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pcotcher

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Everything posted by pcotcher

  1. I do think the "wives" angle throws this off a good bit, as they do attend the banquet, but are rarely entered in the contest. Additionally, the wives do attend the awards show (as do family members). This year, my daughter was the only entrant in the family, yet there were four of us total that wanted to see at least the juniors part of the show. For Columbus, they are space constrained by the facility. They put on an excellent show. Despite the challenges with setup and tear down, everything else ran very well, and attendance was as good as it always is at the Columbus show. The only other place they might have had a space to hold the awards show is in the atrium area outside the contest room. I remember that space being pretty big. Also, for as much as I didn't like paying for the banquet in Virginia Beach only to be moved to a different spot for the awards show, this may be a model to be considered on a go-forward basis when the banquet room is too small.
  2. Jim - because I'm your friend and can get away with this, you need to think of this statement in connection with your concerns about "western nationals" - saying it "is what it is" about the banquet is the same thing as saying "is what it is" about the west. That said, I know a LOT of folks that don't want to spend the money on the standard hotel "rubber chicken" banquet, but do want access to the awards presentation. I am in TOTAL agreement with Mike Moore's statement that if you pay to register, you should have a seat at the awards show. And buying a banquet ticket doesn't always work that way, as in Virginia Beach, I remember buying the banquet ticket only to get shuffled down the hall to a theater. That same group of friends decided that very year that they were never buying a banquet ticket again. They make a point to find a local high-end restaurant and make a big evening of that before coming back for the awards show. it's a tough thing as there are contractual obligations that have to be met, but the awards show should be very much viewed as an open event and exclusive from the banquet.
  3. Not suggesting ignoring at all. And yes, you'll get superb attendance from California for a California show. That eight to ten hour circle will get almost everyone up and down the coast. However, as soon as you go east, that's where those driving circles fail. Again, I'm not advocating against the west, just pointing out realities. And no, Omaha isn't the greatest example of what I'm talking about. But, if you're comparing Indianapolis, Dayton, Columbus or even Atlanta, that story changes quite a bit. And avoiding tourist destinations might help a bit. But I'd have to compare real numbers to know. Sacramento might work. But going back to the point of comparison between Phoenix and Omaha, it was all about cost, Phoenix is just a more costly destination, and based on business travel, I believe most of those western destinations would suffer from the same cost issues. All that said, I was trying to move beyond that discussion - if you read my post above, it was more about no longer arguing about the "where" or the "who" of the national convention, but rather about improving the attraction.
  4. Oh and as far as 2018 (and maybe 2019 as well) is concerned, I'm thinking you're going to see some very strong bids from non-western parts of the country.
  5. On the west - Jim continues to make this "for the sake of $$$." Fact is it costs more to hold a convention out there. So it's not just about money or more profit or anything like that it's about cost. If you compare a nominal western bid with a nominal midwestern bid, it's just going to be apples and oranges. It's literally going to take a year where you have all western chapters bidding on the show in order to have a western bid look favorable. And right or wrong, if you want the most members to get to the show you hold it somewhere central more often than not. That's not to say you have to do it all the time, but that does have to be a consideration when comparing bids. I'm sure there are statistics that could be done to back that up. Just plot the members on a map and then draw driving circles around different locations and you could see what percentage of the membership is covered. It's just pure, unbiased mathematics. Does it suck, for the west? Sure it does! As has been said, the rotation at least kept the west somewhat relevant. But then quickly we started to see spots in the three-year cycle where it wasn't working, starting with Chicago back in 2001... The idea of putting the show in a centralized location and leaving it there probably just doesn't work. I believe the society would adapt, but the reality is, as the graphic showed a few pages back, that the country is just too big for it to really work - until you change attitudes about getting to the national convention. On centralized planning - I think this is something that should be at least closely reviewed. Where can we save? Where can we spend money to improve show infrastructure? Could we afford some degree of professional planning and operations if we weren't splitting the money between the national office and the local chapters? Lots of ways to structure the leadership, and the work gets lighter and lighter as it moves forward, especially if you're willing to spend a little bit to pay for the professional planning. Now - and most importantly - regardless of all this squabbling about who runs the show or where it's held, we do need to do everything we can to improve how attractive the national model show is. This is something that should be easily agreed to by everyone. We can improve the seminars, we can improve vendors, but most importantly we need to reach out to more modelers. Right now, and I'll stand behind this, IPMS is there to serve its own members and has lost track of the bigger picture of modeling. the IPMS convention is there to serve long time members and does little to sell itself to new members or unaffiliated modelers. Note, this isn't about attracting more kids to the hobby, this is about attracting more modelers to our show, and that IS an area where we can have a very positive impact without any concern toward where the show is or who is running the show.
