Highlander
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Posts posted by Highlander
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Was in Knoxville for about a week last Fall ... just for recreation. Beautiful city. Wish I had thought of looking up a modeling club.
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On 2/2/2022 at 9:02 PM, jcorley said:
From the minutes:
"The board is open to proposals from all areas of the US to host the 2024 IPMS/USA National Convention. Hosting proposals can be put forth by individual chapters or regional "teams" with members from multiple chapters in key roles."
Does this mean there are no bidders? What exactly does it mean?
Yes, inquiring minds would like to know.
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Your work on the cameras and jacket is top notch.
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You might want to revisit your question in light of the demise of OOB and the introduction of BKB.
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Very well done. And an interesting subject.
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To research — to buy.
To build — perchance to enter: ay, there’s the rub!
For in that toil of construct, what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off to the Nats,
BKB must give us pause.Hey, this is fun. It is so fun, I demand a Shakespearean category ... which will have a BKB option. One can enter Shakespeare's original remains as BKB ... or embellish them with shrouds and pointy shoes and pen and quill, resin or PE ... as a regular entry. If you add Anne Hathaway, then it's a vignette. Include the Globe and its a diorama.
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Well done, sir, well done.
Now get you to the contest table, and tell the judges, let
the PE be an inch thick, to this finish it must
come; make them laugh at that seat belt.-
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4 hours ago, noelsmith said:
To be, or not to be? That is the question. ( William Shakespeare )
Is a kit with PE in the box, a not out of the box kit? That is also the question.
I think someone has opened Padora's Box rather than a kit box with this new category.
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"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And, by opposing, end them?” You know, as the quote continues, it becomes more apropos. I knew my undergrad degree in English Lit would come in handy sometime, somewhere.
The question might have been asked: "Is a kit with PE in the box, not a BKB kit?" In almost all cases, the answer would be, "Yes, it is not a BKB kit; it is a regular category kit."
As pointed out multiple times by multiple folks, the BKB concept is simple. But, this being IPMS, there has been an immediate reaction, boiling down to --"But I want to build it the way I want to build it". The reply is "Fine. Build it the way you want to build it. Then enter it into a regular category." The counter we hear is "But I don't want to enter it into a regular category; I want to enter it as a BKB. So, there should be a waiver to add/change/delete/modify/adjust the rules. These are my really good reasons: ________________"
In a serious vein, I think part of this reaction is (again, already pointed out) due to our history with OOB ... where the slope became slippery and some slid down it. I predict that appeals for exemptions from the BKB rules will continue in the hope that exemptions will again be granted. And they will continue until the BKB rules are enforced and become routine, or BKB is modified and becomes OOB Mk 2, or until BKB is eliminated.
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At the risk of a civics lesson, there is a difference between a representative and a direct democracy. In the case of IPMS, members vote for an E-board and the E-board represents them in making decisions. In a direct democracy, every little IPMS issue would be voted upon by the entire membership.
Ancient Athens had a direct democracy, where voting was a duty, and they had issues getting citizens to vote. Good luck in having IPMS members show up to vote on any issue, much less vote regularly.
Finally, there is the argument that there is a golden mean ... some issues should be voted on directly by the entire IPMS membership, and some should be handled by the E-board. However, who decides which issues are which and how direct votes would be handled when time is an issue?
The current system works, even if it doesn't work every time for every member.
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But I'm interested in re-hasing Testor's decision to discontinue their ranges. So, when Testor's ....
Sorry. Just wanted to be first.
Hope to see you in Omaha, Paul. And your RAF entries.
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19 minutes ago, JClark said:
... the Head judge came this>< close to loosing his home due to wild fires that ravaged his community ... it took some time to get his life back in order.
...life happens in this all volunteer society
..read the rules which I would wager most won't and then act all surprised when they get there.
Again -- commenting upon your post.
Elsewhere, I mentioned events in the background influencing the process to revise and publish each National's rules and categories. Evacuating your home and dealing with the consequences of an inferno is one such example.
Which leads to the trials and tribulations of participating in an all-volunteer society. Basically, volunteers aren't employees. And IPMS is a voluntary society, not a business. In general, the IPMS volunteers (thank God for our judges, at all levels) do as best as is reasonable, as fast as is reasonable. Failure to achieve perfection immediately is not, IMHO, a reasonable criticism. There are reasonable criticisms which can be addressed, discussed, and resolved civilly and over time.
Reading the rules? Reading the categories? Yes, I'd recommend it. Most do, a good number don't, and that leads to all sorts of issues.
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Very interesting subject. And very nice diorama.
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5 hours ago, JClark said:
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We have created a BKB category to try and save the spirit of the rule which is to build what came in the kit, and not a kit that has all the modern conveniences of resin, photoetch and associated aftermarket that's commonly available. If you read the first sentence in the new rule a lot of questions can be answered. ...
