak
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Sorry wouldn't load.
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The wheel is a 1/32 Mig-3 by Trumpeter.
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Static grass applied with the Grasstech flocker
re: Judging was: Haters group
in Ask the IPMS/USA
Posted
I have been entering contests for over fifty years and I have never seen anyone use a measuring device to judge a model except to determine if something was out of line....like one wing being higher than the other. For the past thirty-five or more years judging at various IPMS style contests, I have always been admonished not to worry about accuracy. And any question of accuracy would only come in the end when we were trying to separate first from second, etc. And then we were told to give the entrant the benefit of the doubt.
Given the IPMS system of judging models against others in a category, and not some set standard, putting calibers to a model seems pointless for a tiny measurement of a few millimeters.
Dak