  6. The benefits of moving to a more centralized planning system: 1. Bidding can be handled further out avoiding potential conflicts with other conventions that are coming to the same town. The two year horizon is too short. As we look at 2018 and 2019 dates here in Atlanta, there aren't many good slots. 2. Things don't have to be re-learned every year when a new host takes over. If you pull from a national pool of experienced volunteers that know how to operate the systems, then can avoid a lot of pit falls (which are mostly small) that we tend to see every year. 3. Money from the conventions really don't need to be split between local and national. And then with all of the proceeds going to the national side, some of that money can be spent on improving show infrastructure. I know the Atlanta 2005 crew spent considerable amounts of money on local infrastructure that if it was existing, we would not have had to lay that out. 4. We never have to worry about a "no bid year." 5. We can try to look to a true west coast show by looking at spots in the west where there might not be enough local support, but the right kind of facility to host a show. But honestly, after reviewing this, I'm wondering if we should be spending our efforts in other areas (which for me is a completely different set of windmills to tilt). Regardless of how we proceed with planning the national, we need to be doing everything we can to maximize the show's impact on promoting the hobby and making it more of an event that folks are excited about attending.... And that's a whole different set of issues.
  7. The issues with CCH and 31 were: Setup was severely restricted for some vendors, not getting into the rooms until as late as 6:00 on Wednesday because of overlap between when the CCH group was to shut down their event and when IPMS was to start ours. For 31, it created logistical issues again - not only did it clog the hotel rooms, elevators, etc. It did the same with area restaurants. Also, they literally took over the town, so things like load out on Saturday were restricted because they had all the loading/unloading areas congested with their busses - and a complete unwillingness on their part to allow us to load up. It was bad enough that even the Hyatt staff, which was VERY helpful, struggled to tell us where to load out. It illustrated what a small fish we were. If you were just an attendee, you probably didn't notice those things as much, but, man, vendors are important to our show, and they got several raw deals at this show.
  8. @ Ron - I agree about laying out the room, but as far as registration, I see that being required from a different area of coordination. Again, finding ways to standardize these processes is key. We're saying the same thing, just have different organization ideas. @Dick - I'm sorry, but I very much disagree that all the problems are lack of understanding of bid preparation and coordination with the 2nd VP. The problems that we're trying to overcome are not related to bidding, the problems are related to funding and manpower requirements. These are invasive on the local host at this point. 1. Bids can only happen two years ahead of time, when the planning cycle on some facilities are 5 years plus, it becomes difficult to get good dates. Plus, we end up being shoe horned in with other conventions running at the same time - see all the issues we had at Columbus with CCH and 31. 2. Local hosts cannot fund what they need because they cannot collect until after the previous convention passes. When paying deposits, they are required when contracting with further deposits required before the one year out mark. Often times, these are hard to make - even with the seed money that can come from IPMS. I recall this being an issue with deposits for the 2005 convention. We had to twist arms to make the dates work, but the one year funding horizon causes issues. 3. Legal establishment - local hosts should establish 501C3 status to make sure they're protected on the tax front. IPMS has this, local chapters don't. We spent a lot of money to get this done in Atlanta. Some other hosts have done it, others haven't. The list of liabilities from not being incorporated are long, especially for locals having to sign contracts worth tens of thousands. 4. Equipment rentals - if the equipment could be standardized, it would make things much smoother. Also is an unnecessary expense to have year in and year out. 5. Further standardization and training on registration processes - admittedly this one can be corrected either way, but each year, it feels like some of the local host folks have no idea how to process registrations, simple things like name tags are major headaches. This could be dramatically streamlined with more national oversight. I'm not suggesting that we have one or two people take it over, nor had I ever said that it should be done as a way to get free travel and room nights for the show. However, if we spread the volunteering over all the folks that have experience, it does become more workable. Maybe it's just a simple as the national office being wiling to put some funding into the show's infrastructure. Pay for a professional staff to run the show, if they can run something like the 31 show, then we'd be simple by comparison. All the registration, etc. could be drastically simplified. Moving the convention around gives you the local flavor, having a local host should not impact local flavor in any way.