...people wondering what is acceptable and what's not. And why is that? Because entrants were allowed to add things ... which is it? You want to build OOB but still add things? ... Well if I can add seat belts and antenna then why not brake lines.
All BKB is trying to do is get back to the basics for those who want to build that way again...
...rules changes for the next convention have always come out around the beginning of the year. This is NOTHING new. ...
...We are having a 30 plus year argument and continual questions about what's allowed since no one can agree and constantly argue about "Why can't I add this if I can add that" ...
Jim
I appreciate your post. It directly addresses issues that led to the breakdown of OOB and points out the same issues have immediately reappeared with BKB. I'd like to comment on several portions of your post ... excerpted above.
First, yes, BKB is an attempt to return to the original intent of a simple build ... for those who want to build simply. It is really that straightforward.
Second, BKB is specifically defined as a category with limitations ... discussed in the rules in detail. There is clear language that no model has to be entered as a BKB ... it is the entrant's choice. Thus:
The model builder should note that entering a model in any Basic Kit Build category is their choice. Models in these categories have limitations applied to them that are not applied to entries in the rest of the categories.
If an entrant doesn't want limitations, not to worry. There are many regular classes that can be entered without BKB limitations. However, there are no categories that allow a BKB entry built to each individual modeler's individual druthers ... where one can add whatever they want, for whatever good reason they determine, and call it BKB.
Third, the timing of the release of the 2022 Nats Rules is dependent upon a good deal of effort and coordination and review which occurs behind the scenes. Which takes time. As you point out, the timing is normal. I do empathize with someone who has completed an entry which was up to OOB standards, but is not up to BKB requirements. The obvious option is to enter into a regular category, which, as you have pointed out, is competitive for a well-built OOB type model.
Fourth, the arguments to expand the limitations, previously, for OOB seem to be continuing for BKB. Perhaps some of the reaction is based upon a desire to again push the boundaries. The rules address this impulse:
The general BKB approach is to build what came in the kit box. In some cases, this may result in a perceived incomplete or inaccurate model. While prior guidelines for out-of-the-box were modified for exceptions/inclusions, the BKB approach will return to “what came in the kit box”. You are not required to make-up for any perceived kit deficiencies/inaccuracies based on detailing accessories.
Thus a standard of accuracy or completion is not applicable to BKB. And, again, an entrant can build to whatever level of accuracy he wants --- and enter into a regular category.
Thanks for you post. It helped clarify my thinking and understanding of BKB. I imagine that, over time, there will be some tweaking -- there always is.
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Yes. I've ordered from Hannant's several times. Because I can't get what I want from a US vendor. Shipping time is seldom an issue for me and I'll pay for shipping from the UK if I can get what I want. Pretty much like you.
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It appears to me that the definition of "kit" is contributing to this discussion. Is a kit all the stuff that is included in the box ... or is a kit the thing that is entered into a contest? The term "kit", as used by many modelers, can be applied to both. As in, "I'm going to buy a kit" and "I entered my kit this morning".
It also appears that it will take a while for entrants to move their thinking from the old OOB -- which includes the word "box" -- to the new BKB -- which addresses the build. BKB, IMHO, addresses the build, not the box.
Let's look at the obvious example. I have two kits (the things in two boxes). One is an Eduard Weekend Edition, the other an Eduard Profipack. The plastic in the two kits is exactly identical. Is anyone going to seriously argue that, if the two kits (built models) resulting from the two builds use only the identical plastic parts, then the Wekend Edititon is a BKB but the Profipack is not?
So, as Ed points out, if one doesn't build using disqualifying parts, then one has a BKB.
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Valid observation. Reading the rules is always a good idea.
It will probably take a couple of contests for the rules to shake out.
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Don't know how slippery the slope is. In any endeavor, there needs to be a final arbitrar when an ambiguity arises. It will take a couple of years for the new BKB category to become familiar to entrants.
I offer that the BKB category is a positive step away from the endless gaming of the old OOB rules.
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Good advice. And thanks for the persistence.
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Actually, there aren't any new OOB rules. The old OOB rules have been replaced by the new BKB rules.
I leave the question above to be answered by those more knowledgeable. My guess is "Yes" -- if you have a plastic part in a predominately plastic kit you can probably use it. So, if you have both a metal gun barrel and a plastic gun barrel in the kit, you can use the plastic barrel and enter as a BKB. The key, it appears, is building with a "single material". Questions, I wager, can be resolved using the instructions placed with one's BKB entry and by being addressed to the appropriate judge.
From the BKB rules:
Kits. ... the kit is constructed as a predominantly single-medium product. It can consist of an all-polystyrene kit, an all-resin kit, an all-photoetch kit, or any other ‘single’ material. Kits with various other materials included (e.g. cast-resin or 3D-resin detailing accessories, etched-metal detailing frets, turned-metal detailing parts, and other similar detailing parts) will not be permitted.