  9. If you talk through the roles that will help determine what is really needed. For example, the contest coordinator is the local role that facilitates the communication between the Competition Committee, the judges and the results (Eileen) folks. If you've centralized the convention management, I honestly am not certain this role is needed. The contest is the ONE part of the show that runs pretty smoothly. To truly plan this we need to talk through a typical nationals project plan, what happens when, and decide how each step would be impacted by this change. Once you have that, you'll have a better idea of what the volunteer requirements would be. Again, this will be complicated and just like running a locally hosted national convention for the first couple of years, but then after you smooth process, the workload will go down. Standing by!
  10. Many hands make light work. And if the system becomes repeatable, it gets a lot easier. I know when we ran our first few local shows way back in the early 90s, they were a big hassle and a lot of work. By the time we got to our big annual regional events leading into the 2005 show, the shows were pretty easy, as we just did the same thing every year. I absolutely believe this becomes the same situation with the National Convention. There will be some trying times the first couple of years, but after we work out the kinks it'll be a lot easier. And if we pull from the pool of past national coordinators, then it will be easy to spread the load over those "many hands." In order to make this effective, we have to stop thinking about the current "bid" cycle, and start thinking about the shows as a continuum.
  11. And it's not just losing bids, it's certain things that can happen between the national organization and the host chapter(s) - I've heard from a couple of recent hosts that they're not going to hold the show any longer because of things that happened behind the scenes.
  12. I'll quote myself here - I'll volunteer to head up a team to determine the feasibility of this. Ron's on the right track with his approach. Atlanta is already considering a bid, maybe that's the time to have the national team run the show and then hand off from there. if we write up a dedicated RFP that we can send to host cities, then they can get in the process of bidding for the show. Again, CITIES, not CLUBS should be bidding. FWIW, short of one line of code, we did have the biggest and most successful show in IPMS/USA history. Paul
  13. And Jim - you're actually making my point for me, as you just argued both sides in one response (I love that about you). We do need folks to start treating this like a national convention, and come our regardless of where it is, but the behavior that we've build (right or wrong) is that as long as the convention wanders around the country, members feel like they can wait until it gets close. We have essentially "trained" that behavior into the membership. Now, I am definitely not against a west coast show, I'd like the excuse to get out there, hopefully it'll happen in the right place and with the right financial structure. Now, making the convention more attractive - that's a whole different discussion. And that requires eating some sacred cows. We'll save that for another time. I think we need to improve the infrastructure and operation of the existing convention first and THEN, look at ways to make it a more attractive show.
  14. I think it's more than 3-4 people, but you're right, plus if you're no longer shepherding local chapters through their bids, hosting and financial wrap-up, the focus of the elected office becomes very different. Our staff for 2005 consisted of: Chairman Chairman Emeritus (somebody that had done it before - and could advise on pitfalls) Coordinators For: Vendors Sponsors Facilities Hotels Seminars Raffle Publicity Contest Finance Legal Some get simplified (particularly finance and legal) if you don't have to reinvent the 501C3 wheel each time a new host comes, but others are going to be required on an ongoing basis. I am not advocating that we put this load on the national officers, but rather we build a convention committee out of those with past experience. I'll even volunteer to work with those interested to build the proposals of how it would work. Obviously, it would be VERY different from the host chapter method, so when considering this, you really must decouple your thinking as to how the "old way" works, as this would be VERY different (but to the attendees the convention would be the same).
  15. Jim - if we're approaching this thing without concern for "fair" and just putting this thing as close to the most people as we can, then yes, we do cater to the masses. I'm not saying it works for everyone, but if you're taking a strict, "do the best you can for the most" then that's the ballpark you're playing in. Also for vendors, flying is different, as then not only do you have the expense of flying, you also have the expense of shipping your stuff, which cuts way into profits. Wish there was a better solution, but I can see the economics (higher prices) of western shows really limiting our options out there - all the travel and population center stuff aside.
  16. Agreed, but throwing all the central location stuff aside, we REALLY should look at some of the other things they do there, as I think we leave a lot of modelers behind with the contest-centric format (among other things) - but that's a whole separate discussion.
  17. Good points Ron - however, I think these are more easily solved than you may think..... National Convention Committee should not be run by the executive board, but by those that have experience. You have a pool of past convention chairmen (myself included) that would be good candidates to ROTATE through for supervising the national committee. Same thing with vendors, sponsorships, etc. Also, when you take on the economies of planning multiple events at the same time, the jobs will actually get far more simple year after year. Registration becomes more streamlined and a consistent repeatable process. Once you register for the convention once, you're registered for all future conventions, as it's the same system over and over. The convention website becomes an extension of the national website, etc. Sponsors can sponsor the same category year over year, etc. etc. etc. So again, you pull the staff from volunteers, but from volunteers that have done it before. In the short term you pull volunteers from the national pool, and then over time as the process gets more canned, you can farm it out to a professional planning group or similar. In the early term, you spend the money on infrastructure - adapt our growing and improving systems so they can run on mobile devices and develop apps to help us run the show, etc. It would sure appear that we have the money to do this, and again, if we are no longer splitting the money with a host chapter (or group of chapters), there will be more money by which the national organization can use to continually improve the management of the show.
  18. I think a big factor impacting the west coast is cost - I know when I travel for business it is FAR more expensive to attend meetings out there, than when I travel elsewhere. In fairness, it's no different from going up east. Cost is a killer. Not only hotels are expensive, but travel becomes more expensive for a majority of attendees - particularly vendors (I know we are second class citizens - but it's worth noting). The other factor, and this is the less fair part is where the population is. If you have a true west coast show, then those up and down the coast can easily attend, but for the rest of the country it requires flying. When the population center of the country is in eastern Missouri, that's a long way from the majority of the people. Put a 12 hour driving circle around a place like Indianapolis and see how many people you get. Now, put the same circle around Anywhere in the west. Fair or unfair, there's just no comparison.
  19. Actually not true - they've only had a modest increase since 2005, we paid $3900 per hall, per day, and now it's $4200 per hall per day. (he says cringing for the fact that it's actually being talked about here)
  20. Interesting to read the comments here, as they always are after the National Convention. I, for one, tend to support a more centralized show, or series of shows, I also support getting away from the local host model, as for local chapters, the ask is getting more onerous all the time. I do read all the comments about wanting the convention to wander as that's the basis for some people's vacations - we were actually returning to Columbus from Michigan, so we did the same thing this year. That said, there's a fallacy with the wandering model that I have not seen addressed. Right now our NATIONAL convention is really a super-regional. A lot of folks wait for the show to come to their part of the country to attend. So I get the west coast angst over Phoenix getting skipped, as it's been a while since we were out there. But, we've patterned folks into this way of thinking, which means we can begin to pattern them the other direction... As far as 1st tier vs. 2nd tier cities (which it what the meeting planning world would call it) - that does come down to expense. Somebody needs to look up their MSAs to understand that we've had shows in some of the biggest cities in the country - Atlanta, Phoenix and Chicago are all top ten. But the expenses are definitely higher. We've done some investigating here in Atlanta as there is at least some degree of interest in holding another show here, but the expenses are definitely high - just the two meeting halls for the duration of the show are nearly $35,000 - that is before you add on ANYTHING else. I've also burst one common bubble in making these