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All of which leads me back to my main concern. Who is out there working on a bid for 2024? 2025? There are usually rumors by this time in the convention cycle; I've heard none.
Another factor, I think, is the disappointed bidder. A chapter, or consortium of chapters, bids, fails, and says, "Never again." It has happened. The E-board has a delicate task trying to keep those folks interested and encouraging them to try again. In another of my hobbies, astronomy, our local club bid for and won the 2020 National Convention. We got considerable pressure to move up our bid to 2019 -- as no other club had bid. We steadfastly refused ... cause it was gonna be hard enough with two years lead time. Covid pushed the Convention to this year ... and pulling it off is in question.
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The 2021 Nats turned a 15% "profit"; not bad. 2016 turned 33%, much better.
At to Albuquerque hosting a Nats, one would need to query the older, bigger, more experienced club -- actually located in Albuquerque. Our much smaller, younger, strikingly handsome, novice club, from an Albuquerque suburb, would not and could not pull off a Nats. But, come to think of it, if the greater Albuquerque club hosted a Nats, I'd go.
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A couple of us spend about an hour discussing this yesterday. We hit these points.
First, the days of the $99 hotel room are gone. I recall the wailing, weeping, and gnashing of teeth when the $100 barrier was broken; then again when the $125 barrier fell. I attend a number of hobby conventions each year, some are my wife's conventions. We consider a room at $175 to be expected and have paid in the $225 range. Then add taxes and fees.
Second, there is indeed a gap between those who want to economize and those who are willing to pay for the convention hotel. I find, at IPMS and other cons, that there are some who decide to stay in a relatively cheap venue ... but who want the "full" convention hotel experience. I see it when lobby and hallway seating is filled by 7am by attendees staying elsewhere and then parking (or having someone else park) in that seat for the entire day. I see it when the fast food wrappers pile up and overflow the trash bins. Hey, I do it myself; but I don't go out to get fast food for every meal. However, for Nats, the host hotel is usually booked within hours of the rooms being released (or several days before...but that is another issue) ... so room nights should not be a problem. Unless......
Third, there is the practice of IPMS members reserving hotel rooms for the Nats, just in case, and then cancelling two weeks out. I was on a Nats convention hotel waiting list and got called about 10 days out and told that there were ample rooms suddenly available. Too late. These cancellations must cut the room night count.
Fourth, I have no insight into the accumulation of cousins arriving at the registration table. I don't doubt that it happens. The only thing these newly acquired relatives miss is entering the contest. It seems that the host chapter needs to assess the risk and charge accordingly.
Fifth, it appears that, as the daily cost of a Nats has increases, folks are dropping days at the beginning and end of the convention. When leaving a day early or arriving a day later saves $200+, a shortened stay is tempting.
Sixth, and this is my main concern, it seems that there are fewer chapters willing to host a Nats. The rotation of East, West, and Middle has eroded away. In our Region, getting a chapter to host a Regional is now an issue ... typically a regularly repeating chapter contest is dubbed a "Regional". This Regional offers nothing beyond what the recurring local contest offers .... no additional categories or awards.
HST, I am personally willing to pay more and stay longer when the Nats city offers attractions that I haven't experienced before. I'm familiar with NOLA; I'd go back in a heartbeat. I'd love to check out Nashville or Knoxville or New York or Boston or Boise or SLC or a dozen other cities. I've grown fond of Omaha over the years. Not everyone has my POV. However things evolve, I am very grateful to the host chapters who do the immense amount of work and are sometimes rewarded by negative comments that the Nats was not perfect. Good on you guys!
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The Northwest? Washington, Oregon, Idaho?
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Ralph has it.
I don't do things exactly as he does, but I get all the same steps in. For example, with acrylics, after I've finished a color, I flush the brush with water, then thinner/cleaner, then water again. And I lube my brush at the end of a session -- or, if I've laid on four or five colors, after about every fourth color.
For the new BKB rule category
in Ships
Posted
14: Bases – in General. Bases will be allowed in all categories and will not
be considered in the judging, except in the Vignette/Diorama
(Small/Large Composition) Categories. A base may be a piece of
undecorated wood, plastic or glass or it may simulate the natural surface
on which the prototype would be found. However, nothing other than that
basic surface may be used. ... Ships may be displayed in water (no dry
docks). The base must not be the predominant feature of the entry and
must be of a size proportionate to the model. ... So, if you want to compete in a single-subject category, don’t
make a Vignette to see how far you can push the boundary
In light of this, I note you have waves breaking over the sides of the model. I'd say that moves the model from a simple water surface to an integrated kit/base .. Thus a vignette -- but the Head Ship Judge is the man who knows. More problematic is the drilling out the cranes and funnel tops -- again, the Head Judge is the person who will make that decision.