calls - one which I was espousing as recently as the Columbus show - that multi-year contracts would save us money. That is actually not the case! In talking with the convention bureau here, the facility expense does not come down if you sign a multi-year deal. There may be other concessions, but, nothing all that major. The convention/meeting planning business is booming, and facilities are all booked and not standing idle. So, with those things in mind, the central or big-city convention may not be as practical as some (myself included) think. That said, some things still have to change - we need to look no further than the lessons learned from Columbus: 1 - The two year planning horizon is broken. Finding space two years out in a desirable time slot is difficult. Columbus's scheduling issues with the rooms were all because the facility had another convention booked 2.5 years ahead of us (the CCH group that was in all our rooms up to Wednesday morning). 2 - The one year promotion/funding model is broken - Waiting until after the previous show is passed is a severe problem for most chapters, as when you book the space upon successfully bidding, you cannot collect any funds until a year later. Often times over the course of that year, you have further deposits and payments that are required. While hosts that have leftover surplus may be able to absorb the expense, many chapters cannot. 3 - We are a SMALL organization. Never was this more apparent than when the pink ladies descended on Columbus (31 was the name of the group). No more hotel rooms, 2-3 hour waits in restaurants, etc. There are so many organizations out there with much larger memberships and much deeper pockets, we have to face the fact that we need to find places that can support us, while avoiding those kinds of conflicts. 4 - We reinvent the convention every year. There are so many things that have gotten far more standardized - such as the way the national contest runs - but there are still things that seem to go through the reinvention/relearning process year after year. Largely because we rely on different hosts to run the show. So, given what I've learned since we've been back, I'm not as certain as I was before about the one-location show - I think it requires more conversation, but, there are other steps that we can take in the interim to help us improve the show: 1. Lose the local host. There are enough members to run volunteer slots, with any number of incentives to help build the volunteer group - I read some great ones from Gil above. 2. Fund improvements in show infrastructure through the monies that have come in from past shows. While nobody wants to touch our nest egg, if ALL of the surplus goes to the national organization, then there is more money that can be applied to improving show infrastructure. 3. If we continue to move the show, let cities bid on the show, instead of local chapters. Any city with any kind of facilities have the capacity to do this. Let the cities compete to give us the best options. We don't need anyone on the ground in the host city except for a couple of times, especially if it's a city where we've been before. 4. Build a central committee, much like the competition committee to run the show. If you centralize operations like sponsorships, vendor coordination, etc. those operations get much easier. Plus you can have multi-year contracts and signups from vendors, etc. as you're no longer worrying about the "next show" overshadowing the current show. 5. Conventions can be planned and laid out YEARS in advance, which removes all the issues for space conflicts. 6. With a little success, we can get to the point where we can pay a management company to run our show with only oversight from the national organization. And with a volunteer pool, this expense doesn't have to be large, it just needs to manage the show. Making this change would be much easier and more digestible for the membership, plus, we no longer worry about burning out host chapters. I know after 2005 (and some of YOUR comments), Atlanta chapters took big hit. I can find similar comments and issues with a number of other hosts (at least one host from recent years is swearing "never again") - that needs to go away. And, of course, this is only the infrastructural changes that we need - I'll save the more sacred stuff for some other time. Just my brain dump for today...
  21. Gil - I think most people get it, but there are a lot of the "not everyone will be happy set" that seem to think that this is a limited group that we are talking about, or that it's just one guy complaining about the convention date. If we move it up into July, we might make it selectively harder for some, but open the door back up to teachers and parents with younger children. Plus, I'm not sure how many folks in the older set realize when school starts now, and that the date has become a really common time slot over the last eight years to the point where a potential bidder might think that's just the default and desired date for the convention. As for running for the board, we will have to see how crazy I'm feeling in another couple of years when that cycle comes around again. I've requested some data to at least begin taking a look at a few of my assertions so that I'm working from facts and not guesses.
  22. Okay, let me re-ground the ORIGINAL point of the discussion. I had originally pointed out that one factor that a potential bidder should take into account is that school years start earlier and earlier, and as a result those of us with school age children can be blocked from attending as a result. Much as I would love to be in Loveland this week, I cannot because of school, and already looking forward to 2014, I may be in trouble there, as the dates (as I understand them) will lay over the FIRST two days of school (which here in Forsyth county, GA, are likely to be August 7th and 8th, 2014). Being a single dad aside, I had a conversation with one of my typical nationals travelling friends, and in his case, the first days of school are tough to get away from, due to the chaos. Leaving the kids behind with the wife, saying I'm goin' on vacation while y'all figure out the first days of school is a tough sell even in the happiest and most congenial of house holds. So, again, my recommendation is that we COUNSEL future bidders to take another look at available dates in July. I contend that the August dates have become somewhat "institutionalized" and that we need to at least be open-minded enough Looking back at the rates that we were presented with for 2005, there was NO financial difference between July and August. I understand this may not be the case everywhere, but, in a sample set of one, the "better" deal arguement goes away. And combining family vacation with nationals wasn't even what I was talking about above either. If we want kids to participate in our hobby, then we have to have the nationals scheduled when kids can attend. Right now that's not happening. But, hey, we're happy with the way things are, as it's okay for all us old dudes? And for every contrary arguement to other nationals fixes, I have a counter. I just doubt anyone here would want to listen, as we're all too comfortable trying to hold on to the way things were. As one of my friends suggested, the only way you're going to be able to fix this Paul is to run for the eboard - and trust me, the old guard of IPMS doesn't want me on the eboard, as I'd be looking to make some SWEEPING changes. Happy to have a discussion with those open-minded enough to listen. Paul
  23. Rusty - I hear what you're saying, but the debate SHOULD come up every few years. Times change, economics change, any number of factors could shift to make a different model more viable. Just because we've dismissed it once doesn't mean we shouldn't periodically investigate it to see if there's a better way? My gut tells me that beyond just centralizing the location and going to longer term contracts, there are loads of other things we could do to make the convention better - unfortunately we get stuck in the "that's always the way we've done it." mode, and we don't like having debates about if there's a better way, so after 50 years, little has changed. Our unwillingness to change is a big factor in the reason why we've seen so many other modeling organizations spring up over the several years. Used to be just the NNL shows, now AMPS has a whole network of shows. There was a day when they used to ALL be under the IPMS umbrella. We're getting pretty far afield though of my original assertion: We need to try to move back to July dates as I think MORE of the membership can attend because of school conflicts that arise with August convention dates. The August dates are something that I think have become unintentionally institutionalized over the last decade, and I'm just putting the word out there to potential impact that they have.
  24. If other organizations are setting dates years in advance, why aren't we? There is SERIOUS economic benefit to going to longer term rates. We also need to find somebody in the society that's good with contracts and negotiation. When we put together our bid here in Atlanta, we had just that - and it made a BIG difference in the rates we paid and how we were able to rebate the convention hall space, etc. Our members that complain about higher rates or similar changes in the national convention aren't paying attention to the fact that it's getting harder and harder to find anyone to bid on the convention. Something is going to have to be done soon to reinvent the convention, the old model just doesn't appear sustainable any longer. The argument that we can't sell enough room nights is rubbish too - we functionally sold out the Waverly and the Sheraton, AND had to add an overflow hotel. We paid for the hall space from rebates against the room nights. So it CAN be done. AND that only gets better if you have a longer term contract. Longer term contract also allows for completely different promotional models, longer term contracts with vendors, etc. etc. etc. The current model that says you can't promote or sell for a show until the previous show has passed is one of the major constraints that a host faces, as often times you have to contract and start planning for this two even three years ahead of the convention date, but you can't do any actual sales until a year before hand. That constraint disappears with a change in our model. It might be painful the first year, but I suspect after getting through the transition, we'd find the convention would be bigger and stronger as members would quickly realize there was no "waiting until it comes to my part of the country." It would be a TRUE national convention. Properly promoted, the draw would be there. This "it's always the way we've done it thinking" is not a good reason to continue with an unsustainable model.
  25. And the "graying" as Gil so delicately puts it, of our society is NOT a great thing. We should be making sure that we have this event to as many kids as possible, and right now that is NOT the case! There's a whole separate discussion about us using this show as a marketing tool for the improvement and expansion of the society, but I'll save that for another time.
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